ZOS, is there anything we can do to convince you not to go live with this Champion System?

spoqster

Dear @ZOS_MattFiror,

There have been many threads detailing that the current system is too vertical, how the current balance puts too little emphasis on diversification and how this system makes players too powerful over time.

There have been many posts detailing why a horizontal endgame progression system is better suited for binding customers, no matter what the business model, and thus for maximizing revenue. Many of those posts are by industry experts, only that you can't tell because we are posting under our pseudonyms.

There also have been many suggestions on how to improve on the current system, some elaborate and some quick.

My only question is: Can the community do anything to convince you? Or is it too late?

Can we vote somewhere or at least argue and discuss without the feeling that we are talking to a wall?

Otherwise I will just stop posting, endure 1.6 with a sigh and enjoy everything that is great about it (there is a lot to look forward to), while waiting for the major adjustments that are bound to happen once you see that your KPIs still don't meet your expectations.

If it is not to late, I will gladly provide detailed and constructive feedback, including many suggestions for improvement.

I love this game and will be happy to contribute to make it as good and successful as it can be.

Kind regards,
spoqster



EDIT: Clarification
I am big fan of the idea behind the Champion System as it was originally announced: A horizontal progression system. From a player's perspective I am also eager to see any kind of system go live soon, and I will enjoy the Champion System for the time being.
I am arguing this post not from a player's perspective, I am arguing from a game developer's perspective. I am worried that the current Champion System will not provide an enjoyable experience in the long run, and thus will be a threat to the game's success.

xarguideb17_ESO

Why don't you put those suggestions right here? ZOS says they read everything.

I haven't played much on PTS, but I think this game just needs this kind of advancement system, because for now, when you reach vr14, there kind of is no more character progression. I would like to progress infinitely.

Kas

There is no change to any game that won't be disliked by some.
Neither is a problemetic mechanic or balance issue something all too ciritical.
Imho it is just more efficient to fine tune afterwards.

Want progression more horizontal? Why not add other forms of progression next to the CS. Tbh there are already trial leaderboards (meh) and Alliance Ranks (could use some love to make progression more fun past rank 24). Why not add a fourth or fith pillar?

As part of "the community" can you please not speak in my name when you raise such concerns?
I do not agree. I do want the CS and I want it now (or at least when critical bugs are fixed - sound or even more so something like that gigantic fps bug the lightning effects update caused). It makes progression more fun for me because ARanks eventually become very tedious to improve upon.

Dimillian

Please not speak in my name too. I want something for the long term, and the champion system is the right thing to do. Someone with 50 days /played will be more powerful than someone with 5 days /played? This is perfectly right, 100% what I would except from a system like that.

The thing they need to do for the long term is adjust PVE somehow and create some new PVP campaigns (0-500 tier and 500+ Cp tier for example).

Soulac

Dimillian wrote: »

Please not speak in my name too. I want something for the long term, and the champion system is the right thing to do. Someone with 50 days /played will be more powerful than someone with 5 days /played? This is perfectly right, 100% what I would except from a system like that.

The thing they need to do for the long term is adjust PVE somehow and create some new PVP campaigns (0-500 tier and 500+ Cp tier for example).

You want dead campaigns, cause that's how you get dead campaigns.

Ofc there should be some difference between long time and new players, but the difference is too huge.
The diminishing return nearly doesn't exists and kinda feels linear.. That's game breaking.

ToRelax

I do not want to progress infinetely but I understand some players want that
What I can not understand is how anyone can think the champion passives should be as strong and the progression as linear as it is now on PTS. If it goes live like that it won't take to long and people will cry everywhere in these forums about unkillable op players... and even be right with it.

ginoboehm

Soulac wrote: »

Dimillian wrote: »

Please not speak in my name too. I want something for the long term, and the champion system is the right thing to do. Someone with 50 days /played will be more powerful than someone with 5 days /played? This is perfectly right, 100% what I would except from a system like that.

The thing they need to do for the long term is adjust PVE somehow and create some new PVP campaigns (0-500 tier and 500+ Cp tier for example).

You want dead campaigns, cause that's how you get dead campaigns.

