Why veteran ranks should not be removed...

Attorneyatlawl

...but instead, just made quicker. While a high xp curve made sense back when they first were introduced to the closed beta testing and still were tuned and intended as difficult, needing a duo for most players, the subsequent and repeated nerfs pre launch brought them to a good solo state, just lengthy. Eventually after launch they were given another large global nerf and many boss encounters were simplified and made even easier still, while attribute and skill points were added for each rank.

At that point, they became extra levels that just had out of line xp requirements compared to the normal levels, and to this day they only need to have their xp requirements and quest/point of interest rewards scaled better to speed them up to not be out of whack with the time per level of the 1-50(v1) curve. There's no need to remove them and it would be a large endeavor to even do for no tangible benefit to players while taking extra development resources.

Additionally, many veteran players already were only given a small fraction of the xp they had earned prior to the champion system by the 70 level grandfathering setup. In my case, the amount of xp my characters had earned would have totaled around 330-340 champion levels at that time, but as the limit was set to 70, not even enough for one type of critical chance bonus(!), that's what I got. A lot of people were in the same boat. Removing veteran ranks with again no real progress kept would be anther huge hit, after already having the level cap raised twice obsoleting much of our equipment and all level capped glyphs (legendary) made before each of those two raises being lowered to a tier below what the exact same materials made (I had about 20+ legendary vr10-12 glyphs, using Kuta, Kura, and essence runes which now continue to make the top tier, yet they were downgraded to vr7-9 when vr14 came along with vr10-14 being made by the exact.... same... materials!) being made literally unusable on endgame equipment overnight instead of scaling properly to their replacement versions.

Add in the more recent version 1.6 stat cap removals making older racial choices no longer sensible for your character (an Imperial could be basically as good as a Breton stat wise for magicka builds even though they didn't have that passive, because soft caps limited the gains harshly anyways, or Khajits where they had a critical damage modifier for all damage types that then was changed to six percent critical chance for only physical attacks) and it would be another very unfair and aggravating change for long time players in a long line of them already.

A few easy problems with simply removing them can be posed as questions here:

What would happen with items? Would a v1 be made as strong as a v14 item despite them being trivial to earn right now?
What about the stats? How do we fairly scale the items down to a flat level 50 maximum? Does anything less than v14 become level 49? What about items that top out at v12 now?
When do you then gain the extra skill points and attributes currently granted at each veteran rank?
How would veteran zones be changed to remain relevant to the game?
Why would the smart re-use of game content be jeopardized by making them irrelevant? (The use of other factions' PVE areas was clever as you got to experience the whole game on one character or even multiple, while not having to change factions).

There are more, but that's some food for thought for now .

Gidorick

Hey @Attorneyatlawl I COMPLETELY agree with you. Removal of VR Ranks will just mess stuff up... the problem isn't post-50 progression, it's how it's presented. To go from earning 111K for a level to 1 MILLION is a bit... well...

I just posted a new-ish concept on Veteran Rank to Level conversion.

Check it out:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-replacement-new-ish-concept#latest

Attorneyatlawl

Gidorick wrote: »

Hey @Attorneyatlawl I COMPLETELY agree with you. Removal of VR Ranks will just mess stuff up... the problem isn't post-50 progression, it's how it's presented. To go from earning 111K for a level to 1 MILLION is a bit... well...

I just posted a new-ish concept on Veteran Rank to Level conversion.

Check it out:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-replacement-new-ish-concept#latest

Thanks for the reply @Gidorick! I'll take a look over your thread a little later on today and give you some feedback on it, too.

MCMancub

The problem with veteran levels has nothing to do with how many there are or how long it takes to get through them. The problem is what you're forced to do to get through them (Cadwell's Silver/Gold).

If XP were balanced so that as soon as you hit VR1 you had the option of doing balanced PvP, pledges, Cadwell's Silver/Gold, or grinding then you could essentially start end-game at VR1 and progress at an even rate no matter what it is you choose to do. Then the veteran system would be nothing more than vertical progression in the form of new stats/skill points/gear while doing the same content you were doing before.

idk

I agree and I think what we are experiencing is another Zos moment of not thinking through their plans properly. This is the same group that trashed a full UI build for what we have now.

