The problem with damage shields

Kelleton

There are a few major problems with damage shields which need to be highlighted. This is no attack vs any specific class but shields across the board.

in 1.6 we were introduced to a new mechanic on how buffs work including a major and minor system. Why do all buffs now fall into this line with the exception of shields. Why are we able to carry more than one damage shield at a time?

Why are critical hits and knockbacks negated by damage shields? This compounds the effectiveness of shields and makes them exceedingly powerful. The damage shields should act as a preemptive heal not as an impenetrable bubble.

prior to 1.6 there was a claim that they worked out caps for damage/healing and worked backward from there allocating a percentage to gear/enchants/champ points and so on...if that is truly the case why are we coming across these infinite builds so frequently. ak infinite roll, infinite shield, and so on.

Celless

Damage shields do not prevent knockback/knockdown. Once I neglect to block or dodge a knockdown move on a DD, I'm phooked by the time break free finishes animating.

I think I read somewhere before 2.0 that damage shields no longer prevent crits.

Kelleton

they do...which is the reason I constantly run shield with the wrecking blow spammers. If you have shield left after the damage you do not get hit by the cc portion.

danno8

Couple things...

First, shields do not prevent knockback or knockdown. As a Templar who uses Blazing Shield I can tell you this for certainty. I have heard that Hardened Ward is bugged and sometimes prevents cc, but I have not tested it.

Second, shields can not be crit, however they have no mitigation value.

Can we just be honest here and call the thread what it is? Sorcerers shield potential, combined with their Bolt Escape skill, and then mixed in with no stat caps is causing PvP pains.

danno8

Kelleton wrote: »

they do...which is the reason I constantly run shield with the wrecking blow spammers. If you have shield left after the damage you do not get hit by the cc portion.

Well if this is the case, then that makes sense since a Blazing Shield is unlikely to ever cover the full amount of a Wrecking Blow (BS is rarely higher than 7k in PvP), whereas a Hardened Ward can easily get to the 10k mark.

Kelleton

this isn't just about sorcs, its also barrier/bonewall stacking to create a raid with 200% hp its about a lot of things...which all boils down to...taa daaa shields...the thing that this topic is about.

danno8

Kelleton wrote: »

this isn't just about sorcs, its also barrier/bonewall stacking to create a raid with 200% hp its about a lot of things...which all boils down to...taa daaa shields...the thing that this topic is about.

I agree with shields not stacking. They should simply replace a weaker shield if they are stronger in magnitude, or do nothing if they are weaker.

Vizier

Stuns, slows and snares should work vs shields. Should not have to cause damage for it to work. It's too much. Make the bubblers have to spend stam to break free just like everyone else. If CC's are working through shields without the need to dps it down first I'll shut up and stand quietly in the back of the room.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

SIMPLE

make pve 1.6

make cryodil perma 1.5

this way we can deal with

cloth wearing, magic spamming, shield bashing, WW stam regen abusing classes

and we can turn our attentions back to problems then.

People non stop complainign that sorcs are OP in PVP can go back to crying about DKs and SAP tank NBs.

ITS THE SAME THING, just a different color in 1.6.

Good pvp players will trump a class.

Take a great PVP Sorc player vs a Great PVP temp, DK, NB player
and you will probably see a draw.

Kelleton

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

SIMPLE

make pve 1.6

make cryodil perma 1.5

this way we can deal with

cloth wearing, magic spamming, shield bashing, WW stam regen abusing classes

and we can turn our attentions back to problems then.

People non stop complainign that sorcs are OP in PVP can go back to crying about DKs and SAP tank NBs.

ITS THE SAME THING, just a different color in 1.6.

Good pvp players will trump a class.

Take a great PVP Sorc player vs a Great PVP temp, DK, NB player
and you will probably see a draw.

this isn't about a class...its about a mechanic...

byrom101b16_ESO

I am a do or die Sorcerer player, so I am bias.

That said, I hate shield mechanics in MMOs and have never encountered one that didn't make the game worse in one way or another.

ESO is, unfortunately, no exception.

