Bug: Champion System too powerful

spoqster

I just played around with the 3600 points and boy was I surprised to see that the passives max out at 25%. I would have expected them to max out at 5% or perhaps 10%, but 25?

ZOS are you serious? Imagine I am a new player and reach level 50, just to find out that players who have been playing the game for a year do 25% more damage than me (replace damage with whatever you want min/max, and year with however long it takes if you focus on one passive in each constellation). They're not better than me, just played longer, and they are a quarter more powerful than me. How motivated would I be to carry on?

Come on guys, the first of April is still over a month away. ;-)

kkampaseb17_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

I just played around with the 3600 points and boy was I surprised to see that the passives max out at 25%. I would have expected them to max out at 5% or perhaps 10%, but 25?

ZOS are you serious? Imagine I am a new player and reach level 50, just to find out that players who have been playing the game for a year do 25% more damage than me (replace damage with whatever you want min/max, and year with however long it takes if you focus on one passive in each constellation). They're not better than me, just played longer, and they are a quarter more powerful than me. How motivated would I be to carry on?

Come on guys, the first of April is still over a month away. ;-)

Diminishing returns per skill point usage. You can get the first 10% to all rather easily.

tomiffseb17_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

How motivated would I be to carry on?

So you would be more motivated if after one year you would only gain 5% increase in dmg? its a point of view.

Tankqull

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I just played around with the 3600 points and boy was I surprised to see that the passives max out at 25%. I would have expected them to max out at 5% or perhaps 10%, but 25?

ZOS are you serious? Imagine I am a new player and reach level 50, just to find out that players who have been playing the game for a year do 25% more damage than me (replace damage with whatever you want min/max, and year with however long it takes if you focus on one passive in each constellation). They're not better than me, just played longer, and they are a quarter more powerful than me. How motivated would I be to carry on?

Come on guys, the first of April is still over a month away. ;-)

Diminishing returns per skill point usage. You can get the first 10% to all rather easily.

the dimnishing returns within the cp system are a bad joke and totally unbalanced.

Kragorn

spoqster wrote: »

How motivated would I be to carry on?

You need to ask yourself if ZOS care if you do?

Point is this, the subscription payment model focuses on RETENTION of players, meaning the developer has to incessantly provide more content to keep those who say "I have nothing to do" busy and that only works if the 'dailies' (and other infinitely repeatable content) is engaging and motivating even if highly boring at times.

The B2P (aks. 'freemium') model focuses on CHURN, more money is made by attracting new players for a period of time and recognising they'll stop playing at some point, after which they'll cost too much in new development costs to keep ('retain') them; the hope is you milked enough $$$ out of them while they were around.

Like it or not, this is how MMO developers (or to be precise the bean counters) operate, it's simply which model they see making them the most cash and ZOS have chosen 'churn' over 'retention'; indicated not least in the pretty lacklustre 'perks' subscribers will get after March 17th.

Rune_Relic

@spoqster ...you are not the only the one with concerns.

Lets take all the other passives and actives...

320 skyshards available.
436 skyshards required.

Crafting x6
8x3 passives
24 skyshards [144]

Weapon skills x6
5x2 passives
5x2 actives
20 skyshards [120]

Guild x3
5x2 passives
4x2 actives
1x2 ulitmates
20 skyshards [60]

Armour skills x3
5x2 passives
1x2 actives
12 skyshards [36]

Class skills x1 of 4
5x2 passives
5x2 actives
1x2 ulitmates
22 skyshards [22]

Alliance x2
3x1 passives
2x2 actives
1x2 ulitmates
9 skyshards [18]

Beast magic x1 of 2
5x2 passives
2x2 actives
1x2 ulitmates
16 skyshards [16]

Soul magic x1
3x2 passives
1x2 actives
1x2 ulitmates
10 skyshards [10]

Racial x1 of 9
5x2 passives
10 skyshards [10]

Note how you cannot obtain anywhere near the required skyshards to obtain all of the current skills and passives.
Not unless you confine yourself to just one craft skill.
Either way you HAVE to sacrifice something and that sacrifice os what defines you character.
Like class is 1of4, race is 1of9 and monster is 1of2.