I have thought they would essentially make V14 into lvl 64 and require less XP to gain the ranks. However, they do not like to take the simple direct solutions.

Attorneyatlawl

MCMancub wrote: »

The problem with veteran levels has nothing to do with how many there are or how long it takes to get through them. The problem is what you're forced to do to get through them (Cadwell's Silver/Gold).

If XP were balanced so that as soon as you hit VR1 you had the option of doing balanced PvP, pledges, Cadwell's Silver/Gold, or grinding then you could essentially start end-game at VR1 and progress at an even rate no matter what it is you choose to do. Then the veteran system would be nothing more than vertical progression in the form of new stats/skill points/gear while doing the same content you were doing before.

This is also something that's been brought up before, as far as the forced quest progression and that other gameplay activities other than simply grinding mobs are only fractions (and in most cases, small ones) of the experience gain per hour of playing, as that is. I agree flagged your post . The problem is, as you said, not veteran ranks themselves but how we're made to go through them.

MCMancub

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

The problem with veteran levels has nothing to do with how many there are or how long it takes to get through them. The problem is what you're forced to do to get through them (Cadwell's Silver/Gold).

If XP were balanced so that as soon as you hit VR1 you had the option of doing balanced PvP, pledges, Cadwell's Silver/Gold, or grinding then you could essentially start end-game at VR1 and progress at an even rate no matter what it is you choose to do. Then the veteran system would be nothing more than vertical progression in the form of new stats/skill points/gear while doing the same content you were doing before.

This is also something that's been brought up before, as far as the forced quest progression and that other gameplay activities other than simply grinding mobs are only fractions (and in most cases, small ones) of the experience gain per hour of playing, as that is. I agree flagged your post . The problem is, as you said, not veteran ranks themselves but how we're made to go through them.

Technically speaking, almost all content opens up to your right as you hit VR1 (the exceptions being Trials and Craglorn), but only Cadwell's is worth doing because it is by far the fastest way to level through the veteran ranks and PvP is so unbalanced before VR14.

kodo

no,disagree. dont make xp quicker for veteran ranks.
we had enough of quick xp while going from lvl 1-50, that was super fast no matter what u did..
now, it's perfect. the progressions is exactly like it should have been from the start of the game.

Nestor

I have ESO Plus and my VR Leveling is going quite fast. My Sorcerer has gone from VR6.1 to VR11.8 just doing the first 4 zones in Gold (she was parked in Glenumbra prior to 1.6 and was just recently unretired). My Templar is already VR6 and she still has the 3rd Zone in Silver to complete. I fully expect the Templar to be at Max well before Gold is finished, and the Sorcerer should be at or close to VR13/VR14 by the time she is done with Bangkori, as I am gaining almost two VR Ranks now per zone. I do a little grinding, but mostly questing.

Could it be sped up? Sure, but I am in a situation now where all the loot I get is way below my level. Which is OK, as it is all Vendored or Deconn'd anyway, but it would be nice to get my Shiney's on Level.

Speeding up the progression is fine and all, but what about the loot? Should that scale? If so, then that would mean there would be glut of VR14 gear driving down prices. But then again, normal non dungeon set VR14 gear is cheap anyway.

What they really need to do is create a grind area in each zone and let those who want to grind, grind. And those who want to do content can keep doing that. Keep everything the same as it is now.

cozmon3c_ESO

They just need to add quests that are relevant to your alliance sabataging the other alliances, add another main story in for your alliance. Add a mian story for thieves guild and dark brother hood guild starting at lvl 50 to v14. that will give people enough insentive to actually do Vet levels and not be bored with them.

the down fall is that all main stories end at lvl 50. so you are left with just the poop quests of the other factions.

Jando

This is what i write in every thread about veteran ranks, including my own, for the last 3-4 months:

The right approach here is not to remove VR's at all, but to reduce the xp to gain each rank to something like 150K. No other system in the game needs to be changed and they can do it in a hotfix. The 14 Veteran ranks essentially become 14 regular levels.

For those who still want a challenge in Cadwell Gold/Silver content: that content can be optimized for something like VR 15-20 and then they can "battle level" all characters up appropriately when entering those zones.

