What is the logic behind some of the sneaking changes?

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

I enjoy sneaking around and seeing what I can get away with. I have fun sneaking into an area full of hostile creatures, farming a resource and sneaking away un-noticed. I'm basically a shark in PvE, sneaking around, looking for resources I want to take, and choosing what enemies I want to fight. Because of this, I gravitate towards the Night Blade. Sneaking and assassinating is what that class is all about. Unless you are in Cyrodil, then it's like Skynet has infiltrated the area and populated it with T-800s.

So , with that in mind, when it comes to armour choice you would think that medium armour would be best. Offers a fair amount of protection, and doesn't hamper sneaking ability too much. So, what is the logic behind Shadow Barrier? It seems strange that a Night Blade skill would be tied to heavy armour. I really can't see an assassin being good at their job when they think running around in full plate armour leads to successful stealth kills. It's not a game breaker, just seems weird.

The next bit however, is a game breaker for me. Because I like being in sneak and took the speed bonus whilst I'm in sneak. It now sounds like I have Ric Flair with asthma. WH WH WH WH WH WH all the time! I do not need audio confirmation that I'm in sneak e or if someone sees me. You have already covered confirmation with the eye, the more the eye is open, the more I know someone has their attention on me. It is annoying. And annoying so much that I will happily walk away from the game and steer clear from any future releases of the franchise. Please for the love of sanity remove that sound from the game. I would really like to get on and enjoy the rest of the update.

Shunravi

Well, as to your first issue, nignhtblade does not mean rogue. Sure it has better stealth synergy than other classes, but it's functionality is not restricted to stealth and assassination. Some nightblades play a shadowknight/dreadknight/deathnight character, and some play a warlock/bloodmage. Those are really just two examples... But the heavy armor synergy is designed for Nightblade tanks. What seems weird to me is that people try to stereotype the classes like this, but that's traditional roles I guess...

As to the second, yes, it's annoying. It could certainly be changed.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

It's nothing to do with stereotyping. Shadow Barrier... I cast a spell that makes me invisible... Doesn't cast an aura of no sound, the heavy armour is going clunk clunk clunk.

As for your examples. Well when any class splinters off from the main class they develop their own set of skills usually making a hybrid of the skills between the two classes you are combining. However, officially the Night Blades is the assassin class of Elder Scrolls. So my argument still stands that not many successful assassins go stomping around in full plate armour as assassins are traditionally associated with stealth and the words "full plate mail" and "stealth" have never really fitted well together.

Now I'm not against it, different workmen will use a different tool to do the same job. And everyone has a different play style. However instead of changing core skills for a class, create hybrid classes that combines the skills to create something unique. So off shoots from Nightblade for example, your shadow knight that leans more towards the heavy armour and weapons from DK, but with the precision and agility of use from the assassin. A NB/Templar combination which heals the team as it kills. NB/Caster will just end up getting nerfed to hell.

curlyqloub14_ESO

Agree - sound is annoying.

But I'd also add the new animation and...coloring. Does no one else think they are bad? I liked 'slipping into shadow' before - but now my character looks like she's covered in oil. It's too much, looks awful. And the animation...why is it so, for lack of a better word, gimpy? All lopsided and odd - one hand and knee practically dragging on the ground. I told my guildmates last night: if only we had a gorilla mask - it would totally work - we could all RP our favorite primates.

Hawke

curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »

but now my character looks like she's covered in oil. .

Some people like "oil covered people"

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

I haven't paid attention to that yet @curlyqloub14_ESO but I'll watch out for it... But I'll more then likely have my eyes close in pain listening to the last dying barks of Lassie as I go into sneak mode.

@Hawke I was going to say something like that... But I thought we could be entering into dangerous territory and I do have a hidden agenda with this thread

Gilvoth

i love the dark look and becoming pitch black cause it makes me alot harder to be seen.
i also love the new animation of sneaking and i love the sounds stealth makes.
please dont change anything about stealth, its perfect right now.

Shunravi

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

It's nothing to do with stereotyping. Shadow Barrier... I cast a spell that makes me invisible... Doesn't cast an aura of no sound, the heavy armour is going clunk clunk clunk.