Ofc there should be some difference between long time and new players, but the difference is too huge.
The diminishing return nearly doesn't exists and kinda feels linear.. That's game breaking.

Like we talked today if anybody has tried to play with their 70-90cp on pts PvP against players with 3600 cp would know that it feels like playing a level 30-40 char against a geared vr14 diminishing returns are too linear. Beside of that the time to kill is too low without ability shields and too high with ability shields imo . people will exploit cp gain while we play trials dungeons or PvP which gives almost no xp which will result in huge gaps and me and a lot of other players I talked to leaving the game.

Pirhana7_ESO

The Champion System and Class stamina mechanics cannot come soon enough. I wont play anymore until it happens. So please hurry and give us this patch

Yolokin_Swagonborn

I agree. I think they should split the update up into parts. All the bug fixes and skill changes should come first, that would allow us to playtest them as is on live and see what has actually happened to our characters before the champion system is released.

Then we could really see if we were buffed or nerfed and how the meta plays.

The champion system itself is going to obfuscate a lot of the changes.

The biggest issue for me so far is the inclusion of so many champion system "bonus effects" that set gear and skill theorycrafting is going to be irrelevant without the champion system.

I wrote a more detailed post about it Here.

There is a big writeup about the champion system in that thread so its a good place to express your concerns. It was posted to General forums and not to PTS forum so some of you might have missed it.

Robbmrp

I would rather have new content in place of the Champion System. IMO it will only benefit those people who will farm CP. As others have mentioned the power gap will grow and player imbalance will be worse than it is now. This will cause people to leave the game and look for other things to do. A lot of people do not want to do this same content over and over again just to gain CP. These are the same people that have claimed that Vet Levels are a tedious grind so the solution that ZOS presents is to force a lengthier grind with CP.

RinaldoGandolphi

I dont like the champion system at all. It's a system that rewards grinding and time played more so then vet ranks. Vet ranks were tolerable, but champ system will widen the gap.

Instead of beating a player because your more skilled, you will beat a player because you have more Champ points. It cheapens the experience and just shifts the game from a gear grind to a champ point bonus grind.

Champ points create enough of a gap that even more skilled better players will not be able to overcome the handicaps until everyone has the same amount if points, being 3600.

I'm sorry but just because you play more then someone else shouldn't give you a comparable advantage and edge. Does a casino give extra advantages and favor to the black jack player that plays every night to the guy that just walked in the door?

I know, people want to feel like their time spent in game matters, they feel they should be entitled to something that separates them from the casuals, but this isn't the right way to go about it. I'm not saying folks who play the most shouldn't have something to show for it, but giving considerable comparituve advantages and in essence stacking the deck in their favor with champ points is the wrong way to go about it.

ZOS really needs to cap CP at a set amount that can be earned o'er day, because their are many people who have no job, don't work, and rarely leave their houses and all they will do is sit around and grind points and account share to get as many as possible, the writing is on the wall.

Darlantan

So in other word... People who play less want the same advantage has player who invest more time in the game...

What do you think will happen to those player, the one that invest more time? You think they will be interested in staying in a game where a newbie (just a few hours) has the same power they have even after they invested 300 hours or 500 hours in the game?

ESO is not a FPS an lots of people, including me want to feel more powerful if they invest lots of time in a game.

*** why not give everyone 200k and everything like the PTS has right now. So everyone will be equal no mater what... So good right???

Nazon_Katts

I fear it's too late and been so a while already. AvA has moved out of focus a long time ago and with the current change in business model a steady and time consuming progression is pretty much needed to drive sales in the cash shop. A power gap in PvP is a necessary evil, otherwise nobody would consider paying for the convenience of catching up faster.

Kingdinguhling

Me personally I'm worried about Playability and balance first and foremost.

Then Endgame Content.

then Progression.

In my opinion I have no idea where we are at in this.