On top of that the CS accounts for 25% of each pie....that makes all of the existing builds 25% less effective. Hence everyone says they feel powerless without CS points added. To top that off everyone gets 100% of the CP in the end. So the fact that everyone has the same 3600 points invested in the same stuff nullifies each other. In the end then all you get is everyones current builds that have been watered down 25% (from a uniqueness point of view).

But it also makes those without any CP 25% less powerful than the CS gods. So not only do we get V14 being 50% more powerful in every way than a level 50. They can also become 25% more powerful with CS. Any newcomers are just goign to be completely demoralised and crushed attempting to get anywhere near the power of old veteran players.

Oh and battle leveling in cyrodiil becomes pointless. Not because you are raised to level 50 to put you on an even playing field...but because the CS will let the other Newb have 3600 CP and they will be 25% more powerful than you in every way.

eg.
100% damage 1.5 > 75% + 25% armour > 75% damage 1.6 without CP
75% armour 1.5 > 50% + 25% armour > 50% armour 1.6 without CP

[edit: added example.]

NerZhulen89

That is axyctly the point of progression. Being stronger than others.

If you start playing wow, you will be weaker than all players who farmed their gear already. And you will do much much less damage than -25%.

Soulac

"diminishing return"
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153244/1-6-build-difference-based-on-invested-champion-points#latest

trimsic_ESO

25% is the right number for a max'd out champion passive ability. It gives a good progression perspective.

I know many people are afraid about the imbalance this would mean between new players and those who have 3600 CPs. But this will not happen before years, and I expect many adjustments to the CP curve in the next patches. This has to be monitored of course, but it's too early to state that it will be imbalanced at this stage.

McDoogs

NerZhulen89 wrote: »

That is axyctly the point of progression. Being stronger than others.

If you start playing wow, you will be weaker than all players who farmed their gear already. And you will do much much less damage than -25%.

There is a huge gap in ESO already though, and it's even bigger now. Think of a VR14 with 70 CP compared to fresh VR1 with zero CP...that dude is going to get steamrolled in PvP. That's not fun for the new player, and he'll likely never catch up to the character powers of that other player even with diminishing returns because of how steep and time consuming the vet grind plus the CP grind is.

kkampaseb17_ESO

McDoogs wrote: »

NerZhulen89 wrote: »

That is axyctly the point of progression. Being stronger than others.

If you start playing wow, you will be weaker than all players who farmed their gear already. And you will do much much less damage than -25%.

There is a huge gap in ESO already though, and it's even bigger now. Think of a VR14 with 70 CP compared to fresh VR1 with zero CP...that dude is going to get steamrolled in PvP. That's not fun for the new player, and he'll likely never catch up to the character powers of that other player even with diminishing returns because of how steep and time consuming the vet grind plus the CP grind is.

Then I would suggest him to grit his teeth and get through with it, like some of us did with old games like EQ, where you had to level for months to even consider the actual item progression. Otherwise, well there are other options for your free time too. How about EVE online? That's a short progression too if I remember correct no?

Lied

NerZhulen89 wrote: »

If you start playing wow, you will be weaker than all players who farmed their gear already. And you will do much much less damage than -25%.

Seasonal gear is coming to ESO as well you know.

The system should work with DR, the DR is just not steep enough.

Roechacca

Not concerned about new players that have to level up . Everyone had the same option to start the game at the same time . Come in late , expect to play catchup .

LtCrunch

Kind of the point of progression, isn't it? To get stronger?

McDoogs

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

NerZhulen89 wrote: »

That is axyctly the point of progression. Being stronger than others.

If you start playing wow, you will be weaker than all players who farmed their gear already. And you will do much much less damage than -25%.

