[SUGGESTION] Counter to Kite-Heavy Mechanics

Cinnamon_Spider

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Sublime

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

Ezareth

Laerwen wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, bolt escape and it's morphs only teleport you 4 meters, or the radius of lightning splash (extremely small). Couple this with the global cooldowns and mini stuns from gap closers, and you can ALWAYS catch a sorc after he has entered gap closing range, IF you really want to.

The only time you cannot catch a sorc is when he never lets you get in gap closing range. Surprisingly, you cannot catch any other class that never lets you get into gap closing range either.

ITT noobs chased a sorc, got wrecked, then cried about it.

What to take away from this? Nuthug your group more, noob.

Bolt Escape is 15 Meters. Gap closers are 22 Meters.

I think using Sorc Mobility is class mobility. Templar Healing, DK tanking and NB Stealthing. Every class has an area they excel in and there are counters to defeat all of them (including bolt escape). I've had a DK literally "Ride" me all the way from the gates between Ash and Nikel all the way to Nikel (partially because I had to keep stopping to refresh my shields).

Ezareth

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

So you want to buff DKs, the masters of close quarter combat an ability that virtually forces everyone to fight them in the space they have the greatest advantage in?

/boggle

Cinnamon_Spider

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

How about instead of asking for changes to existing skills to fit what you want, you learn how to use the already existing skills that many other players have success using?

Laerwen

Ezareth wrote: »

Bolt Escape is 15 Meters.

I stand corrected thank you sir.

Sublime

Ezareth wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

So you want to buff DKs, the masters of close quarter combat an ability that virtually forces everyone to fight them in the space they have the greatest advantage in?

/boggle

It's not about the DK's, Fiery Grip was just the skill closest to the one I had in mind. And since it's in a pretty bad state right now I though it was a good idead to put it into that niche.

While gap-closers work perfectly fine against mobile players, the problem I see is that in open world situations where a single player can very easily be heavily outnumber mobile classes have means to get away, tanky builds are however doomed since, even though they might be very tanky, they can't sustain against all odds.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

How about instead of asking for changes to existing skills to fit what you want, you learn how to use the already existing skills that many other players have success using?

I'm not sure why you take it so personal, but I can ensure you that I'm absolutely loving Streak and its AOE stun. (Yes, Sorcerer is actually my only main)

Laerwen

Sublime wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

So you want to buff DKs, the masters of close quarter combat an ability that virtually forces everyone to fight them in the space they have the greatest advantage in?

/boggle

It's not about the DK's, Fiery Grip was just the skill closest to the one I had in mind. And since it's in a pretty bad state right now I though it was a good idead to put it into that niche.

While gap-closers work perfectly fine against mobile players, the problem I see is that in open world situations where a single player can very easily be heavily outnumber mobile classes have means to get away, tanky builds are however doomed since, even though they might be very tanky, they can't sustain against all odds.

What you are describing in this thread is actually tactics. We are not going to fight a good 2 handed DK toe-to-toe if we can help it, nor should we be expected to. You want to get in our face and we want to melt yours from a few meters away. It's a battle for positioning, and both sides have tools to get into their own favorable position.

Ezareth

Sublime wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

So you want to buff DKs, the masters of close quarter combat an ability that virtually forces everyone to fight them in the space they have the greatest advantage in?

/boggle

It's not about the DK's, Fiery Grip was just the skill closest to the one I had in mind. And since it's in a pretty bad state right now I though it was a good idead to put it into that niche.

While gap-closers work perfectly fine against mobile players, the problem I see is that in open world situations where a single player can very easily be heavily outnumber mobile classes have means to get away, tanky builds are however doomed since, even though they might be very tanky, they can't sustain against all odds.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Is there a reason you felt the need to create a whole new thread requesting nerfs to sorcerer skills instead of posting in one of the many other active threads?

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

How about instead of asking for changes to existing skills to fit what you want, you learn how to use the already existing skills that many other players have success using?

I'm not sure why you take it so personal, but I can ensure you that I'm absolutely loving Streak and its AOE stun. (Yes, Sorcerer is actually my only main)

Do you know what my life span is inside of a keep? Far less than it is in open spaces. The terrain suits the playstyle and that's why DKs are far better inside tight spaces like keeps than Sorcs. I'm fine with that and it is a form of balance in itself.

