Maximizing Magicka Detonation Damage

Parsifal · June 2015

I'm trying to make a PVP support build around maximizing my damage with inevitable detonation. I recently got the skill, but I seem to be doing way less damage than most people are putting out. I'm currently at 3k spell power w/ 2 nirnhoned swords (w/ entropy up), and I seem to crit for around 6k to players or 12k on mobs on average (vs. the 15-20k+ that lots of players seem to be achieving). I haven't seen a single hit on a player that was higher than 8k yet. Does anyone have any advice on why my damage might be so low, and what I can do to improve it?

A few comments I have:
I only have 5% magic damage and 5% spell pen. from champ. points (I'm mainly a PvE healer so I haven't specced too much into dps)
I haven't been using spell crit/damage potions with bombs
My tooltip for the skill shows 11k base damage
I have 29k magicka with my current build
I have been using structured entropy right before casting it for the damage boost
I use all light armor for the spell pen. and crit boost

Domander · June 2015

Unfortunately inevitable detonation isn't very good, all the player needs to do is block to negate a lot of the damage AND reduce the damage that it does to anyone around.

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2015

Inevitable detonation is very easy to block, as you see it 4 sec before you actually have to block. Shadowy disguise + proximity detonation will probably lead to much higher damage numbers as your enemies don't see it comming.

Snit · June 2015

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

Tankqull · June 2015

dont mixup inevitable detonation and proximity detonation dmg, the first delves for around 6k while the second one is at around 12k.

the advanntage of inevitable is that you can apply it up to 4 people simultaniously - wich does hurt a blob.

Rylana · June 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

dont mixup inevitable detonation and proximity detonation dmg, the first delves for around 6k while the second one is at around 12k.

the advanntage of inevitable is that you can apply it up to 4 people simultaniously - wich does hurt a blob.

My proxdets do 18-20k >=]

But thats on a glass cannon suicide bomber

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

So a 'bad' opponent is someone who doesn't exploit Nirnhoned?

Jaiden · June 2015

Lol

Parsifal · June 2015

Domander wrote: »

Unfortunately inevitable detonation isn't very good, all the player needs to do is block to negate a lot of the damage AND reduce the damage that it does to anyone around.

Oh wow, I didn't know that it would reduce it for all players. So if someone blocks prox. det, does it go through their block? The main reason I went for inevitable was because in full light armor, I prefer to keep a bit of range. It sounds like it may be better to switch though and just charge into a zerg right before it goes off.

Tankqull wrote: »

dont mixup inevitable detonation and proximity detonation dmg, the first delves for around 6k while the second one is at around 12k.

the advanntage of inevitable is that you can apply it up to 4 people simultaniously - wich does hurt a blob.

How do you apply it to so many people at once? With the cast time, I can only get it on two people at once, and by then the first one is expiring.

Snit · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

So a 'bad' opponent is someone who doesn't exploit Nirnhoned?

Nirnhoned is not an exploit. It's a bad decision by ZOS, but it's hardly cheating to wear it.

I hate it, too. I've been playing a magicka sorc since beta, and I'm now switching over to a stamina NB. Magicka is great against bad opponents -- the ones who can't (or won't) regear to suit the current game, who don't know to dodge roll overload, etc. But magicka dps is far behind the curve right now for group play. It's all about Steel Tornado

If you take a long look at the champion point system, this trend will continue. Perhaps ZOS will address it someday, but it took them a year to realize how overpowered magicka builds were from launch.

Domander · June 2015

Parsifal wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Unfortunately inevitable detonation isn't very good, all the player needs to do is block to negate a lot of the damage AND reduce the damage that it does to anyone around.

Oh wow, I didn't know that it would reduce it for all players. So if someone blocks prox. det, does it go through their block? The main reason I went for inevitable was because in full light armor, I prefer to keep a bit of range. It sounds like it may be better to switch though and just charge into a zerg right before it goes off.

