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Critique of current Sorcerer skill trees.
Jar_Ek
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Overview
The changes to 1.6.3, and in particular the uncapping of stats, have pushed characters in the direction of either “pure” magicka or “pure” stamina builds for their damage output (health is still needed for survivability). This means that class skills must now be evaluated for their usefulness to stamina and magicka builds separately. This means that all class skills should be looked at again in relation to their support for both these build styles (as well as an overall consideration as to what role they best support). This is an attempt to do just that – and to offer suggestions as to what could be changed to better support the various playstyles without (hopefully) overpowering or diminishing any playstyle at the expense of another.
This has been done for sorcerers simply because I have most knowledge (and time invested) in that class and I would not feel confident enough to do such a critique for any other class. However this is not intended as a whine thread, but as a critique in order to try to get an understanding of where the sorcerer stands with regards to the class skills on the PTS.
Naturally this is just one view of the class and it is not expected that everyone is in agreement with this assessment – in fact the point is to stimulate an intelligent discussion of the skill trees as a whole, from all perspectives. The intention is not for Sorcerers to get buffed compared to all the other classes - simply to point out the issues and weaknesses (and the strengths) of the current Sorcerer skill trees.
Notes:
The changes that have been wrought by the removal of stat caps have a significant impact on class skills and how the classes are likely to work. This is particularly true of skill line passives. One general suggestion is that skill line passives could be modified such that they can be tied to stamina or magicka builds (i.e. a passive morph if you will). This means that each skill line passive has two variants, one of which must be selected – allowing for magicka, stamina and hybrid builds to be created. Obviously such a fundamental change would not be feasible for the next patch – but maybe it is something that could be considered for the future.
Ultimate or other abilities that scale of the higher of maximum stamina or maximum magicka, should scale off (maximum stamina + maximum magicka) to support hybrids. There is no good reason for a pure build’s ultimate to be better than that of a hybrid build.
Assessment Notes:
Any ability that has its damage based on magicka has probably been rated as one step lower for a stamina build than for a magicka build due to the relative effectiveness that ability will have.
The structure of this is by ability and then morph. The suggestion are thus cumulative (i.e. apply the base changes and then the morph changes).
Storm Calling
Dark Magic
Daedric Summoning
Rather than critique the summoning line, I will simply provide a link to a few thoughts: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest
There have been a few recent changes that have buffed pets further - including a significant heal from the desummoning/death of a pet. However the problem with this is that this is the only currently reliable heal (even if it does require a delayed summons - so it is not exactly an instant heal) and hence potentially forces all sorcerers down this route for survival (not necessarily true in trials, but in PvE and PvP probably true).
Anyway, I hope this helps the debate.
Edited by Jar_Ek on 24 February 2015 20:54 The changes to 1.6.3, and in particular the uncapping of stats, have pushed characters in the direction of either “pure” magicka or “pure” stamina builds for their damage output (health is still needed for survivability). This means that class skills must now be evaluated for their usefulness to stamina and magicka builds separately. This means that all class skills should be looked at again in relation to their support for both these build styles (as well as an overall consideration as to what role they best support). This is an attempt to do just that – and to offer suggestions as to what could be changed to better support the various playstyles without (hopefully) overpowering or diminishing any playstyle at the expense of another.
This has been done for sorcerers simply because I have most knowledge (and time invested) in that class and I would not feel confident enough to do such a critique for any other class. However this is not intended as a whine thread, but as a critique in order to try to get an understanding of where the sorcerer stands with regards to the class skills on the PTS.
Naturally this is just one view of the class and it is not expected that everyone is in agreement with this assessment – in fact the point is to stimulate an intelligent discussion of the skill trees as a whole, from all perspectives. The intention is not for Sorcerers to get buffed compared to all the other classes - simply to point out the issues and weaknesses (and the strengths) of the current Sorcerer skill trees.
Notes:
The changes that have been wrought by the removal of stat caps have a significant impact on class skills and how the classes are likely to work. This is particularly true of skill line passives. One general suggestion is that skill line passives could be modified such that they can be tied to stamina or magicka builds (i.e. a passive morph if you will). This means that each skill line passive has two variants, one of which must be selected – allowing for magicka, stamina and hybrid builds to be created. Obviously such a fundamental change would not be feasible for the next patch – but maybe it is something that could be considered for the future.
Ultimate or other abilities that scale of the higher of maximum stamina or maximum magicka, should scale off (maximum stamina + maximum magicka) to support hybrids. There is no good reason for a pure build’s ultimate to be better than that of a hybrid build.
Assessment Notes:
Any ability that has its damage based on magicka has probably been rated as one step lower for a stamina build than for a magicka build due to the relative effectiveness that ability will have.
The structure of this is by ability and then morph. The suggestion are thus cumulative (i.e. apply the base changes and then the morph changes).
Storm Calling
By the name this looks like it should be a powerhouse of lightning based damage abilities...
Mages Fury: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Ranged execute and as such is useful primarily for magicka sorcerers. However due to the base damage level it is significantly less useful outside of execution phases.
Suggestion: Tweak the damage numbers such that it provides a bit more pre-execution (whilst keeping the same overall damage for execute phase) would make it more generally useful – and it would fill the much needed instant filler role. Also upping the execute range to 25% would help.
Endless Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Worthless (stamina)
Killing an opponent with this restores magicka - which means this morph does nothing unless you kill your opponent. Thus it provides no real benefit in the PVE fights you are likely to use it (i.e. single target boss execute phase) and the fact that you must perform the killing blow with this spell means that you can only be sure to get the magicka return in solo play. It is not much more useful in PvP (although it is more useful) for much the same reason (no guarantee that you will get any magicka back).
Suggestion: Rather than regaining magicka, each subsequent cast of this spell reduces the magicka cost of the next cast of this spell within 2 seconds by 10% - to a maximum of 50% reduction. This would enable it to be more endless and useful for sustain, esp. in the execution phase.
Wrath Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The target explosion (the execute element) causes additional damage to nearby enemies. This morph is only useful in group mob situations where the explosion can cause some additional splash damage on the death of an enemy. However this has little PVE benefit as the spell is used during boss execution and there are better AoE spells for AoE phases and fights. It is somewhat more useful in PvP if you can execute a player within a zerg ball.
Suggestion: This now applies a minor healing debuff to all targets hit by it (defile) and activates the explosion at 35% (i.e. +10%). This would provide a group effect and also allow the execution phase to start earlier.
Lightning Form Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This is a potentially useful ability for all sorcerers, but especially for melee sorcerers (normally stamina) as it provides the maximum spell resist and armour buffs for a decent time period and creates a mobile AoE DoT centred on the caster. However the cost of this ability is high (which hits stamina sorcerers hard and hence reduces the ability’s usability down to Okay).
Suggestion: Reduce spell cost by 15%. This pulls the cost more in-line with other classes costs.
Thunderous Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Good (stamina)
The increased duration is useful for stamina sorcerers (inc. Tanks) as it reduces required resources over time (and hence the relative cost).
Boundless Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The speed buff can be very useful but is too short (6s) to provide a significant benefit for the cost.
Suggestion: A longer duration (10s) on the speed buff would be nice, 6s is really not very long.