But that is stereotyping. Cloak is not the only ability that activates Shadow Barrier. And its not the only ability in the shadow line. With the duration of Shadow Barrier working with heavy armor, by design I may add, wouldn't you think that heavy armor is intended for the class at least in some instances? No? ok then.

As for your examples. Well when any class splinters off from the main class they develop their own set of skills usually making a hybrid of the skills between the two classes you are combining. However, officially the Night Blades is the assassin class of Elder Scrolls. So my argument still stands that not many successful assassins go stomping around in full plate armour as assassins are traditionally associated with stealth and the words "full plate mail" and "stealth" have never really fitted well together.

The Assassin is the assassin of the Elder Scrolls http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin

The Nightblade is the magica version of that http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

But you are right, assassins usually are not associated with heavy armor. So then why did they redesign abilities around heavy armor? Oh yea... nightblades in eso are not traditional Elder Scrolls nightblades. So my argument stands that nightblade does not mean rogue. They are not strictly assassins.

Every class in this game is a hybrid by default. They all have skills that will benefit different playstlyes. I do not agree with your assessment that the 'main class' purpose is to be the rogue playstyle. So, to me, its not 'splintering off.' And apparently ZOS agrees.

Now I'm not against it, different workmen will use a different tool to do the same job. And everyone has a different play style. However instead of changing core skills for a class, create hybrid classes that combines the skills to create something unique. So off shoots from Nightblade for example, your shadow knight that leans more towards the heavy armour and weapons from DK, but with the precision and agility of use from the assassin. A NB/Templar combination which heals the team as it kills. NB/Caster will just end up getting nerfed to hell.

So.... how does this change not support hybridization? Working surprise attack into your dps rotation will give you the buff, and as you can sustain it better that a tank, you can use it frequently. The tank needs the duration as it will not be able to spam it as much. Or is that not your argument?

Again, every class is intended to be hybrid. There is no strictly one way or the other. Thats what ZOS designed, and its what they are continuing to balance towards.

How in any way does heavy armor or sword and shield 'belong' to DK? (or DW/bow belong to NB for that matter...)They are open skill lines available to everyone. Just because they don't fit into what you think the class is does not mean that they are not for the class.

They also boosted NB heals. Healing is not exclusive to Templars and it never has been.

And again I strongly disagree with your perspective of 'off shoots' based on what you think the class is.

I have no delusions of convincing you to my perspective. I have argued enough about the openness of the system to know that people probably won't change their bias, I know I wont.

Annyways, have a good time out there man!

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

@Shunravi Ok you gone and quoted websites, well here is mine. http://elderscrollsonline.info/nightblade stating that the NBs is the assassin class of ESO. I'm not going to split hairs about it, but the source I used is on ESO not Oblivion. From what I understand, ESO is based way before the events of the previous games. Applying logic or common sense, I would say that the 4 classes of this game is what would create the various classes or specialisations of the other games because if you look at the classes of the other game you can identify which came from NB, what came from DK and so on, hence splintering off. It would be pretty easy to create a family tree of classes of the other game and identify which are the parent classes.

From the character creation screen "Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift of getting in and out of trouble.Relying variously on stealth, blade, and speed, Nightblades thrive on conflict and misfortune, trusting on their luck and cunning to survive." Points to note I have NEVER called a Nightblade a rogue, that is your interpretation.

Now, from the wording of the description given to us by the people that created the class, focusing on the stealth and speed, then it goes against logic to tie a skill within the nightblade class to heavy armour. Unless you know something I don't, it's pretty difficult to sneak in full plate and you certainly don't want to be doing the 100m sprint.

I never said healing is exclusive to Templars, but Templars make good heals. It's like you mentioned earlier about synergy.

Each class is a hybrid, well yeah but it depends on what your classifications are. Personally I would take out basic core skills like swing a sword from the classes because anyone can do that and then apply rules of Normalisation to break a class down to core classes. Sooner or later you will get to a point where a class can not be broken down any more.

Now, I am not going on what I think the class should be, that is a ball firmly in your court. What I am going on is what ZOS have stated.

So, back to Shadow Barrier. It is the "by design" I am question because by logic it doesn't make sense especially when applied to the sources I've stated.

So am I still being stereotypical?

Vanchatron

I noticed that too, very odd. Heavy Armour NB? No thanks.