Done..problem solved. No reason it should be taking this long.

Dear Zos...Veteran Ranks are ruining your game...there's an easy fix...just do it!!

Elhanan

@Attorneyatlawl you make a great case.

You address some of the common concerns people have. However, you don't address how veteran ranks (as they are now) tend to limit friends from playing together due to large differences in levels. From my understanding, a VR1 and VR14 duo would be disadvantageous from multiple perspectives (experience gains, enemy difficulty in PVE, gear obtained in dungeons, etc...). For these reasons, I think getting rid of veteran ranks would be best.

Nestor

Elhanan wrote: »

From my understanding, a VR1 and VR14 duo would be disadvantageous from multiple perspectives (experience gains, enemy difficulty in PVE, gear obtained in dungeons, etc...). For these reasons, I think getting rid of veteran ranks would be best.

They did take steps to alleviate this issue in the last patch from last Thursday

Combat & Gameplay
General

Grouped Veteran Rank player characters of any level will now receive both experience and loot credit, regardless of their contribution.

Attorneyatlawl

Elhanan wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl you make a great case.

You address some of the common concerns people have. However, you don't address how veteran ranks (as they are now) tend to limit friends from playing together due to large differences in levels. From my understanding, a VR1 and VR14 duo would be disadvantageous from multiple perspectives (experience gains, enemy difficulty in PVE, gear obtained in dungeons, etc...). For these reasons, I think getting rid of veteran ranks would be best.

Thanks for your reply, @Elhanan. The concerns you raise are again not related to Veteran Ranks in particular, but rather just how level differences work(ed) in ESO as a whole. They're fair points , however even prior to the recent patch (as @Nestor pointed out) that opened it up for full XP between any grouped veteran rank characters, there was already a five-level band in both directions that would award full XP gains to a pair of players grouped together in the veteran ranks. In other words, before the patch, if you were Veteran Rank 8 and wanted to go with a friend, they could be anywhere from Veteran Rank 5 to Veteran Rank 11 and still have gotten full XP along with you getting the same, and VR4 to VR12 for both of you to be receiving 75% XP. Now it has been made so there is no band even of that large size and it is full XP regardless of the level difference.

The "problem" (depending on one's point of view) you pointed out again, however, isn't related to veteran ranks themselves any more than normal levels where the same is and was true. A level 25 player will get drastically reduced XP and have encounters trivialized too, when grouping with say a level 40 player (although the vast majority of quest and open-world content is currently scaled to such a low difficulty that it's trivial regardless, but just for argument's sake ).

Additionally, there is the remaining and common misconception of how significant veteran ranks are in terms of damage dealt, received, or otherwise in combat. Internally, ESO regards all Veteran Ranks as "level 50". This means that you have the exact same damage modifiers as a VR1 player as you would as a VR14 one, against the same mobs. In other words, unlike normal level ranges where over a 5-level gap you suffer a significant miss chance among other changes, in the Veteran Ranks there is no such thing at all. The changes in combat effectiveness result solely from the equipment you can wear, and the vast majority of that is simply the glyph enchantments and what sets are available.

In the cases where multiple versions exist such as VR1, VR5, VR12, VR13, and VR14 of dropped sets, they are actually within a tenth of one percent of eachother if they are VR10+ sets, and the overall change from VR5 versions at legendary quality to the VR12 or VR14 ones, while there, isn't as huge as people believe. I'll edit a few pictures into here to demonstrate this shortly. The remainder comes solely from the additional 13 attribute points you get, which is +110 magicka or stamina per point allocated, or +122 health each. When dealing with resource pools measured in the 25,000-45,000+ range (and 15,000 to 30,000 for health) depending on your character's setup, that begins to look rather small as well . The biggest differences, as I touched on before, come from the set bonuses that only come from or are practically obtainable in earlier Veteran Ranks (being that anything less than the VR12-14 versions could be considered "leveling gear" as you outpace it fairly quickly with your own character levels) as there's little point spending the effort to get VR2 sets of Morag Tong from PVP, Master weapons from Veteran Dragonstar, legendary crafted items, or Infallible Aether from Trials as well as the elephant in the room of "you should probably just be leveling still and we can bring someone who already has for now." if you were to ask your group to bring your lowbie along.