Lightning Splash Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
A ground AoE (so not blockable) DoT that ticks for slightly longer than on live. It should be useful for magicka sorcerers now due to the fact it cannot be blocked (magicka scaled means it won’t be so good for stamina builds). However the radius is a bit too small to be really useful – it is better than it was, but only really works in conjunction with a CC – or multiple CC casts with the new durations.
Suggestion: Increase radius by 2m. This would make it more usable generally.
Flood Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The base ability is somewhat small and so the increased radius is quite useful in that it hits more targets. Now that the base ability is better, so is the morph.
Suggestion: Increase radius based on the modified base spell radius
Liquid Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This morph has the duration increased, however the rating remains unchanged due to the radius / static nature of the effect. Although the increased duration makes this more palatable for a stamina build (cost is essentially reduced), the damage is still weak for a stamina build.
Suggestion: No change (base radius has been increased)
Surge: Rating: Worthless to Poor (magicka), Poor (Stamina)
Surge now provides weapon damage buff (which is of no benefit to a magicka sorcerer) and healing on critical as the basic ability - which is a good idea (esp. for stamina sorcerers), but the healing component has a 0.25 second CD which has the effect of making the healing far too random to be effective (it will proc on any critical and hence can triggered by a minor DoT critical). In addition this means there is a detrimental synergy with Lightning Form, Lightning Splash and indeed any bleeds (from DW, Bow or 2H lines) as their DoTs can trigger the healing, which are likely to be lower than any direct active ability damage.
Suggestion: The best solution would be to remove the CD, and put a cap on the number of simultaneous heals (or those within a very short timescale such as 0.05 seconds) that can be received (my suggestion would be 6 max). Also set the healing as 50% of critical hit damage or damage (against block / shields).
This should restore it to being a reasonably reliable heal without making it overpowered..
Critical morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (magicka), Poor (Stamina)
The increase in healing is not significant enough to be worthwhile whilst the CD remains in place (it might be okay if the CD is removed). It is currently 10% as a basic increase for the morph, going to 20% at rank IV (which is not as huge an increase as it seems, as it is a percentage of the damage that you did in your attack – which could be a DoT tick).
Suggestion: Remove the additional healing (should not be required if the CD has been removed). Add a minor maim or mangle debuff to enemies hit by the effect (including blocking, but not shielding). This would make it a useful melee tool.
Power morph: Rating: Poor to Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Provides spell power buff as well. However this is currently not as good as the mage guild skill line "Structured entropy", which also benefits from better passives (for its use). In addition for the heals to be effective, this skill must be carefully built and worked around.
Suggestion: Remove the weapon damage buff and add a minor force buff or minor berserk buff.
This would make it a better DPS substitute for Structured Entropy than it currently is.
Bolt Escape Rating: Okay to Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Bolt escape has already been hit hard in previous updates and currently cripples magicka regeneration for 4 seconds after use, as well as increasing the cost after the first cast. However it does provide much needed mobility.
Suggestion: Do not reduce magicka regeneration after casting. Instead increase the magicka cost by +50% per sequential cast (within 1 second of previous cast) to an upper limit of +200% cost. This will have a greater impact on spam casting without crippling tactical casting, and not cripple the utility of one of the sorcerer passives.
Streak morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The streak morph provides a much needed stun, but has the built in limitations associated with Bolt Escape and should be limited to 6 opponents.
Suggestion: Limit stun to 6 opponents to avoid the skill from being overpowered and allow it to stun through shields (but not blocks).
Ball of Light morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The BoL morph provides a very useful defensive capability, but potentially absorbs too many effects.
Suggestion: If there is a concern over the number of effects that this can absorb, then have BoL have a number of charges (5), which are depleted through absorption.
Overload: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This (and its morphs) turns light and heavy attacks into more powerful versions of themselves (heavy causes AoE). Activation also replaces the existing skill bar with a new overload skill bar (which cannot have weapon abilities on) which cannot be weapon swapped whilst the ultimate is active.
Although the damage is vastly improved and the sorcerer has access to an extra set of abilities, there are a couple of problems with how this ability operates in practice to do with the new skill bar. The first is that no weapon skills can be used on this bar, which means that it applies a heavy penalty to stamina builds who have a limited range of usable abilities (fighters guild, assault and armour only) that can go on the bar (everything else usable is magicka). The second is that it is not possible to weapon swap whilst this is active – so you are limited to 5 skills whilst this toggled ultimate is active rather than the normal 10 skills with a weapon swap.
Suggestion: Enable a second bar for “weapon” swapping whilst overloaded and make one sorcerer morph enable weapon abilities on the bar and adding lightning power to the weapons - in essence overloading the weapons rather than the sorcerers hands.
Storm Calling Passives
Capacitor: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increased magicka regeneration is of most benefit to magicka builds, and does relatively little for stamina builds. It is however rendered useless for 4 seconds whenever the sorcerer casts his class skill Bolt Escape.
Suggestion: Change Bolt Escape such that it does not affect magicka regeneration.
If this was to be of use to stamina builds, it would probably need to provide stamina rather than magicka regeneration [passive morph].
Energised: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increased lightning damage is useful for magicka sorcerers, but less so for stamina builds who are unlikely to take many damaging abilities from the skill line as they do not scale with stamina. Stamina sorcerers are more likely to take Thunderous Presence, Critical Surge (if modified) and maybe Streak – and none of them for their damage output.
Suggestion: A damage increase is calculated for weapon attacks and applied in a similar manner, if the weapon has a lightning enchant or Critical Surge is active [could be a passive morph].
Disintegrate: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The chance for lightning damage to cause significant additional damage to low health targets is of most benefit to magicka builds, as they are mostly likely to use magicka abilities (and the damage of disintegrate scales off magicka?). However this will work with Thunderous Presence ticks and weapon enchants.
Suggestion: Allow this to scale off either stamina or magicka – or use an equation such as (stamina+magicka) * scaling factor.
Expert Mage: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increase to spell power of 2% per sorcerer skill on the bar is some benefit to magicka sorcerers, although there is some debate as to how much benefit. However it is of very little benefit to stamina sorcerers as their damage does not come from spells.
Suggestion: Potentially increase the spell power bonus slightly for magicka builds, though TBH I would need to do more testing to be sure of this.
If this was to be of use to stamina builds, it would probably need to reduce the cost of sorcerer spells such that the sorcerer can afford to cast them [passive morph]. This would be a straight 10% magicka cost reduction, ideally across the board (sorcerer trees that is) – but at least for the major stamina user spells:
Lightning Form [+morphs]; Surge / Critical Surge; Streak; Dark Exchange (stamina morph) – so the conversion rate changes slightly; Daedric Mines [+morphs]; maybe Encase (with suggestions included).
Overall Analysis:
Ranged: PVE
Overall this tree is a mixed bag for most sorcerers, in PvE and trials. Lightning Form is insufficient armour to offset the issues of Light Armour, Mage’s Fury is only actually good during executes, Lightning Splash has decent potential damage, but has a woeful radius; Surge is now an ineffective heal and Bolt Escape kills magicka regeneration! However it is possible to use some of these abilities to good effect if you can offset their weaknesses (i.e. root and Lightning Splash), unfortunately most of these mitigation strategies are out of the control of the sorcerer in trials.