Tankqull wrote: »

dont mixup inevitable detonation and proximity detonation dmg, the first delves for around 6k while the second one is at around 12k.

the advanntage of inevitable is that you can apply it up to 4 people simultaniously - wich does hurt a blob.

How do you apply it to so many people at once? With the cast time, I can only get it on two people at once, and by then the first one is expiring.

The block will reduce its damage, and the explosion hitting others is based off that damage, so if they block and it ends up doing half damage, that's what it will hit those nearby. (Who can also block and reduce it even more) It can also be reduced a lot by mistform.

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

So a 'bad' opponent is someone who doesn't exploit Nirnhoned?

Nirnhoned is not an exploit. It's a bad decision by ZOS, but it's hardly cheating to wear it.

I hate it, too. I've been playing a magicka sorc since beta, and I'm now switching over to a stamina NB. Magicka is great against bad opponents -- the ones who can't (or won't) regear to suit the current game, who don't know to dodge roll overload, etc. But magicka dps is far behind the curve right now for group play. It's all about Steel Tornado

If you take a long look at the champion point system, this trend will continue. Perhaps ZOS will address it someday, but it took them a year to realize how overpowered magicka builds were from launch.

Nirnhoned is confirmed as not working as intended. If it's not working as intended by the people who implemented it, one can call it a bug. Making use of said bug in order to gain an advantage over others is what amounts to exploiting. I'm no fool and I know the tryhards will do anything to gain said advantage and so they won't stop using Nirnhoned, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's not an exploit.

Source

Vis · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

Well, in my defense I don't use nirnhoned out of principle and my sheid/low stamina makes it that I prefer not to block. It does mean I'm bad.

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Vis wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

Well, in my defense I don't use nirnhoned out of principle and my sheid/low stamina makes it that I prefer not to block. It does mean I'm bad.

Yeah, same here. Crafted a few Nirnhoned pieces, noticed how ridiculous it was and went back to being bad.

PainfulFAFA · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

So a 'bad' opponent is someone who doesn't exploit Nirnhoned?

Nirnhoned is not an exploit. It's a bad decision by ZOS, but it's hardly cheating to wear it.

I hate it, too. I've been playing a magicka sorc since beta, and I'm now switching over to a stamina NB. Magicka is great against bad opponents -- the ones who can't (or won't) regear to suit the current game, who don't know to dodge roll overload, etc. But magicka dps is far behind the curve right now for group play. It's all about Steel Tornado

If you take a long look at the champion point system, this trend will continue. Perhaps ZOS will address it someday, but it took them a year to realize how overpowered magicka builds were from launch.

This...
Zergs are starting to catch on.

Septimus_Magna · June 2015

Prox Detonation is the morph you want, try to charge into a group and cast entropy just before it goes off.
Vamps often combine Prox Detonation and Invis Bats, its pretty easy to kill a few random guys with this, especially if you have 3k spell damage.

Personally I find a pure spell damage setup not so effective in pvp because I miss the magicka regen. I have a setup which gives me 1.8k magicka regen with 2.4k spell damage (buffed) and I usually crit for 12k with Prox Detonation.

Snit · June 2015

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

This...
Zergs are starting to catch on.

Starting?

On my main, a five-nirn magicka sorc, the only significant magicka damage I take is prox det and stuff cast by the current (sorc) emperor. My death recaps are filled with five steel tornadoes from four different players. My own damage is awful*, even when I pop on my full spellpower kit (four MK, four healer, 2 torug, master staff).

It took ZOS a year to address the superiority of magicka from launch. You can now wait to see how long it takes to fix this, or you can switch to a stamina build/ main. I am really enjoying my shiny new (currently VR6) bosmer

* to clarify, it's awful against the good groups we face. A spellpower build destroys the poorly geared and inattentive

CN_Daniel · June 2015

Hit entropy right before you charge your proximity detonation for the big badda boom. And have 30k mana with 2400 spell power.

big badda boom.

k2blader · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Find bad opponents. The ones who don't have full nirnhoned and haven't learned to block.