I'll edit in some pictures below this line in a little while to show what I am talking about, as far as the stat differences .
________________________________________________________
(Pictures will be here!)

MAOofDC

@Attorneyatlawl I would like to hear your thoughts on thread I started that is very much related to this one.

Thread title: Assuming ZoS Removes Veteran Levels. What Happens To Attributes And Skill Points?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173754/assuming-zos-removes-veteran-levels-what-happens-to-attributes-and-skill-points#latest

I also welcome everyone else to join into the conversation.

Tankqull

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

They just need to add quests that are relevant to your alliance sabataging the other alliances, add another main story in for your alliance. Add a mian story for thieves guild and dark brother hood guild starting at lvl 50 to v14. that will give people enough insentive to actually do Vet levels and not be bored with them.

the down fall is that all main stories end at lvl 50. so you are left with just the poop quests of the other factions.

and add some more usefull grindspots - its horrible that atleast for my alliance i know exactly 2 spots worth grinding wich leads to the fact everyone not intrested in questgrinding will show up making those spots worthless as they are overrun90% of the time.

wraith808

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

Attorneyatlawl

wraith808 wrote: »

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

Hm? I have posted this idea since launch, but decided to make a new thread as the topic has come up a lot recently around the forums. You can do a quick google search if you would like to verify it. Thanks for backing up my position, however, and your meaningful contribution to this thread ? I am a little curious as to the point of plopping in here to post that, though. Let's keep the conversation constructive rather than snipping at anyone else who has an idea.


EDIT: Here's a post I was able to dig up from June 1st, 2014 inside of 20 seconds of searching Google, and I posted that same comment during Psijic beta testing in 2013. I rest my case . The first post I found in a similar amount of searching by you was from April this year (2015), a full 16 months or so later.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162764/gaining-veteran-xp-per-alliance

Now I am even more confused by your comments. Have a good evening.

EDIT #2: My curiosity got the better of me, and I searched even more, with the first mention found on these forums of veteran ranks/levels you ever made that I can turn up not even being until March 2015. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149549/zos-please-make-crafting-research-account-wide/p5

Smiteye

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

Hm? I have posted this idea since launch, but decided to make a new thread as the topic has come up a lot recently around the forums. You can do a quick google search if you would like to verify it. Thanks for backing up my position, however, and your meaningful contribution to this thread ? I am a little curious as to the point of plopping in here to post that, though. Let's keep the conversation constructive rather than snipping at anyone else who has an idea.


EDIT: Here's a post I was able to dig up from June 1st, 2014 inside of 20 seconds of searching Google, and I posted that same comment during Psijic beta testing in 2013. I rest my case . The first post I found in a similar amount of searching by you was from April this year (2015), a full 16 months or so later.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162764/gaining-veteran-xp-per-alliance

Now I am even more confused by your comments. Have a good evening.

EDIT #2: My curiosity got the better of me, and I searched even more, with the first mention found on these forums of veteran ranks/levels you ever made that I can turn up not even being until March 2015. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149549/zos-please-make-crafting-research-account-wide/p5

#REKT.

Wow.

wraith808

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

Hm? I have posted this idea since launch, but decided to make a new thread as the topic has come up a lot recently around the forums. You can do a quick google search if you would like to verify it. Thanks for backing up my position, however, and your meaningful contribution to this thread ? I am a little curious as to the point of plopping in here to post that, though. Let's keep the conversation constructive rather than snipping at anyone else who has an idea.


EDIT: Here's a post I was able to dig up from June 1st, 2014 inside of 20 seconds of searching Google, and I posted that same comment during Psijic beta testing in 2013. I rest my case . The first post I found in a similar amount of searching by you was from April this year (2015), a full 16 months or so later.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162764/gaining-veteran-xp-per-alliance

Now I am even more confused by your comments. Have a good evening.