There is a huge gap in ESO already though, and it's even bigger now. Think of a VR14 with 70 CP compared to fresh VR1 with zero CP...that dude is going to get steamrolled in PvP. That's not fun for the new player, and he'll likely never catch up to the character powers of that other player even with diminishing returns because of how steep and time consuming the vet grind plus the CP grind is.

Then I would suggest him to grit his teeth and get through with it, like some of us did with old games like EQ, where you had to level for months to even consider the actual item progression. Otherwise, well there are other options for your free time too. How about EVE online? That's a short progression too if I remember correct no?

Big differences. There were far less MMO options when EQ was huge (released in 1999), and EvE is a true sandbox MMO and more or less unique in the gaming industry. ESO is not much different from any of the other themepark b2p/f2p games available now.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. I will have one of the more advanced characters/accounts, I'm just wondering what ZOS is thinking will keep new players around and participating in PvP. I suspect that in a few months the campaigns will be even deader than they are now, and pretty much only consist of the same VR14s/300+ CP toons beating each other off.

Soulac

Brandalf wrote: »

Kind of the point of progression, isn't it? To get stronger?

Ofc, but in this way?

Rune_Relic

roechacca wrote: »

Not concerned about new players that have to level up . Everyone had the same option to start the game at the same time . Come in late , expect to play catchup .

Which is fine if your peers are on an even playing field but they are not.
I am new level 10 with 0CP... PVE content is hard. PVP content is impossible.
I am vet level 10 with 3600 CP... PVE content is a faceroll. PVP content I am a god compared to all other level 10s.

I get battle levelled to 50 with all my peers..I am still a god with 3600 CP destroying all before me.

Not only that if I get Vet PVP there is not only the V1~V14 gap....I also now have to contend with the CS0~CS3600 gap on top. how this was never battle levelled to Vet 14 I will never know.

The only people playing PVP are those that re playing now...until they all eventually leave. Then if there is some new players that might enter Cyrodiil thinking they now have a chance of killing stuff.

GaldorP

ESO's endgame is not tiered. Everyone is in the same pool for endgame PvE (trials and vet DSA, City of Ash), so if some characters are 25% stronger than others that makes quite a difference and can lead to more elitism. Also, all the endgame content currently in the game is balanced for 0 CP characters and might become far too easy for characters with a few hundred CP. Contrary to what some people say, I have only noticed a tiny "nerf" when playing my main with 0 CP on the PTS, and I actually kill things faster than on live with 70 CP.

ESO's PvP - due to its nature (medium to large scale AVA PvP) - cannot have too many tiers, there are only 2 at the moment: non veteran and veteran Cyrodiil. VR 1 characters with 0 CP will potentially meet VR 14 characters with 3'600 CP here. Not a catastrophe, but don't expect any balance in 1v1 fights/duelling here (that's not what ESO's AvA PvP is about anyway).

It will very likely take over half a year to get 3'600 CP for people who account share (against TOS) and play the same character 24/7 (unless there's some fantastic grind spot or way to gain XP that I've missed). So the whole system may get completely re-vamped (as almost any system in this game has been) long before someone reaches the max number of points (and to be honest, there's like 1'000 points for each build that simply are not worth the grind because they contribute very little to that specific build).

So personally, I don't think the Champion Point system will ruin the game.

The main balancing problem, for me, in this game are loopholes (even more so now that there are no soft-caps anymore): combos that give you infinite resources, that let you block hundreds of attacks without ever running out of stamina, 100% or more damage mitigation, stacking of temporary effects that let you hit for ridiculous damage with a single attack, permanent cc immunity, permanent damage shields, unlimited stacking of healing effects. Also, skills without re-use timers are problematic and will lead to one-button-mashing. Ultimates now finally have timers (the new ultimate gain simply counts your time in combat + tiny bonuses from some sets or passives). Skills should have them too. That would make balancing a lot easier and both PvE and PvP more interesting (I hate WoW, by the way; most MMOGs have re-use timers on all skills; ESO has them too, 1.3 seconds for most skills I think, they are just not visible and too short).