You can wreck those dudes

So a 'bad' opponent is someone who doesn't exploit Nirnhoned?

Lava, oh em gee, we agree. This is a big one too. You made my forum day. lol

k2blader · June 2015

Zeni has said nirn is not working as intended. If you intentionally choose to use nirn, knowing it isn't working as intended, you are exploiting.

Frankly, because much of the ESO PvP community is either fine with exploiting or takes the "apathetic" approach (much like US voters and voting) it is safe to assume at least half of your opponents in PvP are indeed exploiting in some way. Doesn't make for a quality or a fun game.

Septimus_Magna · June 2015

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Hit entropy right before you charge your proximity detonation for the big badda boom. And have 30k mana with 2400 spell power.

big badda boom.

Go into sneak, cast Prox Detonation, streak/charge into the group and cast entropy just before Prox Detonation goes off and follow up with Invis Batswarm.

For sorcs streak is really usefull because when you streak into a group while hidden players get stunned which prevents them from blocking the Prox Detonation explosion (if they dont break-free within a second). This is the best way to increase the damage in my experience. I also try to stun enemies with streak just before my normal curse goes of for example. Casting entropy gives a 20% damage boost and Invis Bats also hits quite hard with 2.4-3k spell power.

Rylana · June 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Prox Detonation is the morph you want, try to charge into a group and cast entropy just before it goes off.
Vamps often combine Prox Detonation and Invis Bats, its pretty easy to kill a few random guys with this, especially if you have 3k spell damage.

Personally I find a pure spell damage setup not so effective in pvp because I miss the magicka regen. I have a setup which gives me 1.8k magicka regen with 2.4k spell damage (buffed) and I usually crit for 12k with Prox Detonation.

The high damage setups work really well if your group is focused around move bomb move bomb.

Sustained group fights usually favor whoever has the most barriers really, more than stat pools.

For solo or small group play a high damage proxdet build is pretty hard to use effectively, can still be lethal, but yeah sustain matters in those fights.

Domander · June 2015

Snit wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

This...
Zergs are starting to catch on.

Starting?

On my main, a five-nirn magicka sorc, the only significant magicka damage I take is prox det and stuff cast by the current (sorc) emperor. My death recaps are filled with five steel tornadoes from four different players. My own damage is awful*, even when I pop on my full spellpower kit (four MK, four healer, 2 torug, master staff).

It took ZOS a year to address the superiority of magicka from launch. You can now wait to see how long it takes to fix this, or you can switch to a stamina build/ main. I am really enjoying my shiny new (currently VR6) bosmer

* to clarify, it's awful against the good groups we face. A spellpower build destroys the poorly geared and inattentive

Maybe if less players were exploiting nirnhoned...

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Zeni has said nirn is not working as intended. If you intentionally choose to use nirn, knowing it isn't working as intended, you are exploiting.

Frankly, because much of the ESO PvP community is either fine with exploiting or takes the "apathetic" approach (much like US voters and voting) it is safe to assume at least half of your opponents in PvP are indeed exploiting in some way. Doesn't make for a quality or a fun game.

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

Aside from what ZoS actually said, it would be really difficult for them to claim that it doesn't work as intended when nirnhoned works exactly as it tooltips.

Further, ZoS defines exploiting as taking advantage of a bug. A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

Failure = physical change in hardware.
Fault = erroneous state of hardware or software resulting from failures, environment, etc.
Error = manifestation of a fault within a program or data structure.
Flaw = improper design.

Without knowing that any of these things happened, which a non-ZoS player can't unless ZoS publically states that it happened, the only time a player can be accused of exploiting is if the end result is historically known to be the result of a bug. For example, duping.

You might be trying to say immoral or unethical, which is a very different debate. However, an exploit nirnhoned is not.

Edit: Some people also classify coding mistakes as an error. For example, a code monkey moved the decimal the wrong way.

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

ZOS states it's working differently than intended, so no matter what kind of acrobatics you try, it will remain not working as intended.