It fares rather better in PvP, where Bolt Escape (even with the magicka regen hit) is very useful and Mage’s Fury is also good.
Melee: PVE
This tree could actually be decent for melee sorcerers, if they could afford to use the abilities… and if Surge worked. Lightning Form is effective in melee, Lightning Splash on self would be effective,
Stamina:
There are no significant stamina morphs (Dark Exchange morph is currently unusable unless the sorcerer can run away and hide – and then he cannot do anything for 4s). This means that the cost of most of this line become prohibitively expensive – with the exception of an instant Crystal Fragment.
Mages Fury: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Ranged execute and as such is useful primarily for magicka sorcerers. However due to the base damage level it is significantly less useful outside of execution phases.
Suggestion: Tweak the damage numbers such that it provides a bit more pre-execution (whilst keeping the same overall damage for execute phase) would make it more generally useful – and it would fill the much needed instant filler role. Also upping the execute range to 25% would help.
Endless Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Worthless (stamina)
Killing an opponent with this restores magicka - which means this morph does nothing unless you kill your opponent. Thus it provides no real benefit in the PVE fights you are likely to use it (i.e. single target boss execute phase) and the fact that you must perform the killing blow with this spell means that you can only be sure to get the magicka return in solo play. It is not much more useful in PvP (although it is more useful) for much the same reason (no guarantee that you will get any magicka back).
Suggestion: Rather than regaining magicka, each subsequent cast of this spell reduces the magicka cost of the next cast of this spell within 2 seconds by 10% - to a maximum of 50% reduction. This would enable it to be more endless and useful for sustain, esp. in the execution phase.
Wrath Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The target explosion (the execute element) causes additional damage to nearby enemies. This morph is only useful in group mob situations where the explosion can cause some additional splash damage on the death of an enemy. However this has little PVE benefit as the spell is used during boss execution and there are better AoE spells for AoE phases and fights. It is somewhat more useful in PvP if you can execute a player within a zerg ball.
Suggestion: This now applies a minor healing debuff to all targets hit by it (defile) and activates the explosion at 35% (i.e. +10%). This would provide a group effect and also allow the execution phase to start earlier.
Lightning Form Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This is a potentially useful ability for all sorcerers, but especially for melee sorcerers (normally stamina) as it provides the maximum spell resist and armour buffs for a decent time period and creates a mobile AoE DoT centred on the caster. However the cost of this ability is high (which hits stamina sorcerers hard and hence reduces the ability’s usability down to Okay).
Suggestion: Reduce spell cost by 15%. This pulls the cost more in-line with other classes costs.
Thunderous Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Good (stamina)
The increased duration is useful for stamina sorcerers (inc. Tanks) as it reduces required resources over time (and hence the relative cost).
Boundless Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The speed buff can be very useful but is too short (6s) to provide a significant benefit for the cost.
Suggestion: A longer duration (10s) on the speed buff would be nice, 6s is really not very long.
Lightning Splash Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
A ground AoE (so not blockable) DoT that ticks for slightly longer than on live. It should be useful for magicka sorcerers now due to the fact it cannot be blocked (magicka scaled means it won’t be so good for stamina builds). However the radius is a bit too small to be really useful – it is better than it was, but only really works in conjunction with a CC – or multiple CC casts with the new durations.
Suggestion: Increase radius by 2m. This would make it more usable generally.
Flood Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The base ability is somewhat small and so the increased radius is quite useful in that it hits more targets. Now that the base ability is better, so is the morph.
Suggestion: Increase radius based on the modified base spell radius
Liquid Morph: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This morph has the duration increased, however the rating remains unchanged due to the radius / static nature of the effect. Although the increased duration makes this more palatable for a stamina build (cost is essentially reduced), the damage is still weak for a stamina build.
Suggestion: No change (base radius has been increased)
Surge: Rating: Worthless to Poor (magicka), Poor (Stamina)
Surge now provides weapon damage buff (which is of no benefit to a magicka sorcerer) and healing on critical as the basic ability - which is a good idea (esp. for stamina sorcerers), but the healing component has a 0.25 second CD which has the effect of making the healing far too random to be effective (it will proc on any critical and hence can triggered by a minor DoT critical). In addition this means there is a detrimental synergy with Lightning Form, Lightning Splash and indeed any bleeds (from DW, Bow or 2H lines) as their DoTs can trigger the healing, which are likely to be lower than any direct active ability damage.
Suggestion: The best solution would be to remove the CD, and put a cap on the number of simultaneous heals (or those within a very short timescale such as 0.05 seconds) that can be received (my suggestion would be 6 max). Also set the healing as 50% of critical hit damage or damage (against block / shields).
This should restore it to being a reasonably reliable heal without making it overpowered..
Critical morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (magicka), Poor (Stamina)
The increase in healing is not significant enough to be worthwhile whilst the CD remains in place (it might be okay if the CD is removed). It is currently 10% as a basic increase for the morph, going to 20% at rank IV (which is not as huge an increase as it seems, as it is a percentage of the damage that you did in your attack – which could be a DoT tick).
Suggestion: Remove the additional healing (should not be required if the CD has been removed). Add a minor maim or mangle debuff to enemies hit by the effect (including blocking, but not shielding). This would make it a useful melee tool.
Power morph: Rating: Poor to Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Provides spell power buff as well. However this is currently not as good as the mage guild skill line "Structured entropy", which also benefits from better passives (for its use). In addition for the heals to be effective, this skill must be carefully built and worked around.
Suggestion: Remove the weapon damage buff and add a minor force buff or minor berserk buff.
This would make it a better DPS substitute for Structured Entropy than it currently is.
Bolt Escape Rating: Okay to Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
Bolt escape has already been hit hard in previous updates and currently cripples magicka regeneration for 4 seconds after use, as well as increasing the cost after the first cast. However it does provide much needed mobility.
Suggestion: Do not reduce magicka regeneration after casting. Instead increase the magicka cost by +50% per sequential cast (within 1 second of previous cast) to an upper limit of +200% cost. This will have a greater impact on spam casting without crippling tactical casting, and not cripple the utility of one of the sorcerer passives.
Streak morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The streak morph provides a much needed stun, but has the built in limitations associated with Bolt Escape and should be limited to 6 opponents.
Suggestion: Limit stun to 6 opponents to avoid the skill from being overpowered and allow it to stun through shields (but not blocks).
Ball of Light morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The BoL morph provides a very useful defensive capability, but potentially absorbs too many effects.
Suggestion: If there is a concern over the number of effects that this can absorb, then have BoL have a number of charges (5), which are depleted through absorption.
Overload: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This (and its morphs) turns light and heavy attacks into more powerful versions of themselves (heavy causes AoE). Activation also replaces the existing skill bar with a new overload skill bar (which cannot have weapon abilities on) which cannot be weapon swapped whilst the ultimate is active.
Although the damage is vastly improved and the sorcerer has access to an extra set of abilities, there are a couple of problems with how this ability operates in practice to do with the new skill bar. The first is that no weapon skills can be used on this bar, which means that it applies a heavy penalty to stamina builds who have a limited range of usable abilities (fighters guild, assault and armour only) that can go on the bar (everything else usable is magicka). The second is that it is not possible to weapon swap whilst this is active – so you are limited to 5 skills whilst this toggled ultimate is active rather than the normal 10 skills with a weapon swap.
