Can someone explain how nirnhorned works

Erock25

Say I have 10k spell resist and add a single piece of epic nirnhorned armor that lists 4% spell resist increase. Would iv then have 10.4k spell resist or am I missing a calculation somewhere?

Everyone keeps saying nirnhorned is op and even ZOS said it was doing too much. The way I see it, if I have 20k spell resist, use 4 nirnhorned armor (legendary) and one nirnhorned weapon, that's what... 27% additional spell resist? Going from 20k spell resist to 25.3k spell resist isn't much considering the price of the potent and fortified nirncrux.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Well, that 5,3K Spellresist would be stronger than 3 Legendary Spellresist set bonuses combined. So the important question is, can you get equivalent values by using Divine or Infused traits instead of Nirnhorned? If those values are not even close to each other you got a serious balance issue.

exiledtyrant

I went ahead and checked some of the nirncrux I keep in the bank. The old wiki values say 4.5% for a gold but the ones in my bank say 18% spell resist per piece for a white so it's actually a whole lot more than what your seeing. Me personally I just sell the stuff off as mitigation is going to become more and more of a joke as the CP progresses. 18 % max reduction from potent, 25% from cp, 5% flat reductions from apprentice, about 7% flat reduction from light armor, and another almost 8% flat reduction from major breach, and an extra 15% max penetration for destro staff skills. What's the point when you are getting reduced 78% from destro skills and 63% from all other skills?

Erock25

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I went ahead and checked some of the nirncrux I keep in the bank. The old wiki values say 4.5% for a gold but the ones in my bank say 18% spell resist per piece for a white so it's actually a whole lot more than what your seeing. Me personally I just sell the stuff off as mitigation is going to become more and more of a joke as the CP progresses. 18 % max reduction from potent, 25% from cp, 5% flat reductions from apprentice, about 7% flat reduction from light armor, and another almost 8% flat reduction from major breach, and an extra 15% max penetration for destro staff skills. What's the point when you are getting reduced 78% from destro skills and 63% from all other skills?

So you are saying nirncrux on armor is 18% spell resist for a white piece? The wiki says 18% for gold 2h weapon but are you sure you were looking at armor?

exiledtyrant

I was looking at the stack of fortified nirncrux i have in my bank. I'm sure it's that high.

Erock25

Ugghh why is the wiki wrong. I'm going to have to craft again now. I was looking at it last night while I was crafting my tank set and just didn't see the 4% per piece (I don't do legendary) as worth it even compared to divines. 18% per white armor piece which would probably be like 22% per epic is just ridiculous though and worth crafting again....even if it is for only a few more months before they 'fix' it.

exiledtyrant

I wouldn't waste the money as I said the penetration is so high in this game right now we all may as well be wearing paper especially in the next coming month or so when all those 300 star players roll out. It may be pretty good for pve though though I don't know if I'd roll out that kind of cash on a pending nerf. I think i got 3 or 4 if your buying on NA.

Ygaer

Your thinking is completely off, the spell resist is even more important as others get higher spell pen. As it is, maxing out spell resist is easy, but going over the 50% cap is still useful against people loading up on spell pen.

exiledtyrant

So I went over some numbers going off a sample from one of my heavy armor setups.

I usually have around 20k spell resist with all the passives, 3 large heavy crafted pieces reinforced, and 4 assorted small piece reinforced all epic. With minor and major ward I am around 26k+ . If I swap 4 of the smaller pieces for nircrux that gives me an overall 88% increase in spell resist so 48880. After being reduced by light armor and major breach I am down to 39024 and then I have a list of values after % reduction:

26000 starting point
48880 4 nirncrux

4736 light + 5120 major breach - 48880 = 39024
18% potent, 25% max ( 10% 27 points) cp, 10% destroy staff, 5% apprentice.

All skills
26146 (40% reduction) after 33% penetration ( potent + 27 cp + apprentice)
20292 ( 31% reduction) after 48% penetration( potent + 100 cp + apprentice)

Destro skills
22243 (34% reduction) after 43% penetration ( potent + 27 cp ++ apprentice + destro)
16390 ( 25% reduction) after 58% penetration ( potent + 100 cp + apprentice + destro)


Having pvped at 10k spell resist ( 17k+ critical hits), 18k spell resist ( 13-15k+ critical hits), and 28k spell resist ( 10-13k critical hits) Stacking reduction doesn't seem worth it from a pvp perspective. For pve it just lets you hit cap very easily so I can see it's uses there. Stacking way above where light armor + major breach can reach may be effective but armor would definitely suffer at that point. Personal opinion I suppose. Some people love nirncrux, but all I see is a defense that is slowly getting worse over time as more cp becomes available and the pending nirncrux nerf happens.

glavius

Champ spell penetration doesnt work Like that. .

exiledtyrant

Then how does it work

glavius

30 points give exactly 60 dmg. Nearly nothing

exiledtyrant

Your going to have to give me more than that. Are you saying it is still bugged, it runs off a different formula, order of operations or what? I haven't seen any consensus to tell me CP spell pen isn't doing what it's supposed to now.

glavius

Ingame testing. Can post exact numbers when i get home

glavius

Base dmg vs shielded target, curse: 4617

Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor 2309
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 2406
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ in penetration 2465

Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2335
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 2566
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 2626

Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor 2855
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 3086
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3145

Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2976
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 3207
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3267

glavius

On top of that, champ resist lines can't be penetrated at all, but provide a fixed value. And they even provide mitigation for your shields.