EDIT #2: My curiosity got the better of me, and I searched even more, with the first mention found on these forums of veteran ranks/levels you ever made that I can turn up not even being until March 2015. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149549/zos-please-make-crafting-research-account-wide/p5

That's not even what I was talking about. I wasn't trying to be snarky or anything, but no one responded to any of my posts... perhaps because they got buried in the topics they were in? I was just making a bit of humor, but I guess that went over the heads too because you seem to have taken it as an offense, which I didn't mean.

And what you're talking about there doesn't even approach the whole thing.

I have a wacky idea. Don't remove them. They're making too much focus on the part that's not the problem.

Scale VR1-14 in line with the other levels instead of having some arbitrary amount of XP needed.
Unlock all the content, zones, etc at VR1
Quit trying to nerf grinding.
Increase PvP XP

That does everything that is wanted, without having to go through a really complicated re-design, fraught with bugs and missteps.

You don't have to do cadwells at that point.
The XP needed will be small enough that it will go by just as fast as 1-50, no matter which way you chose to do it.

That bit that you posted as your post that you were able to dig up doesn't even approach the issue.. .quoting here for completion:

Quoted for truth. I think it was a clever way to make use of all factions' content for everyone... also, OP, the vet content isn't very tough on any of the classes including my VR9 almost 10 nightblade, and no, he isn't in "optimized gear every level-up" like you mentioned in the thread starting post.

That doesn't even seem to be referencing the idea of removing the veteran ranks.

So hey, if any offense was caused, nothing was meant, and we can discuss more, or just let it drop, your choice if you want to continue the discussion.

EDIT: And before anyone says anything about the comment, if you search for that particular text, you'll see one maybe two instances that are pretty recent- that's because I didn't really want to invest the time to find anything else- it's not that important to me.

Cathexis

Levelling based systems in general are dumb - for one thing they are a huge deterant to joining PvP.

Its all well and good to have progression, but at the end of the day

More grind = less PvP players, less PvP time.

Why anyone would want to encourage a more grind orriented game completely dumbfounds me.

Attorneyatlawl

wraith808 wrote: »

That's not even what I was talking about. I wasn't trying to be snarky or anything, but no one responded to any of my posts... perhaps because they got buried in the topics they were in? I was just making a bit of humor, but I guess that went over the heads too because you seem to have taken it as an offense, which I didn't mean.

And what you're talking about there doesn't even approach the whole thing.


That doesn't even seem to be referencing the idea of removing the veteran ranks.

So hey, if any offense was caused, nothing was meant, and we can discuss more, or just let it drop, your choice if you want to continue the discussion.

EDIT: And before anyone says anything about the comment, if you search for that particular text, you'll see one maybe two instances that are pretty recent- that's because I didn't really want to invest the time to find anything else- it's not that important to me.

Actually, the thread I posted that in was this:

"Mistakes were made (Veteran Ranks)"

and the first post says:

"And that's okay, but when you make a mistake, it's up to you to step up, say 'I've made a mistake' and fix it. I believe I'm not the only one who thinks Veteran Ranks were a bad idea. I can't count on 4 hands how many people I've seen complain about them."

Then continuing on to demand veteran ranks be removed. Both the reply I made in there and the original post of that thread were about removing veteran ranks. Context is key . Thanks for the apology.

wraith808

Apology? Ok... but no discussion. Ok...

Attorneyatlawl

wraith808 wrote: »

Apology? Ok... but no discussion. Ok...

I've already contributed a significant amount, and most of what I have to say, in the OP and my subsequent replies. The handful of posts you've made here were 1-liners incorrectly claiming (as though it would have been relevant in any case) that you had "been posting about the ideas for ages" (paraphrased) and that therefore none of the feedback here mattered.

Please either stop attempting to de-rail this thread, or post up some constructive feedback of your own in it .

wraith808

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Apology? Ok... but no discussion. Ok...

I've already contributed a significant amount, and most of what I have to say, in the OP and my subsequent replies. The handful of posts you've made here were 1-liners incorrectly claiming (as though it would have been relevant in any case) that you had "been posting about the ideas for ages" (paraphrased) and that therefore none of the feedback here mattered.

Please either stop attempting to de-rail this thread, or post up some constructive feedback of your own in it .