Every time I use Hardened Ward is when I need to, being a nerfed Light Armour user... but after many years of Horde play on WoW, I still hear the mocking cry of 'Bubble Boy!' in my head when I press that button...

I do wish they could do away with shields and re-design other more active defences to compensate, but I doubt very much it will ever happen...

Celless

Yup, getting knocked around with the damage absorption shield still up after the hit.

Perhaps those people that weren't being knocked around had another effect up, e.g. Immoveable or recently CC'd like Fiery Grip.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

Kelleton wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

SIMPLE

make pve 1.6

make cryodil perma 1.5

this way we can deal with

cloth wearing, magic spamming, shield bashing, WW stam regen abusing classes

and we can turn our attentions back to problems then.

People non stop complainign that sorcs are OP in PVP can go back to crying about DKs and SAP tank NBs.

ITS THE SAME THING, just a different color in 1.6.

Good pvp players will trump a class.

Take a great PVP Sorc player vs a Great PVP temp, DK, NB player
and you will probably see a draw.

this isn't about a class...its about a mechanic...

It is About a class as the majoroty of non sorc pvpers whine about sorc shield stacking.
the bottom line is that most classes can do it while still being viable in pvp

If those same players stop pLaying follow the leader as far as builds go.

look at the class played, look at how to build your class around shields and then use the champ system to add dps to it.

But this is what people dont do. They would rather play generic stam 2h/bow or dw builds and wonder wth a certain class has huge shields and they dont.

all these posts revolve around pvp... these players need to be creative and design their own builds.


in shadowbane, me and ignis were one of the 1st players game wide on alll servers to figure out something was up with procs.
zo we made high int high defense throwing dagger rangers and bards.

People were wondering hth these rogues were proccing 1000 plus hits evertime. Its just experimenting.

Damage absorbers are fine.

people just need to learn the counter to it, and yes there are some.

I just cant wait til i get my heal on bash along with unlimited bash.

Kelleton

if you could actively purge shields off a player that could help...but you shouldn't be able to double stack.

Mayrael

Blah blah... shield do not protect from cc (i know it i have an sorc for about a year)... Two... Yeah hardened ward so stronk... About 9k in pvp... Its umm one skill + one light attack with animation cancel... It takes how much? Half a second to pierce through? And what shield u want to stack with? Oh u mean those that are aviable to all characters? Do I see a raging nightblade who cannot insta gib someone from hide? Now stamina builds have sucha DPS that one shield is melting in a second and what other shields do we have against melee skills? Healing ward efective only while you are almost dead? Barrier from support tree that is ult? Come on if u cannot handle shield stacking right now, removing this wont help u at all...

And i have not only sorc but albo stamina DK and NB, still im not complaining on shield stacking tbh when i see someone is trying to shield stack i already know that i won the fight...

Kelleton

Mayrael wrote: »

Blah blah... shield do not protect from cc (i know it i have an sorc for about a year)... Two... Yeah hardened ward so stronk... About 9k in pvp... Its umm one skill + one light attack with animation cancel... It takes how much? Half a second to pierce through? And what shield u want to stack with? Oh u mean those that are aviable to all characters? Do I see a raging nightblade who cannot insta gib someone from hide? Now stamina builds have sucha DPS that one shield is melting in a second and what other shields do we have against melee skills? Healing ward efective only while you are almost dead? Barrier from support tree that is ult? Come on if u cannot handle shield stacking right now, removing this wont help u at all...

it doesn't matter if the shields are available to everyone or not...shield stacking is broken. It does protect you from CCs that are tied to damage. If the damage doesn't hit the cc doesn't hit. You are making a very *** argument because your build is based around it.

This isn't directly tied to sorcs or anyone else...people are stacking shields because it is the best defense in the game..it completely disables someone's crit chance, it can more than double your effective HP and it grants a CC immunity to CC tied to Damage (most CCs).

Either disable stacking, give us a purge ability that strips people of their buffs/shields, or allow us to crit vs shields.