PTS Seems a lot smoother in a lot of ways but the bugs that do exist are pretty bad. As for Balance there is still 1-2 Classes that are still far superior to others ( I had never played DK and made a template VR14 and was rocking peoples worlds in 20 minutes in PVP). And for progression if they don't implement the proper grouping mechanics and separation for fresh 50s and Players with 500+ Champion points then there will be even more Balance issues than before. I wish they would have scrapped a lot more skills entirely and Gave certain classes a more definitive direction by Buffing Certain builds and combinations of skills to make them playable rather than bringing the Nerf bat to anything that was remotely fun about our characters. The PTS is nice because a lot of things are much smoother. But at this point it just feels like they cleaned up the game engine. No New Content really.... And I don't care what anyone says it still feels like the same failing game. It had so much potential.

Rasimir

Darlantan wrote: »

So in other word... People who play less want the same advantage has player who invest more time in the game...

What do you think will happen to those player, the one that invest more time?

There is a flaw in your argument. Look at it from the other side: Do you really want a game where somebody who can't play 12 hours a day doesn't stand a chance? What do you think will happen to those players? A lot of pleople playing this game have a job, and a family. Those have only a few hours üer week. Do you want these to become second class players?

Ideally, there shouldn't be any larger advantage deüending just on time played. Such a system is hard to develop, and we probably will always have advantages for those that invest more time at the beginning. After a while these disparities should vanish as people are able to catch up.

I really don't know if this is he case with the current campion system. It will take years to reach 3600 points. Will those with less time to play ever catch up, or will they leave before they have a chance to get there? Will they recongnize they stand no chance and leave BECAUSE of that? Only time will tell.

Xsorus

They can go live with it right now, a lot of the issues with the champion system will not happen till well down the road. Complaining they shouldn't go live with it because 3600 cp people will wreck 70 cp point people because 3600 cp will not happen for a very very long time.

Beleron

I opened a couple posts
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153645/vote-what-do-you-think-about-1-6-and-its-release#latest
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153644/vote-what-is-the-main-thing-the-champion-system-reinforces-and-gives-to-players#latest

post your vote. Make it simple. No big posts that appear like rants and such, just a simple mass of votes.

spoqster

Beleron wrote: »

I opened a couple posts
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153645/vote-what-do-you-think-about-1-6-and-its-release#latest
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153644/vote-what-is-the-main-thing-the-champion-system-reinforces-and-gives-to-players#latest

post your vote. Make it simple. No big posts that appear like rants and such, just a simple mass of votes.

Why didn't you create polls?

Ninnghizhidda

From what I have understood so far, the Champion system will be introduced for specific reasons. Firstly, provide "progression", and it is indeed some kind of progression, the enormity of its grindy nature is another story.

ZoS have clearly stated and claimed that the Champion system also serves a very important plan, what both them and the players (apparently) have been looking for: some kind of balance and "equalisation". If that could ever be achieved.

I would certainly support the idea, of course trying to make everyone 100% happy is probably an impossible task, but the Champion system was supposed to satisfy both new players and hardened veterans.

From what people are reporting, this is rather unlikely to happen. No one reasonable would ask for someone that just made it to VR ranks or earned the first Champion points to be "equal" to someone who has played for months and invested tons of effort. Not even a "fresh" VR14 character would be really equal to a VR14 with several months experience.

I would be perfectly happy to see the "hardened veterans" and those who invest a lot of time and effort and thus earn many more CPs being more powerful than those who do not. The question is by how much. I would be content and happy with a 5% or even a 10% "power advantage". However, the system as it stands, looks like far from it. It looks like some people could easily be 50% or, who knows, 70% (? just random numbers thrown in here) more powerful than equally VR ranked characters who earn a lot less CPs. Now, this... I think is way too much.

A "diminishing returns" system would be meaningful to ultimately grant that extra 5% or 10% edge, which actually could be quite important, coupled with skill and experience. It would be a fair reward to make someone happy and proud. Being twice as powerful (random estimate again, it could actually be a lot more) is just too much and creates quite a gap instead of closing gaps and "equalising".

They better have some second thoughts about the system and make some meaningful adjustments now they can. Before another major hell breaks loose when it all goes live. Just my thoughts.

Darlantan

Rasimir wrote: »

Darlantan wrote: »

So in other word... People who play less want the same advantage has player who invest more time in the game...

What do you think will happen to those player, the one that invest more time?