Kronosphere

aah yup so a random website vs bethesda official class description.. ok. anyways=P it doesnt matter if its the assasin class or not because every class was made with the intention for the player to "play how you want" so they do support some odd builds to reinforce this idea. the end.

point 2 is a joke, u seriously hate a sound effect THAT much u would quit playing the entire game about and all other games by the franchise? dont know how to continue this without insulting you.. let me try... you are clearly over reacting and over exaggerating such a small thing. if you wanna quit over that u must BARELY like the game then. so in that case just leave, we dont want to inconvenience your poor little eary wearies any further.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

@Kronosphere Seriously go around in sneak all the time, you will get annoyed really quickly. I go out into the wilderness to farm for resources to keep the guild stock up and only go into fights where I know I'm going to get what I need from them like hides. All other fights I tend to avoid. After 2 hours of listening to WH WH WH, it drives you insane. So if you think the game comes before sanity then that's your call. And I do believe I said all future releases. You kind of make a decision on future purchases with previous experience. Morrorwind, great, Oblivion amazing, Skyrim, didn't play it much due to the arrow I took to the knee, ESO, WH WH WH WH WH!!!

Admittedly, I can easily remedy this and just kill everything and not go into sneak at all. So I'm off to go craft myself an nice set of full plate armour after I've spent 2 hours watching leekspin.com to regain my sanity. (Before anyone asks it's 46 seconds before I scream at the screen what is the point)

I think you might have missed the bit where I quoted directly from the character creation screen, that is actually in the game. I'm not disputing the freedom that is given. Yet when the description states that this class values speed and stealth you don't expect to be doing it in full plate armour. Is it me or are people missing that point.

Kronosphere

ah fair enough. for some reason, i cant actually hear it? the sneaky sounds u mention? odd..\

EDIT: nvm i hear em now. lol

Shunravi

@stewart.leslie76b16_ESO I'm just arguing with you for the sake of argument. That's what forums are for after all, discussion. and I'm bored so your thread is my latest interest. And your comment about quitting because of a sound effect amused me, so I thought I would poke you a bit.

And since we are linking sites, http://elderscrollsonline.info/classes.

I particularly like the lines "Does not matter what class you choose, you can use all weapons and armour types anyway. It is your choice what type of armour to use: heavy, light or medium leather. The same applies to weapons, you can wield any weapon and fight as you wish. So classes in ESO do not restrict you to only using a limited set of gear." <also something the guys who created the classes said. A bit contradictory to the argument you are using, wouldn't you think? Or maybe its just me... Probably just me....

I like your future class breakdown. Very nice point

And it is certainly true that I am the one throwing around the term rogue. I guess I'm just trying to summarize what I see as your perspective. Which to me is viewing the class as a stereotype. One I don't agree with no matter the descriptltion they slapped on.

As for the templar bit, maybe I read too much into "A NB/Templar combination which heals the team as it kills." Which to me seems like you are saying Templars are for healing, and if you want to you can mix your Nightblade with some heals to make a NB/Templar hybrid.... As if nightblades didn't have group heals as part of the class or something.

Alright, let's break down the class. Ignoring, of course, the swinging of swords and the wearing of armor and such things that every class can do, even if they are "the heavy armour and weapons from DK." And as you have so graciously alowed for the ball to be in my court for the interpretation of the class, I would say that I interpret the class to be free to do what it wants as per my first comment. Where, from my perspective, you decided to rebute my statement by saying that the class had to be one way, and that any variations were "splinters" from this core truth.

(Btw, have I mentioned how much I hate the descriptions for the classes in this game? Because I hate the descriptions for the classes in this game.)

So let's take the skills as they are now.

We have the assassination line; crit in the passives (great for assassinating), a finishing move, a tp strike, a defensive dodge chance move, a mark that lets your target and everyone on the field know that he's the target, a magic nuke that takes successive hits to charge.... Huh, those last three don't seem overly 'assassin' to me... They either are only effective in a longer fight (your assassination failed and now you are fighting a pitched battle) or actually let your target know you are coming... At least the ult is a good burst of damage. And it looks cool too.