Nothing forces either player to play in an a way that they are disadvantaged in.

Derra

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@ToRelax I'm sorry. xD

Yes I absolutely agree that Bolt Escape is more useful in most situations - like I said previously. For a NB I just wish you didn't have to target an enemy to place Shadow Image, it's a bit clunky to use.

I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.

Tankqull wrote: »

well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).

Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.

templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.

While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape. Ap

no but as a templar you can use your spear charge gap closer to keep up with a sorc, especially now that they fixed the global cooldown behind it.

you can couple a speed buff and mist form and you actually go faster then bolt escape, or you can find a rock to mist form around or roll around, depending you if your magicka or stam specced and troll the hell out of the sorc because he will barely be able to hit you because of line of sight. then when you recover enough fight. ive seen templars/dk's do this and troll entire zergs and kill people in the process.

The added CC-immunity is certainly useful but the speed bonuses no longer stack since both skills give the Major Expedition Bonus, and if they do it's a bug. Apart from that it's not about catching up it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them while mobility-heavy classes can easily kite them selecting locations that favour their playstyle.

Well if you word it that way: Just don´t follow mobile classes. They either fight you where you are on your terms or they don´t fight you?

That's exactly the point, mobile classes decide if there's a fight or not. If they don't want to fight they run away, if they want to fight they fight, immobile classes don't have the freedom to make this desicion. If a mobile class wants to fight them they have to fight.

While mobility is certainly an important part of those kits, they also give them the unique opportunity to choose if the want to take a fight or not.

Still you can turn this around very simple. If the imobile class does not follow you the kite build is "screwed" bc you can´t fight on favorable terms...

Sublime

Derra wrote: »

Still you can turn this around very simple. If the imobile class does not follow you the kite build is "screwed" bc you can´t fight on favorable terms...

True, so what we are left with, is that a if a mobile build wants to disengage it has a larger radius because of the nature of its defense (mobility), and therefore has a larger variety of locations too choose than a immobile player that wants to disengage. However, I'm not sure yet how strong this advantage actually is.

Laerwen wrote: »

What you are describing in this thread is actually tactics. We are not going to fight a good 2 handed DK toe-to-toe if we can help it, nor should we be expected to. You want to get in our face and we want to melt yours from a few meters away. It's a battle for positioning, and both sides have tools to get into their own favorable position.

Stamina DK's&TP's certainly do have ways to reposition themselves, but I don't see a way for their Magicka based counterparts because Mist Form can be countered too easily.

Varicite

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Lightning Form gives the same Major armor / resist buff that can be found from other similar buffs, and this stacks w/ Bound Armor morphs.

Hardened Ward doesn't require you to split your attributes into health to make it powerful.

Stacking Hardened + Healing Ward alone can make you pretty tanky, imo, and that's w/out any heals, CC, or mobility added. All of which a Sorc has access to while holding a Resto staff.

Also, 3rd action bar.

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Lightning Form gives the same Major armor / resist buff that can be found from other similar buffs, and this stacks w/ Bound Armor morphs.

Hardened Ward doesn't require you to split your attributes into health to make it powerful.

Stacking Hardened + Healing Ward alone can make you pretty tanky, imo, and that's w/out any heals, CC, or mobility added. All of which a Sorc has access to while holding a Resto staff.

Also, 3rd action bar.

Like I said already, Bound Armor is a damage increase now. It's a very bad idea slotting that as a tank, at least in PvP.
Hardened Ward will require you to spend your attribute points into magicka to make it powerful, making you less tanky in the process. Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is an obvious combination, but like I said, as a tank you need one hand shield. If you don't run that on both bars, you need mobility, because you are vulnerable while using your Healing Ward (swapping on another weapon).
And lol @ Overload. Use that as tank and die.
You seem to have *no* clue what you are talking about, go test it, play a Sorc and show the people how to tank with a Sorc, not using mobility DKs and Templars don't have.

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Lightning Form gives the same Major armor / resist buff that can be found from other similar buffs, and this stacks w/ Bound Armor morphs.

Hardened Ward doesn't require you to split your attributes into health to make it powerful.

Stacking Hardened + Healing Ward alone can make you pretty tanky, imo, and that's w/out any heals, CC, or mobility added. All of which a Sorc has access to while holding a Resto staff.

Also, 3rd action bar.

Like I said already, Bound Armor is a damage increase now.