Sometimes, when people complain about something (soft-caps) it's better to ignore them for their own good. I don't like the soft-caps either, but they were important for ESO's balancing and the removal of soft-caps has lead to many balancing issues in Update 6.

spoqster

Brandalf wrote: »

Kind of the point of progression, isn't it? To get stronger?

Counter Strike worked fine without progression. And Fifa Ultimate Team uses an inverted hockey stick - you get competitive quickly and then it gets slooow. Both games perform exceptionally well. CS was maybe the most successful multiplayer game of its time and Fifa is generating heaps of money.

I think what ESO (and other MMOs for that matter) tries to do is to mix two different games into one. In a single player game vertical progression is half the game, but in a multiplayer game you want to have a horizontal progression system. Mixing the two ist bound to make the game less popular than it could be.

Counter Strike was so great because you had a brilliant single player game (Half-Life) and then a progression-less multiplayer game on top of it.

ESO could do the same thing by nerfing the CS percentage modifiers to 5% max, and turning the CS passives purely into convenience passives, such as mount stamina (already there), harvesting speed (already there), bank space, bag space, bartering skill, guild store slots, and so on. Heck, they could have us earning interface improvements for all I care. The interface is so bad people are spending 100+ hours on writing addons to fix it.

Nefrast

I am a casual with a maximum number of different characters who will never reach a very high number of champion points. What this means for me is that I probably completely refrain from doing PvP eventually¹. The very substantial existing difference in power from equipment will be dramatically increased by a very large additional margin through these champion system bonuses. Well, everything has it's time. I may be wrong but I fully expect that this new champion system will decrease my fun time with ESO.

¹) I guess they won't offer any low-cp pvp campaigns.

C0pp3rhead

m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO's endgame is not tiered. Everyone is in the same pool for endgame PvE (trials and vet DSA, City of Ash), so if some characters are 25% stronger than others that makes quite a difference ... all the endgame content currently in the game is balanced for 0 CP characters and might become far too easy for characters with a few hundred CP.

The game got rebalanced to account for CP. Sure, the overworld trash mobs are going to be easy to kill. Haven't they always?
Have you tried doing any dungeons or trials though? Those are ALOT harder on the PTS.

I'm in the same boat as @roechacca. I'm not too concerned about new players. I've played and paid for almost a year's worth of time, I'm going to be almost a year's worth ahead. I don't play MMO's because they're easy. It's like @NerZhulen89 said, if you are just now a new player in WoW, or any other MMO for that matter, you have to play catch-up. Love it or hate it, WoW is a successful MMO. Besides, with the help of Google and Youtube, a competent and dedicated player can reach veteran levels and 70cp within 2 months.

madangrypally

I foresee mechanics added to allow players to catch up faster.

Enightenment can give bigger bonuses to low CP players for example and would be a easy tweak.

Season Gear will also be introduced sooner then later. It has been said that the current season is hard to acquire but prior seasons will become progressively easier to obtain. Depending on the Power Gap between these seasons it may be possible for this is reduce the overall power-gap of characters.

Campaigns themselves could end up altered due to CP totals. Things like the battle level raise could be increased to a point that it boost new players enough to still be competitive.

The game is also not set up for 3600 champion points at this time and it was even noted in the patch notes.

McDoogs

madangrypally wrote: »

I foresee mechanics added to allow players to catch up faster.

.

Yep, and they will be available in the crown store.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

They will just sell leved
characters with x amount of cp once it gets out of hand. Nothing new here its just one more thing to sell new players who can't catch up. Other games sell leveled toons. What's the surprise.

elblobbob14_ESO

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

How about EVE online? That's a short progression too if I remember correct no?

Just a quick sprint.