Who else thinks the current design of stamina morphs suck?

guybrushtb16_ESO

Don't get me wrong, the ability to refit class skills to stamina was absolutely a good and even neccessary change. But IMO it would have been far better if the option to replace magicka with stamina would have been a seperate one, so we could still have a choice between different kinds of utility. The current design kinda leads the whole idea of morphs ad absurdum; you get to pick between two morphs but one will be completely useless to your current build.

Frantastick

I'm glad they did it but I don't like the way they tried to make stamina builds more viable. I mean, by stamina builds, we want builds who use weapons and not magic. Making spells cost stamina doesn't make it "not magic" it just makes the magic cost stamina... Until they expand on weapon skills, I don't see a pure weapon build viable ever.

golfer.dub17_ESO

Morph1: 380 Magicka, Knockback Enemy.
Morph2: 380 Stamina, Snare Enemy

You're saying it should be more like:

Morph1: 380 Magicka, Knockback Enemy.
Morph2: 380 Stamina, Knockback Enemy.
Morph3: 380 Magicka, Snare Enemy
Morph4: 380 Stamina, Snare Enemy

Right?

I could agree with that.

DGVish

IMO there aren't enough class skill morphs based off stamina. It would have made more sense to just make a new morph and leave the other two alone. As a stamina based Nightblade there are multiple class abilities I would like to be scaled off stamina, but are quite useless as is. So it is a two way street, before it was just how things were. It's obviously a work in progress, and I imagine they will continue improving it. Things like Summon Shade and Twisting Path would be excellent abilities if they scaled off stamina. I'm sure a lot of Dragonknights feel the same way about their class abilities.

I would agree gimping magicka builds by forcing them into a specific morph is unfair because some of the stamina ones are considerably better now. Now that a lot of their content like the champion system is out I'm sure they will begin focusing on stuff like this and improving combat even more.

maryriv

Stamina should never have been equal to Magicka. Stamina should have been treated like Health because you use it for sooo much utility like block and break free. It's not even close to the same needed resource as magicka you need so much more to be effective and still live.

Rune_Relic

Before we could claim that class skills were broke as you had to be a magicka build to use them.
So now they gave us a taken gesture of one or two that done damage based off stamina/weapon instead.
Its laughable, but its a step in the right direction. /shrugs.

Basically if you want to be a weapon power based stamina build....theres no point investing in class skills.
Yet class skills are the most powerful of all.
Even if you invest 100% into stamina attribute - you get 50% magicka resource just sitting there wasted.
So you have to slot magicka skills and be a spell caster otherwise you have lost 33% of all you damage/defense resources.
Any weapons master is instantly gimped.

In contrast a magicka build can put all points into magicak get 100% magicka and 50% stamina.
But that's fine as they have to dodge roll and block anyway....there is not waste.
I can use all my resources effectively without even using a weapon.
And if I run out of damage as magica is empty...who cares...my stamina is full to dodge block.
If I run out of stamina though...well....

One day..with ESO 10.0... we wil be able to invest 100% point into stamina and have 0% wasted resource in magicka.
Then true stamina builds might actually be viable.

At the moment its magicka build or Hybrid and that's it.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I like it.

Domander

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, the ability to refit class skills to stamina was absolutely a good and even neccessary change. But IMO it would have been far better if the option to replace magicka with stamina would have been a seperate one, so we could still have a choice between different kinds of utility. The current design kinda leads the whole idea of morphs ad absurdum; you get to pick between two morphs but one will be completely useless to your current build.

Yeah, I'm not sure why abilities need to be limited to 2 morphs, I was hoping they would add a third stamina morph.

Domander

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Before we could claim that class skills were broke as you had to be a magicka build to use them.
So now they gave us a taken gesture of one or two that done damage based off stamina/weapon instead.
Its laughable, but its a step in the right direction. /shrugs.

Basically if you want to be a weapon power based stamina build....theres no point investing in class skills.
Yet class skills are the most powerful of all.
Even if you invest 100% into stamina attribute - you get 50% magicka resource just sitting there wasted.
So you have to slot magicka skills and be a spell caster otherwise you have lost 33% of all you damage/defense resources.
Any weapons master is instantly gimped.

In contrast a magicka build can put all points into magicak get 100% magicka and 50% stamina.
But that's fine as they have to dodge roll and block anyway....there is not waste.
I can use all my resources effectively without even using a weapon.
And if I run out of damage as magica is empty...who cares...my stamina is full to dodge block.
If I run out of stamina though...well....

One day..with ESO 10.0... we wil be able to invest 100% point into stamina and have 0% wasted resource in magicka.
Then true stamina builds might actually be viable.

At the moment its magicka build or Hybrid and that's it.

Every class has abilities that use magicka, but don't get better with max magicka. It's the other way around for those with higher magicka if you think of dodge and block as abilities.

Amoren

I like the idea of Stamina morphs so far, at least when it comes to Night Blade. Some of them make sense (the melee version of Killer's Blade is Stamina, the ranged, more magical version still requires magicka), but I do agree that making it a separate morph on top of the current ones might have been better (a physical version of the ranged Killer's Blade could just be a throwing weapon, for example). I really want the ambush morph that grants increased movement speed whilst stealthed, after all, but that means disregarding the stamina morph version... At least it comes with one hell of a stun if I recall.