Bound Armor gives you Minor Resolve.... it's crappy, but it stacks w/ the Major version from Lightning Form. The damage increase is on top of the armor buff.

ToRelax wrote: »

Hardened Ward will require you to spend your attribute points into magicka to make it powerful, making you less tanky in the process. Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is an obvious combination, but like I said, as a tank you need one hand shield. If you don't run that on both bars, you need mobility, because you are vulnerable while using your Healing Ward (swapping on another weapon).
And lol @ Overload. Use that as tank and die.
You seem to have *no* clue what you are talking about, go test it, play a Sorc and show the people how to tank with a Sorc, not using mobility DKs and Templars don't have.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. What I call "tanky" in PvP is a player who can take a lot of punishment w/out dying.

If you don't think that any class can survive a good bit of damage through mitigation, avoidance, or healing w/out a shield equipped, I'm pretty sure we're just going to disagree.

Certainly not w/ the cookie cutter builds that you see running around lately (and since launch), but through the sheer sustain that a Sorc has access to and great spellpower, you can certainly put together a few builds that are less focused on kiting and more focused on armor / resist / heals / shields.

Would it be as successful as your traditional BE + Ward Sorc? No. Is that because Sorcs can't be tanky at all? No, it's because every build that relies on taking hits and healing is less effective post 1.6 than a DPS character focused on avoidance of damage.

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Lightning Form gives the same Major armor / resist buff that can be found from other similar buffs, and this stacks w/ Bound Armor morphs.

Hardened Ward doesn't require you to split your attributes into health to make it powerful.

Stacking Hardened + Healing Ward alone can make you pretty tanky, imo, and that's w/out any heals, CC, or mobility added. All of which a Sorc has access to while holding a Resto staff.

Also, 3rd action bar.

Like I said already, Bound Armor is a damage increase now.

Bound Armor gives you Minor Resolve.... it's crappy, but it stacks w/ the Major version from Lightning Form. The damage increase is on top of the armor buff.

ToRelax wrote: »

Hardened Ward will require you to spend your attribute points into magicka to make it powerful, making you less tanky in the process. Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is an obvious combination, but like I said, as a tank you need one hand shield. If you don't run that on both bars, you need mobility, because you are vulnerable while using your Healing Ward (swapping on another weapon).
And lol @ Overload. Use that as tank and die.
You seem to have *no* clue what you are talking about, go test it, play a Sorc and show the people how to tank with a Sorc, not using mobility DKs and Templars don't have.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. What I call "tanky" in PvP is a player who can take a lot of punishment w/out dying.

If you don't think that any class can survive a good bit of damage through mitigation, avoidance, or healing w/out a shield equipped, I'm pretty sure we're just going to disagree.

Certainly not w/ the cookie cutter builds that you see running around lately (and since launch), but through the sheer sustain that a Sorc has access to and great spellpower, you can certainly put together a few builds that are less focused on kiting and more focused on armor / resist / heals / shields.

Would it be as successful as your traditional BE + Ward Sorc? No. Is that because Sorcs can't be tanky at all? No, it's because every build that relies on taking hits and healing is less effective post 1.6 than a DPS character focused on avoidance of damage.

There are (very few) Sorc PvP "tanks" actually, but again relying on their mobility.
If you count mobility into tankiness, how to differ "tanking classes" and "kiting classes" (or whatever you want to call them) at all then?

Varicite

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

If you actually hold a postion, Templar is definitely more tanky than a Sorc if both are built as tanks.
You can forget Bound Armor, that is only to increase damage now, and Lightning Form doesn't give any unique buff either. Blazing Shield sure hurts more and is only 33% less than Hardened Ward with same stats.
Also, no one is "very tanky while holding a resto staff". If you wanna hold a postion, you need one hand shield.
Sorc really doesn't offer much for a tank.

Lightning Form gives the same Major armor / resist buff that can be found from other similar buffs, and this stacks w/ Bound Armor morphs.

Hardened Ward doesn't require you to split your attributes into health to make it powerful.

Stacking Hardened + Healing Ward alone can make you pretty tanky, imo, and that's w/out any heals, CC, or mobility added. All of which a Sorc has access to while holding a Resto staff.

Also, 3rd action bar.

Like I said already, Bound Armor is a damage increase now.