Suggestion: Enable a second bar for “weapon” swapping whilst overloaded and make one sorcerer morph enable weapon abilities on the bar and adding lightning power to the weapons - in essence overloading the weapons rather than the sorcerers hands.
Storm Calling Passives
Capacitor: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increased magicka regeneration is of most benefit to magicka builds, and does relatively little for stamina builds. It is however rendered useless for 4 seconds whenever the sorcerer casts his class skill Bolt Escape.
Suggestion: Change Bolt Escape such that it does not affect magicka regeneration.
If this was to be of use to stamina builds, it would probably need to provide stamina rather than magicka regeneration [passive morph].
Energised: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increased lightning damage is useful for magicka sorcerers, but less so for stamina builds who are unlikely to take many damaging abilities from the skill line as they do not scale with stamina. Stamina sorcerers are more likely to take Thunderous Presence, Critical Surge (if modified) and maybe Streak – and none of them for their damage output.
Suggestion: A damage increase is calculated for weapon attacks and applied in a similar manner, if the weapon has a lightning enchant or Critical Surge is active [could be a passive morph].
Disintegrate: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
The chance for lightning damage to cause significant additional damage to low health targets is of most benefit to magicka builds, as they are mostly likely to use magicka abilities (and the damage of disintegrate scales off magicka?). However this will work with Thunderous Presence ticks and weapon enchants.
Suggestion: Allow this to scale off either stamina or magicka – or use an equation such as (stamina+magicka) * scaling factor.
Expert Mage: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The increase to spell power of 2% per sorcerer skill on the bar is some benefit to magicka sorcerers, although there is some debate as to how much benefit. However it is of very little benefit to stamina sorcerers as their damage does not come from spells.
Suggestion: Potentially increase the spell power bonus slightly for magicka builds, though TBH I would need to do more testing to be sure of this.
If this was to be of use to stamina builds, it would probably need to reduce the cost of sorcerer spells such that the sorcerer can afford to cast them [passive morph]. This would be a straight 10% magicka cost reduction, ideally across the board (sorcerer trees that is) – but at least for the major stamina user spells:
Lightning Form [+morphs]; Surge / Critical Surge; Streak; Dark Exchange (stamina morph) – so the conversion rate changes slightly; Daedric Mines [+morphs]; maybe Encase (with suggestions included).
Overall Analysis:
Ranged: PVE
Overall this tree is a mixed bag for most sorcerers, in PvE and trials. Lightning Form is insufficient armour to offset the issues of Light Armour, Mage’s Fury is only actually good during executes, Lightning Splash has decent potential damage, but has a woeful radius; Surge is now an ineffective heal and Bolt Escape kills magicka regeneration! However it is possible to use some of these abilities to good effect if you can offset their weaknesses (i.e. root and Lightning Splash), unfortunately most of these mitigation strategies are out of the control of the sorcerer in trials.
It fares rather better in PvP, where Bolt Escape (even with the magicka regen hit) is very useful and Mage’s Fury is also good.
Melee: PVE
This tree could actually be decent for melee sorcerers, if they could afford to use the abilities… and if Surge worked. Lightning Form is effective in melee, Lightning Splash on self would be effective,
Stamina:
There are no significant stamina morphs (Dark Exchange morph is currently unusable unless the sorcerer can run away and hide – and then he cannot do anything for 4s). This means that the cost of most of this line become prohibitively expensive – with the exception of an instant Crystal Fragment.
Dark Magic
The name conjures up a skill tree full of curses, hexes and blood magic… That is not what the skill tree actually has in it though. Thematically it is instead the use of daedric power to CC, damage and recover resources.
Crystal Shards: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The damage is good for magicka sorcerers (scales with magicka) and the knockdown is nice.
However the 1 second cast time is quite long given the dynamic nature of TESO combat and the flight time is quite long. In PvP this makes the spell relatively easy to reflect or block – and in PVE it just makes the sorcerer less dynamic and mobile.
Suggestion: Reduce the flight time dramatically. Make the animation less obvious and less easy to pick out.
Crystal Fragment: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This has a 35% chance when casting magicka abilities to be instant cast and reduced cost.
This is why crystal shards is good, the majority of sorcerers take the ability for this morph alone, and many only use it when it procs due to the base ability cast time. However it does not currently proc off all magicka using abilities, the most notable exception being streak.
Suggestion: This should have a proc chance off all magicka abilities. It would be nice to have the chance for this to proc be increased slightly.
Crystal Blast: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This is morph is far more rarely taken because of the cast time. The idea of an AoE version of the spell is nice, but the cast time makes it generally unappealing compared to the chance for an instant cast.
Suggestion: Make this a morph that scales off stamina. Make it short range (melee and near melee) but AoE (with a knock-down). Enable it to proc off criticals (35% chance) for a insta-cast, reduced cost version. Reduce the damage on the side-shards compared to the main.
Encase Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This is a root that is activated in a cone which can be useful for ranged builds (stamina or magicka, although the cost is somewhat high for stamina builds). However the usefulness of the skill suffers due to the fact that it has no ground decal and is instant meaning that there is some guesswork as to whom it will actually hit (especially at close range) – and because it is a cone then multiple ranged targets may be hit, but potentially few that are in melee will be - which limits its role usage. Currently it seems to find relatively little usage in most builds (exception being some kiting PvP builds, and even then it's rare).
Suggestion: Make it a circular, ranged, ground targeted AoE (as per Lightning Splash) that has exactly the same effect as current. This would allow stamina builds to target it on themselves to keep foes in melee (i.e. Tanks), and ranged to synergise with Lightning Splash to keep foes in the relatively small AoE. Ensure the AoE radius is broadly the same as Talons.
Restraining Prison: Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This morph adds a snare onto the effect when it ends, which is useful if kiting (i.e. in PvP mostly) and was useful for keeping the Exploitation passive going. This latter synergy has now been lost.
Suggestion: The snare effect is somewhat uninspiring but okay considering its main usage - although the duration is somewhat limited.
Shattering Prison: Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This morph causes damage when effect ends – which scales off magicka and hence is of less value to a stamina build. However the damage of this is rather uninspiring regardless.
Suggestion: Rather than cause damage, this morph prevents natural regeneration of resources for 10s (from initial hit rather than at the end of the effect) or a minor drain of resources (i.e. a magicka / stamina DoT). If this cannot be encoded for PvE, then opponents suffer from a DoT effect.
Rune Prison: Rating: Poor (magicka), Poor (stamina)
All classes have a single target hard CC. This is the sorcerer one, it provides a single target hard CC that locks the target completely, but breaks on pretty much any damage.
Currently this is of relatively limited use in PvE, although it can take a single foe out of the fight temporarily, if your pet or splash damage do not break the CC. It does not work on bosses / mini-bosses (where it would actually be very useful – probably too useful) and is ineffectual in group dungeons (due to number of foes). It is also very poor in PvP as opponents can use break free and splash damage abounds.
Suggestion: Rather than break on damage, the target cannot be damaged whilst inside the prison. Also the cost of breaking free from this and other classes equivalents should be increased, such that it is more expensive to break free of these abilities than any other. Maybe the cost to break free should be tied to the remaining duration of the effect.