However, at least as a Night Blade I'm going with, Magicka still has its use for Shadow Cloak, Siphoning Strikes, and potentially over useful utility powers that don't do damage.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Amoren wrote: »

I like the idea of Stamina morphs so far, at least when it comes to Night Blade. Some of them make sense (the melee version of Killer's Blade is Stamina, the ranged, more magical version still requires magicka), but I do agree that making it a separate morph on top of the current ones might have been better (a physical version of the ranged Killer's Blade could just be a throwing weapon, for example). I really want the ambush morph that grants increased movement speed whilst stealthed, after all, but that means disregarding the stamina morph version... At least it comes with one hell of a stun if I recall.

However, at least as a Night Blade I'm going with, Magicka still has its use for Shadow Cloak, Siphoning Strikes, and potentially over useful utility powers that don't do damage.

Yes, this is actually the example I had in mind. Before the change, the design of the morph system was "you get to play around with the base skill for a while, and after using it enough you get to decide which kind of utility you personally want to add to it." Of course stamina builds were gimped then and that was an issue, but it was fluent and you could see how a sense of progression and customization came into it. Often the morphs weren't quite balanced - most people chose impale over blade - but still there was some choice.

Now, instead it is "you get to play around with a skill that uses the wrong ressource for your character for a while and after using it enough you change it to the one skill you can use." Progression is not really fluent anymore, and customization is gone entirely. So in order to make stamina viable, they broke the design of the morph system when it was absolutely not neccessary. What they should have done IMO is make the very first +, when you unlock the skill, a selection between a magicka or stamina baseline version and keep the morphs as they were.

Tankqull

Frantastick wrote: »

I'm glad they did it but I don't like the way they tried to make stamina builds more viable. I mean, by stamina builds, we want builds who use weapons and not magic. Making spells cost stamina doesn't make it "not magic" it just makes the magic cost stamina... Until they expand on weapon skills, I don't see a pure weapon build viable ever.

a pure weapon build was never ment to be viable.
weapon abilities were intended to be some kind of complement to the class skills available, never a stand alone.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Tankqull wrote: »

Frantastick wrote: »

I'm glad they did it but I don't like the way they tried to make stamina builds more viable. I mean, by stamina builds, we want builds who use weapons and not magic. Making spells cost stamina doesn't make it "not magic" it just makes the magic cost stamina... Until they expand on weapon skills, I don't see a pure weapon build viable ever.

a pure weapon build was never ment to be viable.
weapon abilities were intended to be some kind of complement to the class skills available, never a stand alone.

Stamina was always a stand alone, it just didn't have enough skills to work with. The entire passive system we had was completely broken from a gameplay standpoint. It made very clear that at any point, you had to chose between going for either magicka or stamina, but you could never get both. This was true for resource pools/crit/cost reduction/resource regen/weapon or spell damage; you couldn't have both and there was little to no synergy between stamina and magicka oriented passives, so effectively you always had to chose between doing your damage with either stamina or magicka.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Me, it feels manufactured, unnatural and clunky.

McDoogs

It's resulting in less options for builds, not more, especially coupled with the removal of softcaps which has forced us to specialize in either magicka or stamina.

Fizzlewizzle

I like the idea, but its probably not very well executed.

It might have been better to make class skills work of your highest stats (Magica or Stamina), rather than having them function with Magicka or Stamina respectively. That way a player could choose its own build (magic based or melee based) and still get the most out of their skills.

Obscure

Give a kid a cookie...

I'm all for stamina viability, it's been a long time coming, however I'm not sure every skill should be able to consume either resource for the sheer fact Magicka will be the better option due to opportunity cost negation (spam Magicka, you can still CC-break and dodge. Spam stamina, you're screwed as fast as I can cast Fossilize). The concept is to literally take things away from a Magicka specialisation making it less versatile, and I think it hasn't yet gone far enough.

More class skills should have a Stamina morph option, diminishing the build versatility Magicka specialisations have taken for granted that Stamina specialisations have struggled with for so long. Builds need tradeoffs, and this should be integral to the balancing act between Stamina and Magicka, ultimately improving Hybrids with the versatility that specialisation doesn't deserve to have. The cost of specialisation is versatility, the cost of versatility is specialisation. Balance.

DeathTrap

I'd like to see abilities changed so they use the highest stat between Stamina and Magicka. Let us have the freedom to choose between Magicka and Stamina. Although, they'd probably have to give Magicka another effect, to balance Stamina affecting weapon damage and sprinting...

Amoren

DeathTrap wrote: »

I'd like to see abilities changed so they use the highest stat between Stamina and Magicka. Let us have the freedom to choose between Magicka and Stamina. Although, they'd probably have to give Magicka another effect, to balance Stamina affecting weapon damage and sprinting...

Magicka affects damage with the destruction and restoration staff if I recall, so they're equivalent in that regard, no?

As for stamina also being used for sprinting, CC breaking, blocking, etc, it would allow one to do more of that if they don't use their abilities (allowing for stamina builds to sprint for longer and more often with faster recovery), but Magicka does allow one to use certain utility spells more often (like Night Blade invisibility off hand, or healing spells for recovery).