Celless

Kelleton wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Blah blah... shield do not protect from cc (i know it i have an sorc for about a year)... Two... Yeah hardened ward so stronk... About 9k in pvp... Its umm one skill + one light attack with animation cancel... It takes how much? Half a second to pierce through? And what shield u want to stack with? Oh u mean those that are aviable to all characters? Do I see a raging nightblade who cannot insta gib someone from hide? Now stamina builds have sucha DPS that one shield is melting in a second and what other shields do we have against melee skills? Healing ward efective only while you are almost dead? Barrier from support tree that is ult? Come on if u cannot handle shield stacking right now, removing this wont help u at all...

it doesn't matter if the shields are available to everyone or not...shield stacking is broken. It does protect you from CCs that are tied to damage. If the damage doesn't hit the cc doesn't hit. You are making a very *** argument because your build is based around it.

This isn't directly tied to sorcs or anyone else...people are stacking shields because it is the best defense in the game..it completely disables someone's crit chance, it can more than double your effective HP and it grants a CC immunity to CC tied to Damage (most CCs).

Either disable stacking, give us a purge ability that strips people of their buffs/shields, or allow us to crit vs shields.

Just reiterating, it does NOT protect you from the CCs. If it did, I wouldn't get stunned from teleport strike / ambush, knock back from wrecking blow, or on my knees from Agony WITH the damage shield still up.

Mayrael

@Kelleton before you write something check it... Shields do not protect you from ccs, someone behind the shield still have to hold block or use immovable which looks like shield. And did u ever played as a sorc? Doubt it. Sorc dont have any efficient self heal. We have surge which is random and dependent from damage done so its totaly unreliable and to use it u have to build your char arround this skill to events work. We have dark conversion... No comment on that, its totaly useles in PvP... We can also have as everyone else skills from resto staff... And as u can see sorc dont have any burst heal except of healing ward which has to be kept up 6s without taking any damage to work... So stacking the shields is the only way for us to heal us. Y we can run stamina build and use rally like everyone does now but what about magica build sorcs? Nightblade dont have also burst heal but with soul siphon + rapid regen + 100% crit and invisibility from shadowy disguise its quite easy to keep up with healing (i do know that cloak doesnt work as good as it should, but still its awesome skill which i always have on my bar).

Solution? Remove shield stack or even more, remove shields totaly but replace them with burst heals.

Kelleton

Mayrael wrote: »

@Kelleton before you write something check it... Shields do not protect you from ccs, someone behind the shield still have to hold block or use immovable which looks like shield. And did u ever played as a sorc? Doubt it. Sorc dont have any efficient self heal. We have surge which is random and dependent from damage done so its totaly unreliable and to use it u have to build your char arround this skill to events work. We have dark conversion... No comment on that, its totaly useles in PvP... We can also have as everyone else skills from resto staff... And as u can see sorc dont have any burst heal except of healing ward which has to be kept up 6s without taking any damage to work... So stacking the shields is the only way for us to heal us. Y we can run stamina build and use rally like everyone does now but what about magica build sorcs? Nightblade dont have also burst heal but with soul siphon + rapid regen + 100% crit and invisibility from shadowy disguise its quite easy to keep up with healing (i do know that cloak doesnt work as good as it should, but still its awesome skill which i always have on my bar).

Solution? Remove shield stack or even more, remove shields totaly but replace them with burst heals.

Have I mentioned sorcs in my posts at all other than saying this post is NOT ABOUT SORCS..its so frustrating when people focus on something that isn't even mentioned or implied in my post. This is about everyone who is shield stacking...which is pretty much every organized guild.

Shield stacking gives people 100%+ of their HP in damage shields which can not be crit against, can not be purged, maybe im wrong about cc but when I cast igneous shield I do not get knocked back from wrecking blow...maybe its a timing thing. I could be wrong about that...but that does not nullify the fact that shields right now are broken. again this isn't a sorc issue its a shield issue...separate the 2.

Mayrael

@Kelleton yes you are right, but please understand that for sorc which doesnt have any efficient heal or defensive skill shields are more important than for other classes. Sorc without shields can only run away when hes health drops low. With gap closers and incredibly high cost of bolt escape on recast it isnt so easy.