Bound Armor gives you Minor Resolve.... it's crappy, but it stacks w/ the Major version from Lightning Form. The damage increase is on top of the armor buff.

ToRelax wrote: »

Hardened Ward will require you to spend your attribute points into magicka to make it powerful, making you less tanky in the process. Hardened Ward + Healing Ward is an obvious combination, but like I said, as a tank you need one hand shield. If you don't run that on both bars, you need mobility, because you are vulnerable while using your Healing Ward (swapping on another weapon).
And lol @ Overload. Use that as tank and die.
You seem to have *no* clue what you are talking about, go test it, play a Sorc and show the people how to tank with a Sorc, not using mobility DKs and Templars don't have.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. What I call "tanky" in PvP is a player who can take a lot of punishment w/out dying.

If you don't think that any class can survive a good bit of damage through mitigation, avoidance, or healing w/out a shield equipped, I'm pretty sure we're just going to disagree.

Certainly not w/ the cookie cutter builds that you see running around lately (and since launch), but through the sheer sustain that a Sorc has access to and great spellpower, you can certainly put together a few builds that are less focused on kiting and more focused on armor / resist / heals / shields.

Would it be as successful as your traditional BE + Ward Sorc? No. Is that because Sorcs can't be tanky at all? No, it's because every build that relies on taking hits and healing is less effective post 1.6 than a DPS character focused on avoidance of damage.

There are (very few) Sorc PvP "tanks" actually, but again relying on their mobility.
If you count mobility into tankiness, how to differ "tanking classes" and "kiting classes" (or whatever you want to call them) at all then?

Well, I meant evasive-type avoidance when talking about tankiness, but you're right, the lines are pretty blurred now w/ Sorcs being able to eat heavy damage while zipping around and dishing out damage just as heavy.

Just wait till Nirn gets fixed...

Domander

A lot of the time even if you try to keep up with a gap closer the server wont let you do it.

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

Passive defenses don't make you tanky. 50% damage reduction to physical and magickal damage reduction will still get you nearly instagibbed without using active defenses like Dodge Roll, Block and Damage shield. Lightning form and Bound Armor (lol, when is the last time you've see a player using that trash in PvP?) don't help your shields only your HP passive defenses. Increasing you hitpoints is at the expense of your damage shields. A Sorc built as tanky as possible will still die far quicker than a Templar or DK or even a NB utilizing their equivalent tank builds. Sorcs damage mitigation lies solely in their mobility. Damage shields only give them a little breathing room until they're out of range of the attackers.

Third Spell bar is nice until you realize you need 3 slots just for Bolt escape unless you like dying a lot while waiting to swap.

Varicite

Not really sure what makes you think a NB is worlds more tanky than a Sorc built correctly. Certainly, it's probably the least so of the classes, but not by the margin you seem to make it out to be.

Even taking up a slot on each bar for BE (which is your choice, I only use it on 2 personally), you come out ahead of the game when it comes to bar space.

Know how people keep asking for just a couple more ability slots? You have that. You have the luxury of crafting a full defensive / escape bar and STILL having enough slots for your primary offenses.

I don't know why you would even attempt to downplay the usefulness of that fact.

maryriv

Sublime wrote: »

The big problem with Bolt Escape is that there is currently no way to negate it's effect. Yes you can prevent somebody from using it through a stun but after CC-break the Sorcerer has enough time to get out because of the immunity.

Suggested Changes to Fiery Grip and all of its Morphs:

• ignore block
• ignore the Sorcerers ball of the skill Ball of Lightning
• no longer applies CC-immunity

Pros:

• There is now a counter to Bolt Escape and all of its Morphs.
• Fiery Grip is now worth using, also against other classes
• Enables single players to pick out players from bombsquads, isolating them from their Group

Cons:

• This would make Fiery Grip fairly strong, leaving roll dodge as the only counter, actually buffing Stamina build over Magicka ones.
• Bombsquads would be able to pull any enemy into their AOE, killing them almost instantly.

The question concerning bombsquads will be, will the bombsquad be torn apart before it can pull enemies into it's AOE.

Thoughts?

[EDIT]

My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

Firey grip is rather useless.

maryriv

Xsorus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.

Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

^This. And it actually costs less resources for a stamina build.

No it doesn't

Unless you're running maybe Well Fitted, but you'll lack Nirnhoned and get *** by any sorc you chase after.