Rune Cage Morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This adds a stun when the effect ends or is broken. This makes the ability more useful as at least there is a definite stun, but it is still a relatively weak ability.
Suggestion: None
Rune Trap Morph: Rating: Unknown
This creates a trap that activates when the sorcerer is struck – which then causes the Rune Prison.
As I have not tried this, I cannot really comment. It looks like it could be of some use in PvP – especially against gankers.
Dark Exchange: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This is a heal and restoration ability that CCs the sorcerer by applying a snare and being a channel. This means that unless the sorcerer is already safe then it is no use to him/her. This makes perfect sense if you consider a kiting, CC style of play. Get hit, CC foe, step back, heal. Unfortunately this almost never happens. When the ability is required, your pet is generally dead, the foe is CC immune (or you're surrounded) and you are low on resources. So not being able to do anything other than walk slowly is simply not going to help.
Suggestion: Change into a toggle (what another!!). Whilst toggled on, the ability swaps stamina for magicka and health – it does not snare the sorcerer, or stop them using skills, etc. It is automatically toggled off by a performing a weapon swap, or when the sorcerer is hit by an interrupt. Whilst the toggle is active the sorcerers normal regeneration is halted (i.e. 0 magicka, stamina and health regeneration). Whilst on the skill bar (regardless of being on or off), it provides a minor maximum health increase.
The exact levels of conversion may need to be modified to be appropriately balanced – the conversation rate must be good enough to be worth slotting regardless.
“Stamina” Morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This morph changes the conversion from stamina for magicka / health to magicka for stamina / health.
Suggestion: This should convert magicka to stamina and health – and provide a Minor damage mitigation buff (i.e. stamina / magicka morphs should be identical in strength).
Better Conversion Rate Morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This morph makes the conversation rate better.
Suggestion: Rather than improve the conversation rate (as it should be good enough to have a place on the skill bar anyway), this should provide a Minor damage mitigation buff.
Daedric Mines: Rating: Poor (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This generates 3 powerful daedric mines that explode on contact causing higher damage (the damage was buffed in 1.6.x) and a short immobilisation. They have a 3 second activation period and are generated in a PBAoE around the caster. This spell is effective for a melee based magicka build, and less effective for a stamina build (magicka scaling and high cost). The spell has been modified such that it cannot hit a boss with more than 1 mine in 1 second (one of the reasons it is rated as Poor).
Suggestion: Bosses should be affected by multiple mines, but additional mines past the first should have their damage calculated on a diminishing returns basis for such bosses – such that each subsequent mine hit within a 0. 5 second timescale causes -30% damage than the previous (so 100%, 70%, 40%, 10% , 0%) within the 1 second immunity window. In addition the mines (when active) should immobilise (stop) PvP charging attacks (including streak / bolt escape) and should trigger and cause full damage on anyone trying to dodge roll through them (otherwise it rather defeats the point of them). Blocking should not reduce the effectiveness of any mine triggered.
Daedric Tomb: Rating: : Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This generates 3 mines with a 0 second activation period in a straight line in front of the caster. This makes it an effective choice for (some) ranged builds, but generally a less effective morph for melee builds. It is also generally more useful in PvE (though not great in trials) and less useful in PvP. Finally it needs to cause damage on each mine to bosses as they will trigger them all on the way to the sorcerer (assuming he has aggro).
Suggestion: Mines triggered by a boss after the first are scaled by -25% per additional mine hit (i.e. 100%, 75%, 50%) within the 1 second "immunity" window.
Also an alternative to this morph would be the ability to ground target the spell at range (i.e. place the mines at range) - ideally with a short activation (1.5s) or instant activation.
Daedric Minefield: Rating: Okay (all)
This generates 5 mines with a 3 second activation period in a PBAoE pattern around the caster – unfortunately these mines can be dodged through. This would be a relatively effective choice for melee builds but as it scales off magicka and has a high magicians cost it is less useful than it could be.
Suggestion: Make this an ability that scales off stamina (and costs stamina). Remove the gaps such that it is not possible to dodge through the mines. Mines triggered by a boss after the first are scaled by -25% per additional mine hit (i.e. 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 0%) within the 1 second immunity window.
Negate Magic: Rating: Poor to Okay(all)
This used to be the best ability that the sorcerer had (and was arguably OP because of it). Now it is relatively weak (close to useless) as it now has a single negation on activation – and the stun component can be CC broken.
I assume this is supposed to be the sorcerer’s defensive ultimate. However as it stands it fails to fulfil that role (negate did fulfil it as it prevented magicka usage within the area of effect) and I guess it has been modified because it trivialised some game-play elements or was used in a manner that was unexpected (i.e. PvP could become negate wars).
Suggestion: Allow negate magic to negate all abilities on initial activation and then have a charge system where additional negation use up 1 charge per standard ability, 5 per boss ability, and 10 per ultimate ability. The negate field has X charges after the initial negation and hence could negate the next X regular abilities, the next X/5 boss abilities, or the next X/10 ultimates used – at which point it collapses (even if it would have had duration left). My initial suggestion would be 10 charges and/or to tweak with ultimate / boss charge destruction.
Dark Magic Passives
Unholy Knowledge Rating: Okay (magicka), Good (stamina)
This provides a small stamina and magicka ability cost reduction.
Suggestion: Provide a passive morph that skews the reduction to reduce magicka cost abilities by a greater degree (as this will benefit magicka sorcerers who have little use for the stamina element of this [unless it affects dodge rolls and blocking – I will have to test more]).
Blood Magic Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This provides a heal when an opponent is affected by a Dark magic ability, but it tends to be a bit less useful than you would think because most of the spells within the tree are best used before a foe gets to you... which means you haven't yet been hurt - so the heal element is wasted. This is partially due to the shape of Encase (it can often miss targets in melee range) , the 3 second delay of Mines and the 1 second cast of Crystal Shard.
Suggestion: This may work better with some of the changes already noted – such as the change to the shape of Encase, a more consistent Mines. It would need to be tested with these type of change. Alternatively it could provide a damage shield if your health would go above maximum from this passive – this shield would not stack with itself. Or a passive morph provides a damage shield for 20s instead of a heal.
Persistence: Rating: Poor (all)
This increases the duration of the dark magic effects… which although it sounds like it should be good, is actually a relatively poor ability. Although the skill tree has multiple CCs, two are very short duration (Daedric Mines and Crystal Shards) which will be minimally affected, one breaks on any damage and so normally breaks before the duration is up anyway (Rune Prison), leaving only one ability that is consistently usefully affected (Encase). Plus the fact that in PvP, the CC is likely to be broken free of anyway.
Suggestion: Change the passive such that all dark magic abilities apply a minor debuff to targets hit. The debuff would depend on a passive morph, but would be a minor spell resist debuff (magicka morph) or a minor armour debuff (stamina morph). This debuff lasts for 5 seconds.
Exploitation: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor to okay (stamina)
As this now applies a minor prophecy buff (spell critical) on activation, this is not bad for magicka builds, but less useful for stamina builds. Although it does have some group utility. However it also has a negative synergy with Surge for Stamina builds especially as it means that the chance of a spell critical increases – which means that Lightning Form crits are more likely – and hence Surge healing even more unreliable.