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

ZOS states it's working differently than intended, so no matter what kind of acrobatics you try, it will remain not working as intended.

Your ignoring the facts to artificially inflate your position.

There are many ways the anti-nirn crowd can cast people using nirnhoned in a negative light without wrongly using terms from the code of conduct and terms of service.

Some posters are implying that people using nirn, with knowledge of ZoS's statement concerning changing the way it works, are doing something that violates the agreements they are a party to, in a way that is punishable. That's a despicable scare tactic.

You can argue ethics, character and a host of other social based values. However, saying it isn't working as intended is false based on the available facts. It clearly works as intended.

Lava_Croft · June 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

ZOS states it's working differently than intended, so no matter what kind of acrobatics you try, it will remain not working as intended.

Your ignoring the facts to artificially inflate your position.

There are many ways the anti-nirn crowd can cast people using nirnhoned in a negative light without wrongly using terms from the code of conduct and terms of service.

Some posters are implying that people using nirn, with knowledge of ZoS's statement concerning changing the way it works, are doing something that violates the agreements they are a party to, in a way that is punishable. That's a despicable scare tactic.

You can argue ethics, character and a host of other social based values. However, saying it isn't working as intended is false based on the available facts. It clearly works as intended.

ZOS has acknowledged it's not working as intended, so that's the end of that. Keep at it with the acrobatics though.

ToRelax · June 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

ZOS states it's working differently than intended, so no matter what kind of acrobatics you try, it will remain not working as intended.

Your ignoring the facts to artificially inflate your position.

There are many ways the anti-nirn crowd can cast people using nirnhoned in a negative light without wrongly using terms from the code of conduct and terms of service.

Some posters are implying that people using nirn, with knowledge of ZoS's statement concerning changing the way it works, are doing something that violates the agreements they are a party to, in a way that is punishable. That's a despicable scare tactic.

You can argue ethics, character and a host of other social based values. However, saying it isn't working as intended is false based on the available facts. It clearly works as intended.

Lol, I would scare everyone away from using nirn I can, problem is that they know all to well ZOS doesn't care about exploiters and even protects them.

MormondPayne_EP · June 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Zeni has said nirn is not working as intended. If you intentionally choose to use nirn, knowing it isn't working as intended, you are exploiting.

Frankly, because much of the ESO PvP community is either fine with exploiting or takes the "apathetic" approach (much like US voters and voting) it is safe to assume at least half of your opponents in PvP are indeed exploiting in some way. Doesn't make for a quality or a fun game.

ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

In other words, it works just like they intended, it just has a greater impact on the game then they thought it would.

Aside from what ZoS actually said, it would be really difficult for them to claim that it doesn't work as intended when nirnhoned works exactly as it tooltips.

Further, ZoS defines exploiting as taking advantage of a bug. A software bug is an error, flaw, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.

Failure = physical change in hardware.
Fault = erroneous state of hardware or software resulting from failures, environment, etc.
Error = manifestation of a fault within a program or data structure.
Flaw = improper design.

Without knowing that any of these things happened, which a non-ZoS player can't unless ZoS publically states that it happened, the only time a player can be accused of exploiting is if the end result is historically known to be the result of a bug. For example, duping.

You might be trying to say immoral or unethical, which is a very different debate. However, an exploit nirnhoned is not.

Edit: Some people also classify coding mistakes as an error. For example, a code monkey moved the decimal the wrong way.

"ZoS says that nirnhoned is more effective than intended, not that it isn't working as intended.

"Currently, Nirnhoned is more effective than intended. We’ll be adjusting how this works so it's not quite as powerful."

This is an oxymoron... Something cannot be working as intended and ALSO be working more effectively than intended. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF NOT WORKING AS INTENDED. Seriously, the mental backflips that people go through to try and convince themselves that they are not taking advantage of a bugged/borked/stuffed mechanic is astounding to me and angers the crap out of me.