I'm not trying to derail any thread. Your original post that you took a simple off hand comment and decided to take offense to (which by the way was the only thing I was apologizing for- your incorrect take on a throw away statement), didn't point to any additional information, which I pointed out and you glossed over. I then posted more information and something that I wanted feedback on as a valid way to get around veteran ranks, which you apparently don't see as constructive feedback. Yours was a post about removing veteran ranks. Now you're talking about all we need to do is reduce the XP required per your post that I was responding to. I've not seen you say that before, and that wasn't what you pointed to, and that was what I was proposing and wanted to discuss rationally.

I had viewed you as a voice a reason and rationality in all truth. In other instances, you've been so. But I've seen hints where that is not the case- and this is a blatant example of such- I guess as the offense made you think I was attacking you or the thread. That was indeed not the case. But as we seem to be unable to get around that, maybe no discussion is possible.

Have fun with your thread.

Attorneyatlawl

wraith808 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Apology? Ok... but no discussion. Ok...

I've already contributed a significant amount, and most of what I have to say, in the OP and my subsequent replies. The handful of posts you've made here were 1-liners incorrectly claiming (as though it would have been relevant in any case) that you had "been posting about the ideas for ages" (paraphrased) and that therefore none of the feedback here mattered.

Please either stop attempting to de-rail this thread, or post up some constructive feedback of your own in it .

I'm not trying to derail any thread. Your original post that you took a simple off hand comment and decided to take offense to (which by the way was the only thing I was apologizing for- your incorrect take on a throw away statement), didn't point to any additional information, which I pointed out and you glossed over. I then posted more information and something that I wanted feedback on as a valid way to get around veteran ranks, which you apparently don't see as constructive feedback. Yours was a post about removing veteran ranks. Now you're talking about all we need to do is reduce the XP required per your post that I was responding to. I've not seen you say that before, and that wasn't what you pointed to, and that was what I was proposing and wanted to discuss rationally.

I had viewed you as a voice a reason and rationality in all truth. In other instances, you've been so. But I've seen hints where that is not the case- and this is a blatant example of such- I guess as the offense made you think I was attacking you or the thread. That was indeed not the case. But as we seem to be unable to get around that, maybe no discussion is possible.

Have fun with your thread.

I have thrown about the number of 150k (150,000) EXP as a specific recommendation in forums and in-game, many times before. I also have said that the length of the leveling process and the EXP rate gain balance between PVE questing, grinding, dungeons, trials, PVP, delves, and other activities needs to be fixed as all else pales in comparison to grinding.

You can see examples of this as early as April 2014 on the public forums, and there are earlier ones in private, where I spoke to the topic of needing EXP earnings to be balanced between gameplay activities :

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/512473/#Comment_512473

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

reagen_lionel wrote: »

Grinding monsters by fighting needs to still be a viable way to level up than just sticking to quests.

I don't see any reason for PVP to be so inefficient for leveling either... they claimed you'd be able to level viably in there, but it's dog slow even if the action's plentiful due to the extremely low kill XP in Cyrodiil for enemy players, and of course further worsening that is the spiky nature of PVP XP in any game due to winning/losing fights, finding action, etc.

As to your continuing personal discussion... if there is some constructive reason that you would post this:

wraith808 wrote: »

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

As a reply to a fairly lengthy and thought-out feedback, please feel free to explain it, as I asked in my original response to you. In the meantime, it's a fairly transparent post and I ask you once more to either post about the actual topic rather than tangential attacks on posters here, or stop sidetracking it .

wraith808

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

If there is some constructive reason that you would post this:

wraith808 wrote: »

I've been posting this forever (with the fixes to the other parts) and you're just jumping on the bandwagon? Good to see you here... there's plenty of room

As a reply to a fairly lengthy and thought-out feedback, please feel free to explain it, as I asked in my original response to you. In the meantime, it's a fairly transparent post and I ask you once more to either post about the actual topic rather than tangential attacks on posters here, or stop sidetracking it .

Have I attacked any posters? No? If so, then tell me the attacks? And I posted my feedback, and yet you still haven't commented on it. You keep derailing this trying to keep it adversarial, and I keep trying to defuse it. So I think the high road has firmly left your grasp while you weren't paying attention.