Suggestion: Provide a passive morph to enable this to be a weapon critical buff.
Overall Analysis:
Ranged:
Overall this tree has very little to offer many sorcerers in trials – generally the actives are either ineffective (new Negate, Dark Exchange, Rune Prison) , too difficult to use (Encase, Daedric Mines) or likely to get the sorcerer killed (Dark Exchange, Daedric Mines).
In open world PvE, it has “some” useful CC abilities – some of which can also successfully be used in dungeon environments. However these abilities generally either require a setup time (Mines), or range to be useful (Encase is just bad at close range), and hence are of little help when it all goes wrong.
In PvP, Mines can be effective – but generally the tree is of limited benefit.
The one exception to this is Crystal Fragments which generally a decent spell, despite its long cast time.
Melee: PVE
As it stands this tree is not great for melee – generally the actives are either ineffective (new Negate, Dark Exchange, Rune Prison) , too difficult to use (Encase) or likely to get the sorcerer killed (Dark Exchange). The main exceptions being Daedric Mines and Crystal Fragments.
Stamina:
There are no significant stamina morphs (Dark Exchange morph is currently unusable unless the sorcerer can run away and hide – and then he cannot do anything for 4s). This means that the cost of most of this line become prohibitively expensive – with the exception of an instant Crystal Fragment.
Crystal Shards: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
The damage is good for magicka sorcerers (scales with magicka) and the knockdown is nice.
However the 1 second cast time is quite long given the dynamic nature of TESO combat and the flight time is quite long. In PvP this makes the spell relatively easy to reflect or block – and in PVE it just makes the sorcerer less dynamic and mobile.
Suggestion: Reduce the flight time dramatically. Make the animation less obvious and less easy to pick out.
Crystal Fragment: Rating: Good (magicka), Okay (stamina)
This has a 35% chance when casting magicka abilities to be instant cast and reduced cost.
This is why crystal shards is good, the majority of sorcerers take the ability for this morph alone, and many only use it when it procs due to the base ability cast time. However it does not currently proc off all magicka using abilities, the most notable exception being streak.
Suggestion: This should have a proc chance off all magicka abilities. It would be nice to have the chance for this to proc be increased slightly.
Crystal Blast: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This is morph is far more rarely taken because of the cast time. The idea of an AoE version of the spell is nice, but the cast time makes it generally unappealing compared to the chance for an instant cast.
Suggestion: Make this a morph that scales off stamina. Make it short range (melee and near melee) but AoE (with a knock-down). Enable it to proc off criticals (35% chance) for a insta-cast, reduced cost version. Reduce the damage on the side-shards compared to the main.
Encase Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This is a root that is activated in a cone which can be useful for ranged builds (stamina or magicka, although the cost is somewhat high for stamina builds). However the usefulness of the skill suffers due to the fact that it has no ground decal and is instant meaning that there is some guesswork as to whom it will actually hit (especially at close range) – and because it is a cone then multiple ranged targets may be hit, but potentially few that are in melee will be - which limits its role usage. Currently it seems to find relatively little usage in most builds (exception being some kiting PvP builds, and even then it's rare).
Suggestion: Make it a circular, ranged, ground targeted AoE (as per Lightning Splash) that has exactly the same effect as current. This would allow stamina builds to target it on themselves to keep foes in melee (i.e. Tanks), and ranged to synergise with Lightning Splash to keep foes in the relatively small AoE. Ensure the AoE radius is broadly the same as Talons.
Restraining Prison: Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This morph adds a snare onto the effect when it ends, which is useful if kiting (i.e. in PvP mostly) and was useful for keeping the Exploitation passive going. This latter synergy has now been lost.
Suggestion: The snare effect is somewhat uninspiring but okay considering its main usage - although the duration is somewhat limited.
Shattering Prison: Rating: Okay (ranged), Poor (melee)
This morph causes damage when effect ends – which scales off magicka and hence is of less value to a stamina build. However the damage of this is rather uninspiring regardless.
Suggestion: Rather than cause damage, this morph prevents natural regeneration of resources for 10s (from initial hit rather than at the end of the effect) or a minor drain of resources (i.e. a magicka / stamina DoT). If this cannot be encoded for PvE, then opponents suffer from a DoT effect.
Rune Prison: Rating: Poor (magicka), Poor (stamina)
All classes have a single target hard CC. This is the sorcerer one, it provides a single target hard CC that locks the target completely, but breaks on pretty much any damage.
Currently this is of relatively limited use in PvE, although it can take a single foe out of the fight temporarily, if your pet or splash damage do not break the CC. It does not work on bosses / mini-bosses (where it would actually be very useful – probably too useful) and is ineffectual in group dungeons (due to number of foes). It is also very poor in PvP as opponents can use break free and splash damage abounds.
Suggestion: Rather than break on damage, the target cannot be damaged whilst inside the prison. Also the cost of breaking free from this and other classes equivalents should be increased, such that it is more expensive to break free of these abilities than any other. Maybe the cost to break free should be tied to the remaining duration of the effect.
Rune Cage Morph: Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This adds a stun when the effect ends or is broken. This makes the ability more useful as at least there is a definite stun, but it is still a relatively weak ability.
Suggestion: None
Rune Trap Morph: Rating: Unknown
This creates a trap that activates when the sorcerer is struck – which then causes the Rune Prison.
As I have not tried this, I cannot really comment. It looks like it could be of some use in PvP – especially against gankers.
Dark Exchange: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This is a heal and restoration ability that CCs the sorcerer by applying a snare and being a channel. This means that unless the sorcerer is already safe then it is no use to him/her. This makes perfect sense if you consider a kiting, CC style of play. Get hit, CC foe, step back, heal. Unfortunately this almost never happens. When the ability is required, your pet is generally dead, the foe is CC immune (or you're surrounded) and you are low on resources. So not being able to do anything other than walk slowly is simply not going to help.
Suggestion: Change into a toggle (what another!!). Whilst toggled on, the ability swaps stamina for magicka and health – it does not snare the sorcerer, or stop them using skills, etc. It is automatically toggled off by a performing a weapon swap, or when the sorcerer is hit by an interrupt. Whilst the toggle is active the sorcerers normal regeneration is halted (i.e. 0 magicka, stamina and health regeneration). Whilst on the skill bar (regardless of being on or off), it provides a minor maximum health increase.
The exact levels of conversion may need to be modified to be appropriately balanced – the conversation rate must be good enough to be worth slotting regardless.
“Stamina” Morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This morph changes the conversion from stamina for magicka / health to magicka for stamina / health.
Suggestion: This should convert magicka to stamina and health – and provide a Minor damage mitigation buff (i.e. stamina / magicka morphs should be identical in strength).
Better Conversion Rate Morph: Rating: Worthless to Poor (all)
This morph makes the conversation rate better.
Suggestion: Rather than improve the conversation rate (as it should be good enough to have a place on the skill bar anyway), this should provide a Minor damage mitigation buff.
Daedric Mines: Rating: Poor (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This generates 3 powerful daedric mines that explode on contact causing higher damage (the damage was buffed in 1.6.x) and a short immobilisation. They have a 3 second activation period and are generated in a PBAoE around the caster. This spell is effective for a melee based magicka build, and less effective for a stamina build (magicka scaling and high cost). The spell has been modified such that it cannot hit a boss with more than 1 mine in 1 second (one of the reasons it is rated as Poor).