Ok then, shadow. Good passives... Stam regen (great for marathons or marathon blocking), a boost to hp for each shadow ability slotted... It almost would seem by this that the line was intended to have synergy with tanking... A duration increase, and the newly changed defensive buff that has increased duration with heavy armor... That tanking synergy feeling is getting stronger. Well, let's look at the skills. There is a shadow cloak (an ability every assassin should love as it lets them get out of a sticky situation, that is unless of course they are fighting an extended pitched battle with their assassin abilities because they let the target know they were coming...), a shadowy strike that stuns out of stealth (excellent for assassination, or can be used for a debuff), a shadowy aoe with limited range, but that boosts kiting ability and does decent enough damage and can also heal... A fear, and a summon debuff. Now, these abilities are certainly useful in an assassination, and thanks to the passives, they could also work very nicely defensively. The Ult is awesome, because it has a smokebomb effect and mitigates damage... Almost as if it could synergise with tanking.

Then we have siphoning. Some Ult gain in the passives, bonus healing, good stuff. Strife, a damage ability with a heal over time and that can be morphed to group heal, a lockdown ability similar to ones from other classes but also inferior, a solid dot that also can slow the target, a reduction in damage in exchange for great sustained fights, and an aoe that takes your enemies life force and boosts your power. I don't know about you, but there is a definate feeling of warlock/bloodmage in this line for me. Maybe you feel different? Then the Ult stuns and leeches hp. Pretty solid.

I don't know... To me with passives taken into account, that seems pretty open to hybrid to me.

And yes, I do still think you are being stereotypical by stating the sources you did, as they are themselves stereotypical. From my interpretation of a class breakdown, they did a good job with shadow barrier in that it can be maintained whether you are tank, healer, or dps.

I like you. You argue good. :P

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

@Kronosphere Don't do it... Just came out of another 2 hour run, I'm now going to the shop to buy nicotine

@Shunravi Both sides must be argued for a happy medium to be found. I'm all for freedom of choice, but there has to be limits so them choices do not enter the realm of the completely stupid. I can't remember if the games like Oblivion had a penalty for sneaking if you were in heavy armour ( I was playing it as well 24 hours ago).

The NB/Temp thing. Yes and no mate. I believe one of the skills now can be morphed so that it gives an ally a bit of healing as well. Even though any class can go into the healing line Templars will get a bit more bang for the buck from it. A hybrid of the 2 would allow for the templar synergy with healing with the sneaky side of the NB. How about a resurrection that is at touch range and cloaked during the time it takes to resurrect and 2 seconds after to get your bearings back? Armour could go either way depending on how close you want to be to the fight.

Each of the current 4 classes can be combined in many different combinations to create a new class which is what I meant as a hybrid.

The description they have on character creation is the be all and end all. There is no argument against it because it's set in stone. And because they are set in stone then I can't be stereotyping as I'm stating fact. Otherwise what are the classes for. You are better off just creating a character then all skill trees are available from the start and you can pick and choose what you like. That would kill this argument dead. But they do have classes and them classes by nature are associated with certain tools. Yes you can use other tools to do the job but don't expect your class to cover them. If I was being a stereotypical I would say all Bosmer should be archers, all Bretons should be casters and all Dunmer get a little too excited when you take them to a grave yard.... But who wants to play a cookie cutter RPG..

It's your choice to hate the descriptions, but at the end of the day you expect a surgeon to be trained as a surgeon with a scalpel, and not trained as a lap dancer with a katana mainly becuase it's kind of in their job description. And don't you dare come up with tree surgeon as I'm on a very low nicotine level atm!

Actually, I totally worded the bit about the class covering a choice wrong. It should have been the skill within the class has to make logical sense. For example being in heavy armour is noisy so it doesn't matter if you turn invisible or not as the enemy will know exactly where you are by following the clunk. If anything it should give you a penalty for being in heavy armour.

Rosveen

NB tanks happen to exist, you know. If we follow your reasoning, we end up pigeonholing classes into specific builds; when this started happening to sorcerers, the forum roared with refusal. This is Elder Scrolls and your starting point isn't necessarily where you'll end up.

Nightblades are not assassins, they are stealhy individuals using magic to enhance their mobility and concealment. Stealth doesn't equate to assassination, even though video games tend favor combat-focused characters. Still, they could be thieves or spies, and as it happens in ESO with the Siphoning line, also excellent deathknights.

