Let's Discuss Vampire and untransformed Werewolf passives

Rylana

Okay so... I get it that most of the WW skill line is shut off unless you activate the ultimate, but one thing actually bothers me.

Without investing a single skill point into either tree you get the following:

Vampire: 21% ability cost reduction (vamp skill line only), 40% fire damage penalty. For anything else you have to invest points (undeath, supernatural recovery, etc)

Werewolf: 15% in combat stamina regen, even when not transformed. Without investing a single skill point into the line you get this massive flat bonus.

Why? There seems to be an imbalance here. The in combat stamina regen should be a passive granted by inputting two skill points just like Supernatural recovery is for vampires. The poison resist penalty should also apply even when not in WW form.

Otherwise it seems a bit lopsided.

Discuss.

Rylana

Since i cannot edit my OP, id point out the skill cost reduction for vamps scales based on stage, which also reduces health recovery significantly at the same time.

WW doesnt have any penalty and just gets a flat bonus to something.

Zalathorm

And yet vampire has been vastly superior and seen far more use since the start of ESO. Suddenly werewolves need a nerf eh? Then there would be.....zero reasons to be a ww

Rylana

Tellefson22b14_ESO wrote: »

And yet vampire has been vastly superior and seen far more use since the start of ESO. Suddenly werewolves need a nerf eh? Then there would be.....zero reasons to be a ww

So everything is kosher so long as its "sticking it to someone"

Right?

Robotmafia

Agreed.

I also feel the 40% fire damage still causes to high of a disadvantage for PVE.. 30% would be more acceptable

Zalathorm

Rylana wrote: »

Tellefson22b14_ESO wrote: »

And yet vampire has been vastly superior and seen far more use since the start of ESO. Suddenly werewolves need a nerf eh? Then there would be.....zero reasons to be a ww

So everything is kosher so long as its "sticking it to someone"

Right?

Err, what? From what I've gathered, sticking it to WW is exactly what you are suggesting.

Khivas_Carrick

Vampires are always in vampire mode though, whereas a WW only gets their power every so often, that's why it's like that. Plus the stamina regen from being a WW currently doesn't work

Davadin

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Vampires are always in vampire mode though, whereas a WW only gets their power every so often, that's why it's like that. Plus the stamina regen from being a WW currently doesn't work

Exactly.

At first I thought it's imbalanced too, but the fact is vamp is always a vamp. The plus always comes with the negative.

*THAT BEING SAID*, if it's up to me, I'll put WW's passive 15% stam into active - you only get it when you're a WW. That's only fair.

*not* removing it completely.

Khivas_Carrick

Then you should make being a WW in WW form should be way easier

CP5

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Then you should make being a WW in WW form should be way easier

Thats my main point for letting the WW keep the stamina regen in human form. The skill tree requires 21 skill points for what is effectively a short term dps buff. Without this passive there would be very little to justify becoming a WW.

In my opinion the stamina regen should be tied to # of skill points invested in the skill tree ( 0.5% regen in human form, 1% regen in ww for a max of 11% and 22%). This would make the skill tree something you would need to progress to rank 10 in and put points into to get the most out of it. However, again going to what Khivas said, the transformation would need a lot more usability to be worth that.

Crescent

Um, vampire passives are vastly superior. 30+% reduced damage at low health with undeath? 10% Stamina AND magicka regen (that's 20% regen boost compared to only 15% stamina)?

And then there's the fact you move at normal speed in stealth, and you don't need to waste an ultimate slot that removes all your skills and toggles/buffs to benefit from vampirism.

Emma_Overload

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Plus the stamina regen from being a WW currently doesn't work

Is that really true? Is there any confirmation that WW Stamina regen bonus is bugged?

Rylana

Clarification and rebuttal

Undeath and Supernatural recovery for vamps requires 4 skill points of investment. Even though this is then on at all times and is perceived as superior to the 15% werewolf stamina regen, it still costs the vampire player four skill points (as well as leveling up vampire skill line) to unlock.

A player as a WW just does the Hircine quest and that 15 percent stam regen is on permanently, no skill point or leveling of the skill line required.

That is my beef.

Solutions:

1. Place the stam recovery into the WW passives tree and require three skill points to unlock 5/10/15. WW levels 2, 4 and 6. This changes nothing on how the skill works, merely adds a fair cost in to have it active 100 percent of the time.

2. Put supernatural recovery into the base vampire stage buff and remove that dot from the passives tree, fully unlocked upon completion of the Blood Matron quest (stage 1 = no bonus, stage 2 = 3 percent, stage 3 = 5 percent, stage 4 = 10 percent) to put it in line with "transformation".

Huckdabuck

And the free permanent stamina regen is the main reason that if you're not a vampire then you have no reason to not be a WW.

Skafsgaard

Yes, this is why Im a WW. Who can say no to free 15% stam regen? Esp now in 1.6

I also think, that 15% regen of ONE resources is actually better than 10% regen of 2 resources.

Clutch

Rylana wrote: »

WW doesnt have any penalty and just gets a flat bonus to something.

I thought Poison did affect while in humanmode?