There is a flaw in your argument. Look at it from the other side: Do you really want a game where somebody who can't play 12 hours a day doesn't stand a chance? What do you think will happen to those players? A lot of pleople playing this game have a job, and a family. Those have only a few hours üer week. Do you want these to become second class players?

Ideally, there shouldn't be any larger advantage deüending just on time played. Such a system is hard to develop, and we probably will always have advantages for those that invest more time at the beginning. After a while these disparities should vanish as people are able to catch up.

I really don't know if this is he case with the current campion system. It will take years to reach 3600 points. Will those with less time to play ever catch up, or will they leave before they have a chance to get there? Will they recongnize they stand no chance and leave BECAUSE of that? Only time will tell.

Sorry, i work, do not play 12h a day or even everyday but when i play and have more time, i do not want the game to limit me in what i can get by day.

Kragorn

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

A "diminishing returns" system would be meaningful to ultimately grant that extra 5% or 10% edge

DR already features heavily in the CP system.

Not directed at you @Ninnghizhidda ...

... the screaming in places around here about 3600 CPs is ridiculous, ZOS enabled PTS players to get there in order to TEST it, OBSERVE what its effects are so they can ADJUST it: they SAID this was the reason.

Fact is, as many are quick to point out, reaching such levels of utter imbalance is many, many months away, ZOS clearly have more than enough time to 'up' the DR to reduce the imbalance.

But yeah, this is a game forum and some PVPers can't see beyond the end of their noses so they go into fits of myopic hysteria.

Ryuho

woodsro wrote: »

I dont like the champion system at all. It's a system that rewards grinding and time played more so then vet ranks. Vet ranks were tolerable, but champ system will widen the gap.

Instead of beating a player because your more skilled, you will beat a player because you have more Champ points. It cheapens the experience and just shifts the game from a gear grind to a champ point bonus grind.

Champ points create enough of a gap that even more skilled better players will not be able to overcome the handicaps until everyone has the same amount if points, being 3600.

I'm sorry but just because you play more then someone else shouldn't give you a comparable advantage and edge. Does a casino give extra advantages and favor to the black jack player that plays every night to the guy that just walked in the door?

I know, people want to feel like their time spent in game matters, they feel they should be entitled to something that separates them from the casuals, but this isn't the right way to go about it. I'm not saying folks who play the most shouldn't have something to show for it, but giving considerable comparituve advantages and in essence stacking the deck in their favor with champ points is the wrong way to go about it.

ZOS really needs to cap CP at a set amount that can be earned o'er day, because their are many people who have no job, don't work, and rarely leave their houses and all they will do is sit around and grind points and account share to get as many as possible, the writing is on the wall.

Totally agree.. Especially with this: ''It's a system that rewards grinding and time played more so then vet ranks."

From pure pvp view, i think for ~ 2 - 3 months, with new builds etc., pvp will be realy cool, but later, when grinders get 200 - 300 CP more than me, a casual pvper (i log in only to play pvp for 2 - 3 hrs daily and only cyro keeps my sub up) CP balance will be gone..

ToRelax

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

From what I have understood so far, the Champion system will be introduced for specific reasons. Firstly, provide "progression", and it is indeed some kind of progression, the enormity of its grindy nature is another story.

ZoS have clearly stated and claimed that the Champion system also serves a very important plan, what both them and the players (apparently) have been looking for: some kind of balance and "equalisation". If that could ever be achieved.

I would certainly support the idea, of course trying to make everyone 100% happy is probably an impossible task, but the Champion system was supposed to satisfy both new players and hardened veterans.

From what people are reporting, this is rather unlikely to happen. No one reasonable would ask for someone that just made it to VR ranks or earned the first Champion points to be "equal" to someone who has played for months and invested tons of effort. Not even a "fresh" VR14 character would be really equal to a VR14 with several months experience.

I would be perfectly happy to see the "hardened veterans" and those who invest a lot of time and effort and thus earn many more CPs being more powerful than those who do not. The question is by how much. I would be content and happy with a 5% or even a 10% "power advantage". However, the system as it stands, looks like far from it. It looks like some people could easily be 50% or, who knows, 70% (? just random numbers thrown in here) more powerful than equally VR ranked characters who earn a lot less CPs. Now, this... I think is way too much.