Suggestion: Bosses should be affected by multiple mines, but additional mines past the first should have their damage calculated on a diminishing returns basis for such bosses – such that each subsequent mine hit within a 0. 5 second timescale causes -30% damage than the previous (so 100%, 70%, 40%, 10% , 0%) within the 1 second immunity window. In addition the mines (when active) should immobilise (stop) PvP charging attacks (including streak / bolt escape) and should trigger and cause full damage on anyone trying to dodge roll through them (otherwise it rather defeats the point of them). Blocking should not reduce the effectiveness of any mine triggered.
Daedric Tomb: Rating: : Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This generates 3 mines with a 0 second activation period in a straight line in front of the caster. This makes it an effective choice for (some) ranged builds, but generally a less effective morph for melee builds. It is also generally more useful in PvE (though not great in trials) and less useful in PvP. Finally it needs to cause damage on each mine to bosses as they will trigger them all on the way to the sorcerer (assuming he has aggro).
Suggestion: Mines triggered by a boss after the first are scaled by -25% per additional mine hit (i.e. 100%, 75%, 50%) within the 1 second "immunity" window.
Also an alternative to this morph would be the ability to ground target the spell at range (i.e. place the mines at range) - ideally with a short activation (1.5s) or instant activation.
Daedric Minefield: Rating: Okay (all)
This generates 5 mines with a 3 second activation period in a PBAoE pattern around the caster – unfortunately these mines can be dodged through. This would be a relatively effective choice for melee builds but as it scales off magicka and has a high magicians cost it is less useful than it could be.
Suggestion: Make this an ability that scales off stamina (and costs stamina). Remove the gaps such that it is not possible to dodge through the mines. Mines triggered by a boss after the first are scaled by -25% per additional mine hit (i.e. 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, 0%) within the 1 second immunity window.
Negate Magic: Rating: Poor to Okay(all)
This used to be the best ability that the sorcerer had (and was arguably OP because of it). Now it is relatively weak (close to useless) as it now has a single negation on activation – and the stun component can be CC broken.
I assume this is supposed to be the sorcerer’s defensive ultimate. However as it stands it fails to fulfil that role (negate did fulfil it as it prevented magicka usage within the area of effect) and I guess it has been modified because it trivialised some game-play elements or was used in a manner that was unexpected (i.e. PvP could become negate wars).
Suggestion: Allow negate magic to negate all abilities on initial activation and then have a charge system where additional negation use up 1 charge per standard ability, 5 per boss ability, and 10 per ultimate ability. The negate field has X charges after the initial negation and hence could negate the next X regular abilities, the next X/5 boss abilities, or the next X/10 ultimates used – at which point it collapses (even if it would have had duration left). My initial suggestion would be 10 charges and/or to tweak with ultimate / boss charge destruction.
Dark Magic Passives
Unholy Knowledge Rating: Okay (magicka), Good (stamina)
This provides a small stamina and magicka ability cost reduction.
Suggestion: Provide a passive morph that skews the reduction to reduce magicka cost abilities by a greater degree (as this will benefit magicka sorcerers who have little use for the stamina element of this [unless it affects dodge rolls and blocking – I will have to test more]).
Blood Magic Rating: Okay (magicka), Poor (stamina)
This provides a heal when an opponent is affected by a Dark magic ability, but it tends to be a bit less useful than you would think because most of the spells within the tree are best used before a foe gets to you... which means you haven't yet been hurt - so the heal element is wasted. This is partially due to the shape of Encase (it can often miss targets in melee range) , the 3 second delay of Mines and the 1 second cast of Crystal Shard.
Suggestion: This may work better with some of the changes already noted – such as the change to the shape of Encase, a more consistent Mines. It would need to be tested with these type of change. Alternatively it could provide a damage shield if your health would go above maximum from this passive – this shield would not stack with itself. Or a passive morph provides a damage shield for 20s instead of a heal.
Persistence: Rating: Poor (all)
This increases the duration of the dark magic effects… which although it sounds like it should be good, is actually a relatively poor ability. Although the skill tree has multiple CCs, two are very short duration (Daedric Mines and Crystal Shards) which will be minimally affected, one breaks on any damage and so normally breaks before the duration is up anyway (Rune Prison), leaving only one ability that is consistently usefully affected (Encase). Plus the fact that in PvP, the CC is likely to be broken free of anyway.
Suggestion: Change the passive such that all dark magic abilities apply a minor debuff to targets hit. The debuff would depend on a passive morph, but would be a minor spell resist debuff (magicka morph) or a minor armour debuff (stamina morph). This debuff lasts for 5 seconds.
Exploitation: Rating: Good (magicka), Poor to okay (stamina)
As this now applies a minor prophecy buff (spell critical) on activation, this is not bad for magicka builds, but less useful for stamina builds. Although it does have some group utility. However it also has a negative synergy with Surge for Stamina builds especially as it means that the chance of a spell critical increases – which means that Lightning Form crits are more likely – and hence Surge healing even more unreliable.
Suggestion: Provide a passive morph to enable this to be a weapon critical buff.
Overall Analysis:
Ranged:
Overall this tree has very little to offer many sorcerers in trials – generally the actives are either ineffective (new Negate, Dark Exchange, Rune Prison) , too difficult to use (Encase, Daedric Mines) or likely to get the sorcerer killed (Dark Exchange, Daedric Mines).
In open world PvE, it has “some” useful CC abilities – some of which can also successfully be used in dungeon environments. However these abilities generally either require a setup time (Mines), or range to be useful (Encase is just bad at close range), and hence are of little help when it all goes wrong.
In PvP, Mines can be effective – but generally the tree is of limited benefit.
The one exception to this is Crystal Fragments which generally a decent spell, despite its long cast time.
Melee: PVE
As it stands this tree is not great for melee – generally the actives are either ineffective (new Negate, Dark Exchange, Rune Prison) , too difficult to use (Encase) or likely to get the sorcerer killed (Dark Exchange). The main exceptions being Daedric Mines and Crystal Fragments.
Stamina:
There are no significant stamina morphs (Dark Exchange morph is currently unusable unless the sorcerer can run away and hide – and then he cannot do anything for 4s). This means that the cost of most of this line become prohibitively expensive – with the exception of an instant Crystal Fragment.
Daedric Summoning
Rather than critique the summoning line, I will simply provide a link to a few thoughts: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest
There have been a few recent changes that have buffed pets further - including a significant heal from the desummoning/death of a pet. However the problem with this is that this is the only currently reliable heal (even if it does require a delayed summons - so it is not exactly an instant heal) and hence potentially forces all sorcerers down this route for survival (not necessarily true in trials, but in PvE and PvP probably true).
Anyway, I hope this helps the debate.
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Very good assessment, I agree.
