Need Lore Help Here: Pact Advocate

bellanca6561n

I'd forgotten this quest, Pact Advocate. And I know it's just a game.

Yet I find it keenly disturbing that I must be on the side of these Wood Elves and their Green Pact. Apart from the sheer tragic aspects of the quest I do not understand how a religion can be based on serving the bottom of the food chain by consuming only the top of the food chain.

Plus I don't understand how using a flower can be seen as killing a plant.

Yes, I know - unlike earthly religions fabricated upon superstition, warped pattern recognition and fictitious deities, these deities - in the world of Tamriel at least - actually exist. And the effects of these beliefs are quite real as well. This town in crisis is forced to live in caves until the religion is satisfied.

I'm not steeped in the lore of this series but, based on playing this game for a year, I've grown to respect the fundamental fiction behind it.

I feel my desire for an alternate way to solve the town's problem is missing the point. Thus I'd really like some views other than my own on this.

Many thanks in advance

Enodoc

It's a bit awkward, but the essence of this quest is to convict someone for violating the Green Pact. As a Dominion operative, you must upheld the cultural traditions of the Dominion's member states, and in this instance, it's enforcing the law of the Green Pact in this village which follows it.

The plotline of the quest is based on the cutting and use of a sacred plant in a medical remedy. The direct violation of the Green Pact is the cutting of the sacred flower, but you have to decide who to convict. There is sufficient evidence available in the quest to convict any one of the suspects, so if you find it all, it's left up to you to determine who should be punished for the violation.

(I'm trying to keep my own opinion out of this summary)

• Do you convict the merchant, who was the one who cut the flower, but is not a Wood Elf?
• Do you convict the Spinner, who was researching the use of the flower, and then decided to use it only when he found it already dead?
• Do you convict the Spinner's wife, who orchestrated the cutting of the flower by the merchant and the use of it by her husband, but was only looking for a way to cure her illness, and did none of the deeds herself?

bellanca6561n

Oh I know, Enodoc.

It's an exquisitely crafted moral dilemma that makes you twist uncomfortably in your seat right up until the end.

And you're right. Failing to perform your role is not really an option. First is the reason you state - you're an operative for the Dominion. Second is the one I allude to, that in this world the Green Pact is real.

Or, referencing another allegorical fiction entirely, it's a needs of the many problem. Those Bosmers, and entire community of Bosmers, can only survive so long in that damned cave without your intervention.

But, oh, it made me so angry. I guess, in an important sense, that means it was effective

Robo_Hobo

Bosmer culture is one of the most alien when it comes to morals I'd say. Burning down your own village, in the process killing your own people, without much regret, to be able to utterly destroy your own enemies. Forcing someone to agree to terms that if they should fail to uphold them, they have to be forced to eat their own wife. Death sentence for cutting a plant to save someone's life. Poisoning yourselves in a situation where you're faced against an unbeatable foe because you know you have no chance at defeating them in combat, but also know they'll eat your corpse when you die, so the poison you take now kills them afterwards. Capturing a random, unaffiliated Bosmer, taking them away from their current lifestyle and owning, to replace someone whom died in your own tribe, and no one, not even the one who got captured, sees this as wrong. Killing your own wife because she broke the Green Pact by transforming into a wild beast so she could save your life from the enemies that were about to kill you both.

I think if the Bosmer knew how many different plants I've uprooted for alchemy reagents I'd be public enemy #1.

bellanca6561n

Yes, A Questionable Contract used that odd, cannibalistic vein of Bosmer culture for humorous effect. It was the one time I could laugh at it all.

All these customs are, of course, based on cultures that did exist though The Meat Mandate is out there.

The practice of taking prisoners to replace losses in battle was common about original American tribes in what is now the Northeastern United States. What was amusing in some cases was that the prisoner would be regarded as the person h/she replaced. For example, let's say you were an industrious sort but were replacing a person known for laziness. You'd be treated as if you were lazy, at least initially.

Talk about RP

In Colonial times the adult prisoners wanted out as you'd expect. And periodically these exchanges would happen which is how we know, in detail, some of these customs. But the children, especially the male children, did not want to return. Being a child in Colonial America was...well...not what we'd call a childhood. Children were seen as wild and willful and the purpose of childhood was to civilize them. This is why, in paintings or portraits of the time, children are depicted as miniature adults.