This is SO true, I love to bolt escape away and just wait for 1 or 2 Edit: "smart people" to run away from the pack and nuke them down in seconds

ToRelax

Varicite wrote: »

Not really sure what makes you think a NB is worlds more tanky than a Sorc built correctly. Certainly, it's probably the least so of the classes, but not by the margin you seem to make it out to be.

Even taking up a slot on each bar for BE (which is your choice, I only use it on 2 personally), you come out ahead of the game when it comes to bar space.

Know how people keep asking for just a couple more ability slots? You have that. You have the luxury of crafting a full defensive / escape bar and STILL having enough slots for your primary offenses.

I don't know why you would even attempt to downplay the usefulness of that fact.

Because sap tank is still the best tank and the gap is wider than ever.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ezareth wrote: »

Do you know what my life span is inside of a keep? Far less than it is in open spaces. The terrain suits the playstyle and that's why DKs are far better inside tight spaces like keeps than Sorcs. I'm fine with that and it is a form of balance in itself.

Nothing forces either player to play in an a way that they are disadvantaged in.

Yup, pretty much. Hit the nail on the head.

cozmon3c_ESO

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

Passive defenses don't make you tanky. 50% damage reduction to physical and magickal damage reduction will still get you nearly instagibbed without using active defenses like Dodge Roll, Block and Damage shield. Lightning form and Bound Armor (lol, when is the last time you've see a player using that trash in PvP?) don't help your shields only your HP passive defenses. Increasing you hitpoints is at the expense of your damage shields. A Sorc built as tanky as possible will still die far quicker than a Templar or DK or even a NB utilizing their equivalent tank builds. Sorcs damage mitigation lies solely in their mobility. Damage shields only give them a little breathing room until they're out of range of the attackers.

Third Spell bar is nice until you realize you need 3 slots just for Bolt escape unless you like dying a lot while waiting to swap.

i add boundless storm to my bar during bad lag because bolt escape doesnt work, it has its uses lol.

Ezareth

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.

Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.

I think it's worth pointing out that Sorcs also have access to Bound Armor + Lightning Form + Hardened Ward.

While they lack a reflect and large class heal, they do absolutely have the option to become very tanky while holding a resto staff. Every bit as tanky as a Templar.

It's simply not popular because, as you mentioned, being tanky doesn't really win you as many battles as it used to post 1.6.

Why do that when you can have an easier time of it by leveraging superior mobility and the best ward in the game while still focusing 100% on damage?

Also, lol @ 4m range on Bolt. Say what?

Passive defenses don't make you tanky. 50% damage reduction to physical and magickal damage reduction will still get you nearly instagibbed without using active defenses like Dodge Roll, Block and Damage shield. Lightning form and Bound Armor (lol, when is the last time you've see a player using that trash in PvP?) don't help your shields only your HP passive defenses. Increasing you hitpoints is at the expense of your damage shields. A Sorc built as tanky as possible will still die far quicker than a Templar or DK or even a NB utilizing their equivalent tank builds. Sorcs damage mitigation lies solely in their mobility. Damage shields only give them a little breathing room until they're out of range of the attackers.

Third Spell bar is nice until you realize you need 3 slots just for Bolt escape unless you like dying a lot while waiting to swap.

i add boundless storm to my bar during bad lag because bolt escape doesnt work, it has its uses lol.

I was referencing bound armor. Boundless Storm is awesome, I use it to "double-stack" my Nirnhoned.

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

I was referencing bound armor. Boundless Storm is awesome, I use it to "double-stack" my Nirnhoned.

Granted, nobody cares about the Minor armor buffs, especially because of how little armor actually seems to matter currently. But it's there, that's all that I was pointing out.

Tankqull

Sublime wrote: »

If you try it out you see that with one use of Bolt Escape you can pretty exactly cross one Grand Healing, which has a radius of 8m, which result to a total of 16m range. The 4m radius in the TT refers to the AOE of the stun (and damage for Streak).

Tankqull wrote: »

thats allready existing its called map knowledge.
fought a dk who kited me into a position where i could decide between fighting him in a 2m² location or beeing unable to hit him at all.

Out of curiosity, how did the DK kite you?

by roll dodging - curse and lightning staff heavy attack dps is so damn low that rally compensates it completly

Varicite

I do this a lot myself. I prey on those foolish enough to overextend. : P