A "diminishing returns" system would be meaningful to ultimately grant that extra 5% or 10% edge, which actually could be quite important, coupled with skill and experience. It would be a fair reward to make someone happy and proud. Being twice as powerful (random estimate again, it could actually be a lot more) is just too much and creates quite a gap instead of closing gaps and "equalising".

They better have some second thoughts about the system and make some meaningful adjustments now they can. Before another major hell breaks loose when it all goes live. Just my thoughts.

Very good point, I read all the time 25% is okay as it isn't even achievable in a reasonable timeframe and the first few hundred points matter the most.

So for all those who think like that:
1. 25% more power would be doing 25% more damage for example. 25% more damage + defense + resources + regen + a lot more perks is way more than a 25% power increase (the numbers may be incorrect, of course not everything is 25%).
2. The first few hundred points are indeed those who matter the most but the first few hundred points alone are not what matters the most overall. You can follow? Sure, a point you spent earlier gives a greater advantage, but the progression is so linear that it won't matter much in the end, the gap between 600 and 1000 points is still enormous.

Kragorn

spoqster wrote: »

ZOS, is there anything we can do to convince you not to go live with this Champion System?

Given the curt dismissal of the several well-argued posts about the concerns many have for Sorceror clearly ZOS have made their mind up and no amount of fact-based arguing will move them: note that the provision of facts and game-derived numbers is all one way, ZOS have never countered any fact-based arguments with counter-facts, simply vague comments and unsubstantiated assertions .. that is when they bother to respond at all.

Personally I don't know the truth about Sorcs, CP OPness or whatever, I see lots of players providing well-reasoned arguments on the one hand and nothing substantial from ZOS on the other: it's hard to think the players aren't right when ZOS don't seem to be able to provide support for their assertions.


Blizzard and WOW are widely derided here and elsewhere, yet I rarely see more in-depth DISCUSSION between game developers and players as I do in WOW's forums, especially the PTS one; I don't recall anything remotely worthy of the term 'discussion' round here since beta, and it was only very sporadic then.

pppontus

If you take player skill out of the equation and replace it with only how much time /played you have when it comes to doing endgame PVE and/or PVP, then that's not a game I'm going to play. Seriously, people were complaining about vet ranks grind.. guess what, this is 3600 times worse. I'm working full time and managed to level 5 chars to VR14, but now I know I can never keep up with the grinders and nolifers.. so in a few months no more PVE or PVP for me. Does ZOS think I'm going to stay subbed to do crafting writs or dailies, or what?

pmn100b16_ESO

I had concerns with the CP system along time ago in regards to pvp. Currently if you are a v14 and you fight another v14, you know that whoever wins has the better skill/build (class balance aside), you know its an even playing field. With CP points, the imbalances mean there are no longer going to be even fights. Someone grinding quests/mobs all day to get CP would have a distinct advantage over someone that hops online of an evening to play a couple hours of pvp. After just a couple of months of this, you're going to find 'good' players in pvp simply based on how many cps they got. The casual way you can currently play in cyrodiil (i.e. as your time permits) will be over.

When I bought this up some time ago in a thread, lots of people just said 'someone that's played for a year should be better than someone who's just started'. Seems some people are really invested in the idea of steamrolling a bunch of new players and passing it off as skill. My view is a new player to pvp should be on an even footing, otherwise whats the point of playing. The new guy isn't going to play because he'll be getting trashed by the cp grinding vet without a hope of catching up, and personally, as a possible cp grinding vet, I wouldn't want to be trashing a bunch of new players everyday.

This system is going to cause too many imbalances, and cryodiil is about to become an even more frustrating experience than it already is. Those with the view that old players should be godly OP compared to new players need to take more consideration into the future health of the game, not the short term gain of some epeen stroking cheesy mass cyrodiil killing spree.

pppontus

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

I had concerns with the CP system along time ago in regards to pvp. Currently if you are a v14 and you fight another v14, you know that whoever wins has the better skill/build (class balance aside), you know its an even playing field. With CP points, the imbalances mean there are no longer going to be even fights. Someone grinding quests/mobs all day to get CP would have a distinct advantage over someone that hops online of an evening to play a couple hours of pvp. After just a couple of months of this, you're going to find 'good' players in pvp simply based on how many cps they got. The casual way you can currently play in cyrodiil (i.e. as your time permits) will be over.