But I digress...

One thing I've found that sets folks off about Bosmers is that many of them are covered in dirt. This makes their often revealing outfits quite a negative.

Then again everyone must be filthy. There are no bathtubs anywhere. No toilets either. That Redguard gals with the Mohawk in Belkarth, where you drop off your crafting writ items, says she's looking forward to a hot bath....good luck with that, sweetie

SilvyrNixe

As interesting and twisted the Bosmer lore seems to be, I do kind of understand it.

If I remember correctly, the Green Pact exists because at some point the forest was nearly destroyed, which would have meant that they would have no where to hunt or live, hence the Green Pact being created so that they could regrow the forest without killing it. Also why they reserve to only killing animals, since they can breed animals and raise them much easier and faster then it takes to raise a whole forest or plants, plus they render more food.

So from their aspect I can understand why they would do everything that they do, though compared to human societies, it seems extremely odd and unwelcome.

Panda244

Bosmer = Cannibalistic Tree Hugging Savages. No excuses.


#AltmerMasterRace

bellanca6561n

Ah, Panda

Yes, DarkRaine, that's really the thing: they do what they do in large part because their religion is not so much a belief system as it is an unmistakable and present god force in their lives.

On one level all of these "races" are allegorical devices to tell human tales...which is why I feel a little ashamed at times that I get worked up over some of these stories.

But stories tell folks about themselves more than they're telling an imaginary tale with completely fictitious characters.

And, just as often as not, it tells me something about myself I'd rather not know

Archer79

The problem with ESO is that they made it look as Y'ffre only stablized Valenwood and the Bosmer people, while in fact she/he stabilized the whole of Nirn (the planet that Elder scrolls takes place in), and all of the living races. That includes humans, and beast races as well, not just the Bosmer. That alone is commendable, while the other Gods wanted to escape and the Daedric Princes causing havoc and looking for attention and admiration( looking at you Azura), Y'ffre made the Ultimate Sacrifice. with others following suet, so the Bosmer respecting her/his wishes is quit understandable.

Unfortunately ZOS made the Bosmer way to savage, its like they are goblins more than elves, if you read any of old games lore books, you will find that they are not at all as ZOS made them to be. Yes they are wild and the other races see their simple way of living as savagery, only to appear the complete opposite, I'm not saying they are the most advanced race on the face of Nirn or anything, but they are just as savage as the Dunmer, yes you might find this hard to believe but the Dunmer as a race are regarded as savages by other parts of the Empire, for different reasons like Deadra worship, living in giant insect shells and mushrooms. Yet we the players know this is not true they are an advanced and organised race, the same thing can, or in this case should be said about the Bosmer, who also live in giant trees, somewhat similar to the Dunmers mushroom homes. at least that's what I got from reading A Dance in Fire, The Black Arrow, Marksmanship Lessons, and Interview with a Swordsmaster. I don't fully believe all that is written in the Pocket Guides to the Empire regarding any of the races, because they are Imperial opinions and propaganda, aimed to be just that, and sadly ZOS took alot of that into their version of Valenwood.

Now I'm not hating on ZOS after all they delivered an enjoyable game, I am disappointed on how the region that I was looking for the most turned out to be, but still I enjoyed alot of its quests and stories, like the Spinners, Silvenar & Green Lady, Vinedusks..etc
Sorry for all the ranting, buuut I just wanted to point that out, and just say don't judge the Bosmer just yet after all we still have the single player games, which will be more detailed since it wont be a huge mmo like ESO and all of it restraints, also I don't have many TES friends so you folk would have to endure my outburst rantings.

bellanca6561n

Ramble on, old boy.

Interesting stuff, Archer79, little of which I knew.

Just finished up the quests in Malabar Tor. That was an interesting quest chain stretching back to Greenshade with Indaenir who's one of those timeless mage heroes. But you could understand the antagonist too in Malabal Tor. Of course no zone would be complete without a moment or two of unbearable choices though not on the order of Pact Advocate.

Mostly though I was simply to figure out where the hell I was most of the time. I get so lost there

But the conclusion is well done and gorgeous. This game does have a sense for the big moment.