Tellefson22b14_ESO wrote: »

And yet vampire has been vastly superior and seen far more use since the start of ESO. Suddenly werewolves need a nerf eh? Then there would be.....zero reasons to be a ww

Well, at launch it was a very different story. Vamps had sustain and Weres did not, all a WW had was its fear mechanic via roar and the stun from their leap. Otherwise, you were a joke even against non-Undaunted focused players.

Khivas_Carrick

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Plus the stamina regen from being a WW currently doesn't work

Is that really true? Is there any confirmation that WW Stamina regen bonus is bugged?

I had 795 regen as a WW. I cured it, and saw I still had 795 regen. Sadly it was never in effect.

Panda244

What? A constructive post from Rylana? Surely this is some attempt to farm insightfuls...

On a serious note, WW is fine, Vampires get All their buffs and All their negatives at once, Werewolves get no negatives and only one positive, the WW transformation is so absurdly *** that it's only worth the free stam regen. If they ever change that, and give WWs some more buffs that work while in human form, I'm all up for making the extra poison damage apply. But until WW is worth a damn besides the stam regen, I'd say it's semi-balanced, and @Rylana you gotta factor in the fact that Undeath/Batswarm are two of the most powerful abilities/passives in the entire game, back in 1.5 and before, a vampire Sap Tank was virtually invulnerable inside their own veil of blades on low health. I took a screenshot of my death recap on Nutella once when i dabbled in vampire, 5 executes, all mage's wrath explosion, for like 200 dmg.

Now it's not as strong anymore, and honestly I wouldn't mind buffing vamps and leaving WWs the way they are, because of the Undaunted Skill Line facerolling any and all vamps in Cyrodiil.

my 2 cents

Domander

I would say WW is currently fine, however I will agree that right now there is no reason not to go werewolf, and no reason to spend points in it if you don't want to use it.

I would be interested to see a skill line that only applies if you're not either, even if it's less powerful.

Kahrgan

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Vampires are always in vampire mode though, whereas a WW only gets their power every so often, that's why it's like that. Plus the stamina regen from being a WW currently doesn't work

umm what? my character sheet before and after WW quest is done, says otherwise.

Septimus_Magna

The LA damage mitigation and fire resist glyph nerfs made end game pve content unviable for vamps. Batswarm still is a good ulti but meteor does more damage and is available without any disadvantages.

Being a WW gives a 'free' 15% stamina regen bonus which is especially nice for stamina builds but also nice for magicka builds because it comes without disadvantages. Transforming into a ww is only viable for stamina builds and even then its probably not the best way to spend ultimate. Also being a ww is a good way to make some easy money each week by transforming other players.

Skafsgaard

I will cure myself of WW and I will remove gear and *** before/after to have a look at that 15% value - I of course, just assumed it worked . I was tired of the vamp playstyle and actually wanted to be 'human' (Altmer) but who can say no to free 15% regen? Right?

So all who dont want either, should still be WW though.

Can someone clarify:

1. Does 40% EXTRA poison damage taken apply to you ONLY when in WW form or always (like vamp?)

2. Same but with fighter guild abilities.

Thank you

frould

LOL if we can stay in werewolf form all times and can still able to use class & weapon skills, yesh that should nerf.

frould

@Skafsgaard I'm not test myself but Lycanthropy buff say very clear. Take 40% more damage from poison attacks while in ww form.

Roechacca

No

david_m_18b16_ESO

Different abilities have differents cost,benefit and penalty.

Vampire doesn't have to balanced around wherewolfs and vice versa.

Aren_Liore

I always assumed ww players still took extra damage from the applicable fighter's guild skills regardless of their form. The extra poison damage IS only for while you're in ww form.

I don't want that poison damage to be active while I'm in WW too, so I don't see any reason to change it back. (I complained about taking that damage 24/7 for a long time) I do think the flat stamina buff should require you to put skill points into a passive that you have to level up (a good bit) to unlock.

I do agree with the main point of this post though, and I'd like to see some reason to not become a werewolf that doesn't kill us. Being a ww should be special, and at least moderately rare.

cmontgomeryerns

I think it's pretty fair, I mean at the end of the day, vampire is a constant transformation, your positive buffs (and there are alot) are always there, we get one positive constant buff and our transformation has a very limited time frame.
Transformed werewolf vs full blown vampire stands little chance of winning a fight, the transformation would run out, then the extra stamina is needed to dodge the onslaught of attacks.
Vampires already have a massive advantage, without werewolves getting nerfed.

CaptainObvious

The part missed on vampire is the active tree. The single damaging component is a one time per target use that can and will be CC broken. Otherwise you have the ability to turn into a puff of smoke and hope that your opponents die via 2nd hand smoke or run away. So that reduction in vamp ability cost isn't all that much of an asset.

Lynx7386

A vampire always had access to his vampire skills, and can mix them with class and weapon skills in combat.

A werewolf cannot, and also has a limited duration in which to use those werewolf abilities. Thus, they get a little extra perk.

Furor

One of the biggest issues I have with vampire is just the simple fact that while both WW and Vampire take 40% increased damage from an element, fire is so much more prevalent across the boards in both pve and pvp. Dragonknights will destroy my Nightblade, inferno destruction staffs are incredibly popular, and just about every mob loves to reign down fire... With the exception of a few bow abilities I don't know of many other poison damaging ability.

This is pretty much the sole reason why I don't play a Vampire anymore.