When I bought this up some time ago in a thread, lots of people just said 'someone that's played for a year should be better than someone who's just started'. Seems some people are really invested in the idea of steamrolling a bunch of new players and passing it off as skill. My view is a new player to pvp should be on an even footing, otherwise whats the point of playing. The new guy isn't going to play because he'll be getting trashed by the cp grinding vet without a hope of catching up, and personally, as a possible cp grinding vet, I wouldn't want to be trashing a bunch of new players everyday.

This system is going to cause too many imbalances, and cryodiil is about to become an even more frustrating experience than it already is. Those with the view that old players should be godly OP compared to new players need to take more consideration into the future health of the game, not the short term gain of some epeen stroking cheesy mass cyrodiil killing spree.

The main problem is going to be, as you say, that the new players that the "elites" are playing against.. they're not going to stick around for very long. I imagine many of us tried out pvp when we were somewhere lvl 30-50, and sure we got stomped by the (then v10s, v12s or now) v14s but that was alright because we knew that if we put in a decent effort (20-30 hours total maybe) we could be on even grounds.. so we did that. But when a new player comes in with VR1 (0 CP) and people have VR14 (900 CP) .. we're talking 900 hours (at 1hr/pt, with enlightenment = 900 days even), do you think that player is ever coming back?

TL;DR. There aren't going to be any newbies to stomp because they will not be playing this game, at least not at a competetive level (ever).

pmn100b16_ESO

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

I fear it's too late and been so a while already. AvA has moved out of focus a long time ago and with the current change in business model a steady and time consuming progression is pretty much needed to drive sales in the cash shop. A power gap in PvP is a necessary evil, otherwise nobody would consider paying for the convenience of catching up faster.

Yep, the game plan has changed. As a sub game, they needed to create new content to keep people playing and subscribing. As a b2p game, they need people to keep logging in each day, simple as that. More people logging in equates to more cash shop sales. Throw in the mandatory grinding system (champ points) and you have the perfect platform for xp potion sales and all other 'convenience' items. This isn't a game I'm going to be participating in. I paid for a subscription game with great new regular content, not a grind fest with some more grind content maybe once a year.

BugCollector

I dislike the Champion System with all my heart. This is not the way to go to convince players to keep playing. More content (such as the Justice System) and more daily quests/events is the way to go.

McDoogs

They can't scrap their desperate attempt to improve the game ahead of B2P/console release.

Lied

I can't think of a single MMO where power creep positively influenced PvP. No, you can't make everyone happy, but the pro-normalization/bolstering side always wins against the linear progression side eventually. It's like watching the same movie plot over and over.

If I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some posts from other game forums that always go a little something like this:
Player-A: "Pssst... nobody is going to PvP and get instagibbed for x-period of time while they wait for their character's math to allow them to compete."
Player-B: "Nu-uh, I did, they can suck it up, how much sense would it make for them to be as powerful as my veteran world-eater on day-1?" (usually but not exclusively from a character that was capped before such a discrepancy existed)
<fast forward 1 year after PvP population declined at a rate faster than PvE population>
Developer: Next super exciting patch! Introducing improvements to PvP, such as:
Added or improved bolstering/underdog mechanic!
Made competitive PvP gear easier to acquire!
New PvP gear from crafting/PvE!
New restrictions on premade queues!
Noob friendly bracket/ELO formula! (if you actually have enough players to split up)

Over and over. Because, in practice, all Player-B's in MMOs need all the Player-A's to participate in PvP in order for PvP to thrive. The only way ultra-competitive PvP can thrive over time is if those players are playing exclusively against other players just like themselves and not against severely handicapped players. Ironically, in this ideal situation that precious advantage some people love is completely negated anyway because their opponents have the same setup they do.

It's just a damn shame that this never ending learning cycle always has to have a period where the PvP population drops before triage is done.