I have no idea how useful the incrased duration of Shadow Barrier is, but given that previously it didn't have that boost at all, I think it's pretty nice to have it now even if it doesn't help your build, isn't it?

Armann

Threads like these tells me classes or rather the name of classes and their description could've been better handled. ZoS has always said classes were just a starting point. I am a Nord Nightblade currently specced as a mage, to some that doesn't make sense at all, but this is Elder Scrolls. In fact, the DW/Bow medium armor setup that people think NB's should be interests me the least of all setups. The way shadow barrier increase its duration with the use of heavy armor is no more out of place than a DK's Igneous Shield boosting their healing output.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

Tell you what guys, if you lot want just 4 basic classes with the ability to morph it any you want. I'm happy to leave it be. I give up. If you want to continue then feel free to message me and I'll happily talk in private about it.

My 2nd point of the OP still stands though.

Shunravi

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

@Shunravi Both sides must be argued for a happy medium to be found. I'm all for freedom of choice, but there has to be limits so them choices do not enter the realm of the completely stupid. I can't remember if the games like Oblivion had a penalty for sneaking if you were in heavy armour ( I was playing it as well 24 hours ago).

Well, I usually don't sneak when I'm in heavy armor.

The NB/Temp thing. Yes and no mate. I believe one of the skills now can be morphed so that it gives an ally a bit of healing as well. Even though any class can go into the healing line Templars will get a bit more bang for the buck from it. A hybrid of the 2 would allow for the templar synergy with healing with the sneaky side of the NB. How about a resurrection that is at touch range and cloaked during the time it takes to resurrect and 2 seconds after to get your bearings back? Armour could go either way depending on how close you want to be to the fight.

group healing within the nightblade skill lines is nothing new. It has been part of the class since the beginning.

Each of the current 4 classes can be combined in many different combinations to create a new class which is what I meant as a hybrid.

Each of the current 4 classes inherently carry abilities that support various roles which is what I mean by hybrid. No mix and match required.

The description they have on character creation is the be all and end all. There is no argument against it because it's set in stone. And because they are set in stone then I can't be stereotyping as I'm stating fact. Otherwise what are the classes for. You are better off just creating a character then all skill trees are available from the start and you can pick and choose what you like. That would kill this argument dead. But they do have classes and them classes by nature are associated with certain tools. Yes you can use other tools to do the job but don't expect your class to cover them. If I was being a stereotypical I would say all Bosmer should be archers, all Bretons should be casters and all Dunmer get a little too excited when you take them to a grave yard.... But who wants to play a cookie cutter RPG..

The descriptions in this game are meaningless and superceded by the part I quoted. But, this right here summarizes why I absolutaly hate the class system in this game. I do not believe that creating classes in the way they did was a good idea.

Here's the thing man... I have tanked every bit of content in this game on my nightblade. You name it, I've tanked it. That includes vDSA, SO, and PvP zergs. And this was done using abilities inherent to the class, not borrowed from another.

I have caster dpsed every bit of content in the game. Again, you name it and I've caster dpsed it. (Edit to add: this is using all class skills for dps I might add. Which is more than most caster dps can claim.)

Healing is the only aspect I have not done in all the content, but I know nightblades who have. Although, my caster build inherently heals the group, so you could say I've healed everything...

And do you know what I've done the least in all my time playing a nightblade? Stealth. I do not use stealth any more on my Nightblade than I do on my templar, sorcerer, or DragonKnight. I have actually had to be reminded that I have cloak in my skills during skip-trash runs when I have disconnected, because I use the skill so infrequently.

And this is is also the reason I disagree with you.

It's your choice to hate the descriptions, but at the end of the day you expect a surgeon to be trained as a surgeon with a scalpel, and not trained as a lap dancer with a katana mainly becuase it's kind of in their job description. And don't you dare come up with tree surgeon as I'm on a very low nicotine level atm!

XD

I hate the descriptions because they are not supported by my experience. They do not define the classes at all.

I know a DK healer who I would trust to heal me through more than many templar healers I have met. I know a templar DW/bow user who could probably out dps 98%+ of all dpsers in the game. (He is also an accomplished tank and healer.) I know sorcs who tank, heal, and dps, and they do it very well. Classes are just flavor. Their descriptions are meaningless when it comes down to it.