Yes i do understand that shield stacking is a problem, but it cant be done like "-hey lets make that shields wont stack -okay", cause magica sorcs wont have any option to defend and stay in a fight. Sure, we can try to run but who wants to play like that?

Bashev

Celless wrote: »

I think I read somewhere before 2.0 that damage shields no longer prevent crits.

Nope. You cannot crit a damage shield, even some CCs do not work, bleeding doesnt work, siege damage is absorbed by them and god knows how many other things do not work on damage shields.

olsborg

Remove shieldstacking, make only one shield active at any one time (healing ward excluded) since sorcs and nbs dont have a reliable instant self heal.

exiledtyrant

They could let shields stack but only allow it to stack as high as your maximum hp. Even then some concessions would have to be made to for the amount of shield loss. In PvP I can shield about 16k with hardened + healing ward or 24k with low health ward + hardened. These large shields still drop in 2-3 hits to physcial attacks. Magicka shielding I can do about 9k more so in the 30k+ range yet an an entire combo still eats the shield so fast that I find myself having to re-shield as soon as I've used it. Even in pve without the 15% reduction I find myself constantly spamming the shield . Unmitigated or not that is still to fast for the amount of damage that is being spammed. If some kind of cap it put into place some other type of mitigation is going to have to come along with it other than crit reduction.

Panda244

@Ezareth too tired to argue about why Shield Stacking is a good thing, when you wake up with your biscuits and tea do it for me?

Xsorus

I still say make dots ignore damage shields, this gives them a counter and makes dot builds
Less crappy in 1.6

Bashev

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I still say make dots ignore damage shields, this gives them a counter and makes dot builds
Less crappy in 1.6

Thats a great idea.

Kelleton

Mayrael wrote: »

@Kelleton yes you are right, but please understand that for sorc which doesnt have any efficient heal or defensive skill shields are more important than for other classes. Sorc without shields can only run away when hes health drops low. With gap closers and incredibly high cost of bolt escape on recast it isnt so easy.

Yes i do understand that shield stacking is a problem, but it cant be done like "-hey lets make that shields wont stack -okay", cause magica sorcs wont have any option to defend and stay in a fight. Sure, we can try to run but who wants to play like that?

Sorcs should get another source of survivability I agree, or maybe just a better shield overall that does not stack, but shields as a mechanic right now are wonky. You shouldn't be able to stack shields higher than your total HPs.

Cathexis

I think that infinite builds are fundamentally good, as long as they require skill in the process. I think this is true of dodge roll, blocking, bolting, whatever.

Why? For me its two fundamental reasons: it sucks traipsing across cyrodiil when you die, and long battles are more fun than short ones.

cozmon3c_ESO

again i can say that if they remove sheild stacking i will be just fine as a sorc, (how many of these damn threads are there?) i mainly just refresh healing ward over and over for nearly every hit anyway. the only time i stop using hardened ward is when i am almost dead and use healing ward instead and i can keep refreshing this over and over and it has a 3k heal attacked to it too just for casting it. nothing really changes.

the thing that pisses people off is that you dont see any effects of your damage, the ui for default shields on the health bar is absolutely the worst i think i have ever seen in a game. when people are wacking and smacking some dude and dont see any noticeble change to the hp bar they come on the forums and start crying OOOOPPPPPP!!! once the shield is gone its bye bye sorc or whoever is shield spamming, the difference between sorc and other classes is that sorc MUST spam shields to not get one or two shot.

in 1.5 i never had to use my Hardened ward as much as i do now just to survive. i die 4 times as much since 1.6 then in 1.5. where i would die maybe twice and hour in 1.5 to around 8 times an hour in 1.6. and this happens with the supposed OP shields. like i said the issue with shields is really ZoS's terrible UI for them to where you dont see your damage doing jack at all.

Kelleton

A perfect example is raids throwing barrier up, then 2-3 other shields and having 300% hp. Shields should not stack, barrier should not stack, igneous shield should not stack x number of other shields should not stack just like every other buff in the game..Im not sure why they made this whole buff system with major and minor then exclude shields from that.