Again:

I have a wacky idea. Don't remove them. They're making too much focus on the part that's not the problem.

Scale VR1-14 in line with the other levels instead of having some arbitrary amount of XP needed.
Unlock all the content, zones, etc at VR1
Quit trying to nerf grinding.
Increase PvP XP

That does everything that is wanted, without having to go through a really complicated re-design, fraught with bugs and missteps.

You don't have to do cadwells at that point.
The XP needed will be small enough that it will go by just as fast as 1-50, no matter which way you chose to do it.

Emma_Overload

None of this sounds very convincing to me. Sure, making VR levels quicker by lowering XP required would be an improvement over what we have now. However, getting rid of VR levels altogether would be a MASSIVE improvement. Leveling past 50 in this game is boring and grindy, especially if you've already done it before... why prolong the pain?

Like the OP, I have plenty of top-notch VR14 gear accumulated, but so what? If VR levels are removed tomorrow, all my gear will STILL be the best gear in the game. Am I supposed to be offended that VR1 players will have the same stuff as me? That doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game in any way, so why should I care? Furthermore, now my VR1-VR13 alts (the ones I can't bear to grind up any higher) will have access to all the same gear my VR14 main owns. That's gonna be awesome!

All this stuff about "losing progress" doesn't make any sense to me. As long as my VR14 gets to keep her gear and her CP, she isn't losing anything.

ZOS_Racheal

Greetings Everyone.

We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thanks!

Attorneyatlawl

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

None of this sounds very convincing to me. Sure, making VR levels quicker by lowering XP required would be an improvement over what we have now. However, getting rid of VR levels altogether would be a MASSIVE improvement. Leveling past 50 in this game is boring and grindy, especially if you've already done it before... why prolong the pain?

Like the OP, I have plenty of top-notch VR14 gear accumulated, but so what? If VR levels are removed tomorrow, all my gear will STILL be the best gear in the game. Am I supposed to be offended that VR1 players will have the same stuff as me? That doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game in any way, so why should I care? Furthermore, now my VR1-VR13 alts (the ones I can't bear to grind up any higher) will have access to all the same gear my VR14 main owns. That's gonna be awesome!

All this stuff about "losing progress" doesn't make any sense to me. As long as my VR14 gets to keep her gear and her CP, she isn't losing anything.

The same is true of the 1-50(VR1) leveling as well after the first time . As to re-scaling items, you would be changing extremely hard to get gear to become extremely common and largely trivial to obtain. That directly impacts both your gameplay in PVP, and in competitive areas like Trials and Arenas where much of the best gear takes some effort to get right now. That, right there, is how you are losing progress, as you are being reset down to the baseline

Luffy

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

None of this sounds very convincing to me. Sure, making VR levels quicker by lowering XP required would be an improvement over what we have now. However, getting rid of VR levels altogether would be a MASSIVE improvement. Leveling past 50 in this game is boring and grindy, especially if you've already done it before... why prolong the pain?

Like the OP, I have plenty of top-notch VR14 gear accumulated, but so what? If VR levels are removed tomorrow, all my gear will STILL be the best gear in the game. Am I supposed to be offended that VR1 players will have the same stuff as me? That doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game in any way, so why should I care? Furthermore, now my VR1-VR13 alts (the ones I can't bear to grind up any higher) will have access to all the same gear my VR14 main owns. That's gonna be awesome!

All this stuff about "losing progress" doesn't make any sense to me. As long as my VR14 gets to keep her gear and her CP, she isn't losing anything.

I Agree. I have a VR14 myself and another VR4. I don't understand all this "losing progress" stuff either, the more you have leveled in veteran ranks the more CP you have, so it doesn't really matter.

They should have removed VR before console release tbh, as soon as people get to VR1 and find out how long the grind to VR14 is people will quit, just wait 1month from now and see what happens. I get that some people enjoy the VR system, but the fact of the matter is that casual players (which is the majority of the player base) don't want to grind 76 hours non stop after they are VR1 just to get to VR14 and be able to PvE and PvP. 1-50 is enough, and if Zenimax wants a large player base they should remvove the VRs.