Actually, I totally worded the bit about the class covering a choice wrong. It should have been the skill within the class has to make logical sense. For example being in heavy armour is noisy so it doesn't matter if you turn invisible or not as the enemy will know exactly where you are by following the clunk. If anything it should give you a penalty for being in heavy armour.

But on my nightblade tank spec, I don't use stealth. I use class skills that support tanking. As a matter of fact, this change has elevated my nightblade tanking beyond what it already was. it absolutely makes sense for that spec. The only thing that is barring things from making logical sense is your insistance that the class is meant for one role. It isn't. That is a stereotype I don't agree with.

As I already said, I'm under no delusions that I can change your mind. And it rather saddens me that you have requested to keep further discussion private. But after this post, I will oblige.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

Then you're not a Nightblade, you may have started off as one. For example, I started my working life as a combat medic. I'm now a business analyst. I use some skills I learnt as a combat medic, but I don't expect a combat medic to learn how to make an ERD or understand what RAD is. Does that mean I'm still a combat medic?

Like I said, I have no problem with with character progression as it is. What I do have a problem with is that players expect to be able to mutate a class within the character and still be considered the original class. A rifleman is taught basic first aid, he can go off and learn more advanced first aid where some skills contradict what he was originally taught. But them skills which contradict are not taught in basic first aid. He can continue that training line all the way, but at some point he is no longer a rifleman.

Like I said if you're happy with having FOUR basic classes, and have the skills within them FOUR classes changed so that any possible build is able to use them then you're happy with it.

Rosveen

You're too hung up on the class names. The problem is, we can't change our class name - we're stuck with the name ZOS gave us. However, we can name our builds and if you visit the Battlemaster's Corner, you'll see characters like the Berserker, the Bastion of Night or the Shadow Knight. Does this work for you?

xaraan

Because Nightblades are not all about being thieves and being sneaky. They do other stuff too, they are tanks and casters and their powers should support more than one role. "Nightblade" is not a synonym for thief.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

The problem is we can't change our class name. Seriously?

You don't think the problem is people reading the first line and basing a comment on that without thinking about it?

You don't think the problem is no one has yet to acknowledge that I've stated many times I have no problem with character progression as it is?

You don't think the problem is even though I'm stating that skills shouldn't be so that it goes against what the class is more favoured for, you remember "stealth, blade, and speed", I have never said that they should exclusively be that way?

You don't think the problem is even though some NBs do this, some NBs do that, that changing skills so that it fits around that particular build might be considered by some as lazy? And as a class can't evolve just like the character, that more specialised classes or skill tress could be the way forward. For example, the NB in heavy armour (I'm sure I mentioned this earlier), it's pretty well established the stealth, speed and heavy armour are not really used positively in the same sentence. Yet we acknowledge they do exist. So instead of changing a skill so that build has more functionality, a developer sit back looks at what is happening, goes off for a coffee and the thought pops up "What skills would a NB in heavy armour actually use and how would them skills be changed to make that NB in heavy armour stand out from the rest of the crowd?" Then once enough active and passive skills have been formulated, developed, tested, the dev comes forward and says "Hey guys, look at what we've created for you NBs in heavy armour, we think you might like it."

You don't think the problem is that I can't out right say "instead of changing class skills why don't you do this" because it might cause a problem with intellectual property?

No, it's none of that. The problem is I'm hung up on class description and i should be happy we have FOUR classes that I can mutate in anyway I see fit. And apparently that all NBs should be thieves. Can someone point out to me when I said they should be thieves please? I remember the assassin bit, but that was down to me using information from a 3rd party website.

Now just out of a matter of interest. I like playing as a scout in PvP, I don't mind being told by the group commander go out and watch this point and me let me know and warn me of any development. I love the more tactical side of a battle. Once in a while I do run into a group where they are more tactical in the battles. I work with the tools I have available. Can't really provide much apart from providing information. It would be nice if I could trap an area to stop reinforcements to consider taking a different route. I would like to be able to sneak closer to a keep or resources without the T-800s guarding them spotting me when I'm no where near them. I mean seriously, I can sneak up on a spider on it's own web and it doesn't know I'm behind it. Yet the Mender at the front gate know's I'm behind a hill?