Just own up to it and admit that you are doing it. I can't wait for the butthurt and QQ that is going to come from all the nirn-*** when they start getting copping more than 30% of magicka damage.

vaughancs · June 2015

[/quote]

This is an oxymoron... Something cannot be working as intended and ALSO be working more effectively than intended. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF NOT WORKING AS INTENDED. Seriously, the mental backflips that people go through to try and convince themselves that they are not taking advantage of a bugged/borked/stuffed mechanic is astounding to me and angers the crap out of me.

Just own up to it and admit that you are doing it. I can't wait for the butthurt and QQ that is going to come from all the nirn-*** when they start getting copping more than 30% of magicka damage.[/quote]

I agree, people are just playing semantics. If ZOS intended the ability to have say, level 5 damage, and it ends up being stronger than they thought at say, 10, then it is indeed not working as they intended, which was 5. You all know that so stop playing

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ZOS has acknowledged it's not working as intended, so that's the end of that. Keep at it with the acrobatics though.

I'll bite. Point to a source for ZoS saying it's not working as intended.

If ZoS meant 'not working as intended' they would have said 'not working as intended.' Instead they said 'more effective than intended' and that they will be changing the way nirnhoned works. They chose their words carefully.

The takeaway is that nirnhoned is working exactly as intended to permit players to increase spell resist by up to 24% per piece of crafted armor. This is supported not only by the tooltip matching the in-game effect, but because you can't mitigate 50% without nirnhoned, and it takes 3+ pieces to do it. You can reach 50% physical damage mitigation with reinforced, why wouldn't you be able to do the same with nirnhoned? It's harder to reach the cap with reinforced. However, that's clearly because there are more sources of spell penetration than physical penetration. There is no armor passive to match concentration, and no mundus buff to match apprentice.

When ZoS says Nirnhoned is more effective than intended, they clearly mean with respect to overall balance.

Here is the problem. Players are posting screenshots and anecdotal experiences that are caused by stacking mitigation not solely due to nirnhoned. People hit for 2k with a 10k tooltip and blame nirnhoned, even though the max reduction from spell resist is 50%... However, setting aside active mitigation such as blocking and health shields, magic damage is mitigated by: damage debuffs --> spell resistance --> damage reduction shields, and in that order. The API only reports active mitigation separately. So, not understanding the various ways damage can be mitigated over the cap, some people automatically assume the rest of the reduction is due to spell resists and blame nirnhoned. They blame nirnhoned because that is the most prominent, relatively recent change in the meta.

The latest changes in the meta are all magicka based. Over the last month, DK, Templar and Sorc magicka builds have seen a huge resurgence. I even see a few magicka NBs. They rely on soaking up damage while dishing 5-12k crits even on capped nirnhoned, which beats the standard high weapon damage specs easily. Granted, ZoS has also said that they are going to make it so that abilities like whip don't go through roll dodge. However, right now, if you PvP, you know that magicka builds are doing pretty well. The biggest problem I see is lack of diversity.

Some magicka players posting here probably think that ZoS is going to change the way nirnhoned works so that they suddenly hit everyone for 10k minimum across the board. I don't put it past ZoS to make that mistake, but I really doubt it's going to happen. Likely ZoS will change the way Nirnhoned increases resists so that it has diminishing returns, but people will still be able to hit the 50% mitigation cap by using sets like Nkulas. They will have to give up a little more to reach the cap, similarly to armor. A damage increase will come from spell penetration having a greater impact. However, you will still see low damage on mitigation stackers.

I play both ends. I play a VR14, geared NB and a VR14 geared Sorc. I hit less hard on the sorc, but outside of 1V1's, my time on target is much higher and I can backload a ton of damage. In 1v1's, shielding is enough to compete. Sorcs really stand in the way of the viability of other classes using magicka. So, I wasn't surprised to hear that ZoS is implementing a way to deal with shield stacking. I think it's much more likely that this change will get botched, leaving most of the sorcs posting here to regret complaining about resists...