Cody

Erock25 wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I went ahead and checked some of the nirncrux I keep in the bank. The old wiki values say 4.5% for a gold but the ones in my bank say 18% spell resist per piece for a white so it's actually a whole lot more than what your seeing. Me personally I just sell the stuff off as mitigation is going to become more and more of a joke as the CP progresses. 18 % max reduction from potent, 25% from cp, 5% flat reductions from apprentice, about 7% flat reduction from light armor, and another almost 8% flat reduction from major breach, and an extra 15% max penetration for destro staff skills. What's the point when you are getting reduced 78% from destro skills and 63% from all other skills?

So you are saying nirncrux on armor is 18% spell resist for a white piece? The wiki says 18% for gold 2h weapon but are you sure you were looking at armor?

ignore the wiki, it is 18%, I have seen it

exiledtyrant

glavius wrote: »

On top of that, champ resist lines can't be penetrated at all, but provide a fixed value. And they even provide mitigation for your shields.

This is pretty interesting. I actually posed this questions a few days ago because I couldn't find the answer. Does that count for base armor and spell resistance champion points as well?

glavius wrote: »

Base dmg vs shielded target, curse: 4617

Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor 2309
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 2406
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ in penetration 2465

Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2335
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 2566
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 2626

This is an interesting sample. I didn't check all the trials because the trend seemed apparent. It does look like the penetration is bugged or there some type of penetration cap that I am unaware for.

For this trial:
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ in penetration 2465

The assumed mitigation should have been damage being mitigated by 43% against a penetration of 29%.

What you got was closer to damage after being mitigated by 46-47% ( pretty close to 46.6%).

The staff + apprentice was also off from the assumed mitigation percent. That may mean the apprentice is doing more than 5% or handling spell pen in an entirely different way. I tried different ways of ordering the reduction but I can't figure out where that extra 3-4% has fallen through at.

Did the target you tested on have any of the resistance champion points you mentioned? Spell pen is still looking bugged otherwise.

glavius

Target had no champ resistances

Ezareth

glavius wrote: »

Target had no champ resistances

@glavius
Were you wearing any divines gear?

When was this testing done? I was told by people that Spell Erosion was fixed at some point to where it gives decent benefits after the first point invested.

glavius

Patch 2.4 i think not sure. Don't think i was wearing divine gear, also don't understand what difference it would make?

Ezareth

glavius wrote: »

Patch 2.4 i think not sure. Don't think i was wearing divine gear, also don't understand what difference it would make?

Thanks,

If you were using Apprentice Stone it would impact your penetration.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Stop saying Nirn "Horned".

Addihul

glavius wrote: »

Base dmg vs shielded target, curse: 4617

Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor 2309
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 2406
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ in penetration 2465

Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2335
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 2566
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 2626

Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor 2855
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 3086
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3145

Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2976
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 3207
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3267

Wow this makes me want to puke. I put a good amount of points in to champ penetration thinking it would be a big increase. Sadly I didn't run my own numbers. THIRTY CP yields roughly SIXTY points of dmg? This is atrocious.

Imdrefan

Yea sadly this is the state it's in. I still only run 1 point in Erosion, You see much more of an increase with elemental and thaumaturge.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Addihul wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Base dmg vs shielded target, curse: 4617

Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor 2309
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 2406
Dmg vs 44,5k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ in penetration 2465

Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2335
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 2566
Dmg vs 44,5k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 2626

Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor 2855
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor and apprentice 3086
Dmg vs 33k resist sharpened staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3145

Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor 2976
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor and apprentice 3207
Dmg vs 33k resist nirnhoned staff light armor apprentice and 30 champ penetration 3267

Wow this makes me want to puke. I put a good amount of points in to champ penetration thinking it would be a big increase. Sadly I didn't run my own numbers. THIRTY CP yields roughly SIXTY points of dmg? This is atrocious.

The penetration passive is bugged. You actually get LESS penetration the more points you put into it (I'm being serious). 1 point is fine, but anything more, and it bugs out completely.

Also, a TLDR for people that do not want to read the numbers, nirnhoned on armor does provide significant damage mitigation even against someone stacking maximum penetration. If you run around in PVP with 20% more damage mitigation, you will notice a big, big difference.