Archer79

Really long post below, enjoy.

It is indeed enjoyable, and I love a lot of the side quests, but enough with the green pact, simply because it's rules do not add up.
See ESO's representation of the Bosmer would've been perfect for them if we were playing a game set in the Merethic Era, because the whole idea of Eplear Camoran uniting the inherently wild Bosmer and unifying Valenwood as a single nation, which is considered one of Tamriel's greatest military feats, is to show that the wild wood elves have left their old simple life styles, and have embraced a new one fit for their new Kingdom.

This also ties to what was written about them at the end of the 3rd era, that they began to leave their cities in favor of returning to their simple lives before the Camoran Dynasty. It took the Reman Empire 2700 yrs before they were able conquer Valenwood, and that in my opinion is just amazing, Valenwood mustve been a beast in the 1st era, so after reading stuff like that I got really excited for the Bosmer and just couldn't wait to see their homeland, then to my surprise ESO has really butchered them for me.

first they gave them their annoying short appearance and voice, and just completely ignored the improvements that skyrim had made for them, second everywhere u go in Valenwood its all Imperial, Altmer & Khajiit architectures and influences, only 2 or 3 villages, not even cities, are of the Bosmer style, even though we already know that they import wood to build their homes and and they also use crystallized tree sap to build the city of Silvenar (which sadly in this game is made up of three trees and about 6 huts).
The current broken Valenwood is the Valenwood I suspected to see in the 3rd era where other races fight over it and the Bosmer just don't care anymore, and they started going back to the wilderness, not the one in the 2nd era, where they still have that sense of Patriotism still lingering and isn't completely forgotten.

Finally they just gave them way too much negatives, or what we in the real world would consider to be socially awkward or just wrong, while I do love to see this kinda of stuff in fantasy or scifi settings, they just gave the Bosmer too much, which in turn made them unappealing, in contrast to the Khajiit who are just Bosmer in cat suits, yet they are more appealing to fans, yes the fact they are cats might be the main reason for most, but then when you start reading about their lore and history you'll just get attached to them, even if they are thieves, drug addicts, and big fat liars.

So what I'm trying to say is its really good to alienate the Bosmer culture, but not so much that they become unappealing and people get bored playing their zone, because of all the negative representation they are given, ease it up a little give some of these insane social norms to other races like the Imperials, or Bretons for example, just because they are humans doesn't mean they should be normal like real life humans, or the Argonains and Orcs, instead of just making them appear as Lizard Aztecs and giant green Mongols.

Dear ZOS staff I know I rant alot, but you honestly cant blame me, and I know you cant do anything now that the game is out regarding architecture, and lore, but I know you can at least do something about their HEIGHT, its cool you can make them the shortest elven race in which they would compare to the shortest human race in your game, and they are the Redguards, after all the Bretons where the shortest human race in all past games, yet they are giants in ESO.
Skyrim managed to still keep the Bosmer as the shortest race without turning them into hobbits, so I know you guys can do the same. Please consider this request, if modders can do it, then it shouldn't be hard for ZOS to do it. So even though ESO is an awesome game, you can still make it even better for your faithful followers and fans, Thank you.

bellanca6561n

Yes, they made them creepy and covered in dirt.

I just posted this in another topic but it suits this one too. This is one twisted Wood Elf....

https://youtu.be/s1am09EQAF0

Plus all logic fails with The Green Pact. Every plant is precious yet they live at the top of the food chain.

Molagent

Bosmer have more than one pact.. Basically put they're psychotic daedric worshipping cannibals. If you actually do all the quests and listen to them, you'll either find yourself amazed or absolutely terrified.

You might've noticed pretty much all Bosmer are hunters. They don't ever eat or try to hurt plant life as for one they live entirely alongside and with it. Even go out of their way to preserve and aid growth to all plant life because of the Green Pact. Which involves the Green Lady who is in simplicity a soul carried on through reincarnation of a female Bosmer of which this one speaks for all the vale. While her Silvenar speaks for the Bosmer people. So in other words, the Green Lady is the voice of plants and destroying a plant is in their eyes the destruction of the Green Lady which is usually punished with death, and if not well the Bosmer are a lil quick to jump then? The Silvenar is looked at as a King or Ambassador.