As for discussion, I will get back to you...This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@jar_ek Good post. First I will say that I do believe the magicka regen halt on Bolt Escape has been removed in 1.6. I don't think there were patch notes on it, but it was not in the description for any morph of Bolt Escape anymore. Second, you and many other people are hating on Liquid Lightning WAYYYY too much. This spell does BIG TIME dmg and is a must have at this point. The small radius is Okay in my book, because it is introduces an element of skill (even if that includes you working with your tank better) and it is worth it to recast it if the boss/enemies move out of the way. Third, I have to disagree with you assessment of Daedric Mines and Minefield for stamina Sorc. The cost is HUGE to the point where it is a vast majority of my magicka bar in stamina spec and the dmg is underwhelming considering it scales off of magicka/spell power. Deadric Mines are a spell that I never will touch in a stamina spec.
Now that I got the negatives out of the way, Yes to your assessments of everything else. I'm a big fan of your vision of Daedric Summoning line where it gives us more active abilities to use. It is similar to what they did with the Dual Wield line and Blade Cloak where you have a secondary activation ability. As for everything else, maybe some of your suggestions to fix aren't exactly the direction I would go, but I fully agree on what you see as weaknesses with all of our other abilities.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭I am not sure if i agree with all suggestion.
But i certainly agree with the assesment of strengths and weaknesses1 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Third, I have to disagree with you assessment of Daedric Mines and Minefield for stamina Sorc. The cost is HUGE to the point where it is a vast majority of my magicka bar in stamina spec and the dmg is underwhelming considering it scales off of magicka/spell power. Deadric Mines are a spell that I never will touch in a stamina spec.
Definitely Agree here. This skill is extremely useful as a utility spell for stamina sorcs but it costs way too much and the damage output is still a bit too low. These need more damage and a lower cost. (at least for the Minefield morph since it already includes an arming time making it impossible to spam)>
I have seen players willingly walk through the mines holding block (or not) because they were too lazy to walk around.
You should have to watch your feet. You have to watch your feet in PvE, those wisp mines will kill you in AA. You should have to watch your feet in PvP as well.
Here are some great uses of this skill that would be great if Stamina sorcs could handle the cost.
Bow Sorc: I like that this skill isn't a ground effect (that you have to place with the circle) so that it is much quicker. You drop these and stand in them. Technically it gives you some protection against charges however it doesn't seem to always root people charging in on you as it should. Volcanic rune does stop charges and this should as well if the charge path goes over the mine.
Sword and Shield armored Sorc: Again if you are fighting someone in close quarters, especially a DK or Templar with access to talons or biting jabs, this is a nice thing to throw down mid fight to control the battlefield and use the terrain to your advantage.
I thought that Eric said something about either reducing the cost of this ability or increasing the damage in an ESO live. I really hope they reconsider and lower the cost of this spell.
Sorc spells that cost way too much for what they do:
Encase - should be changed to a ground effect
Crit Surge - Great magica based utlilty spell for stam sorcs but was ALREADY expensive before 10% cost increase to storm calling
Daedric Mines(minefield morph) - More damage, less cost. Watch your feet!Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on 23 February 2015 22:250 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭I agree with th Daedric mine costs for stamina builds and have updated the OP.
I would like to get some other feedback on this assessment if various sorcerers are willing, particularly with respect to the skill trees applicability to different roles, build types and ranges.
@Gil.Galad @pppontus @Erock25 @Dracane Opinions welcome.Edited by Jar_Ek on 24 February 2015 15:060 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't feel qualified to comment much on Stamina sorcs as I've never tried it. I haven't fully tested repeat casts of Daedric Mines but I agree these need to be triggered reliably as that would put Melee Magicka Sorcerers on the table which would be really cool imo. Overall, don't 100% agree with your assessment that certain skills are poor/ok namely:
Surgewhich I still use on my Magicka sorc when soloing and it heals me ok, I just need ward as well, not much of a change more than add one additional skill. Imo good because it makes playing more interactive, same thing happens for other classes like my NB now needs blur to solo trash as opposed to just spamming one skill.
Liquid Lightning is the strongest damage over time effect currently available in the game, it has the limitation of movement but honestly, the radius is larger than it "looks" as you only need a tiny part of the boss hitbox to stay inside it so it works really well in almost any situation in PVE.
Thundering Presence is currently all that melee Magicka is offering, and it's a pretty decent DOT in melee range and especially considering it only needs to be cast every 20s it's actually very strong and should be on your bar almost always. Combined with LL and Impulse + Valkyn Skoria it will melt stuff in AOE and having it on your offbar to cast every 20s will increase your DPS on single target.
Negate Magic will still be incredibly useful in PVP, sure it is no longer an area denial, but considering the slow ult regen having your ultimates wiped will be a real annoyance. This will still be one of the things to rely on really hard especially when fighting larger groups of enemies, they will have more ultimates and it will be up to your Sorcs to make sure they can't wipe you with 5 banners (still).
I'd rate all these skills very highly because of the reasons specified.
Other than that I agree with most your ratings of the skills themselves (for magicka) and I don't know enough about Stamina. If it is indeed this bad for Stamina Sorcs I agree they should be given more love.
0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry Jar my lizard friend
But I don't comment on stamina Sorcs. They should focus on improving our magical skills. Improving stamina only takes away potential for magical Sorcerers.
I don't support this whole stamina Sorc thing. A 2 handed sword is all you need.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane NP. I was trying to cover both magicka and stamina however. I would appreciate your thoughts on the magicka side :-)
I'm still reading The status 'unkown' on defensive rune made me laugh so hard ^^ Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alright. I have read it. I like your suggestion to increase the base radius of lightning splash.
But the rest is a bit weird and experimental, especially the daedric mines change.
Daedric mines is our only interesting pvp skill (in my opinion) and would be totally worthless with this changes.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You put a lot of thought into this and much of what you say regarding the overall strengths and weaknesses I'd say are on target and reasonable substantiated. I do take issue with your assessment of:
Mage's Fury: This spell is very good for magicka based sorcs: it is an instant cast executable from 28 meters away! The game's other executables are much more restrictive (typically range and cast time) so raising it's threshold would unbalance it. Let's be fair here, sorcs needed help badly, but this was their one PvE skill that DKs were a bit jealous of. While I agree neither morph is particularity exciting, the one that returns magic does come into play in PvP is moderately useful.
Lightning Form: I think they fixed this and it is better than "okay" now. Its previous low duration made this spell very cost inefficient for what it did. There is a lot of versatility here now at a reasonable cost. I have issues with sorcerers in general but not with this spell (now).
Expert Mage: I think this is now less than the "good" you assessed it as. On it's own the passive would not be all that bad, but this passive was not created in a vacuum: it is replacing a very useful 10% reduction sorcerers had previously enjoyed.
Daedric Mines: This spell is not okay, it is poor. High cost, low damage, poor CC, cumbersome to use, unnecessary opponent immunities all make it a loser no matter what morph you pick. In PvP players intentionally go through mines and in PvE DSA, I also ignore the mage boss's mines. That is all that needs to be said about this pisspoor spell.
Negate: This is *not* worthless. While I agree that allowing opponents to cast stuff after it is placed down is silly, immersion breaking and drains much of the usefulness of this ultimate, the ability to eliminate enemy ultimates and enact a stun is "okay."
Edited by Joy_Division on 24 February 2015 17:570 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »You put a lot of thought into this and much of what you say regarding the overall strengths and weaknesses I'd say are on target and reasonable substantiated. I do take issue with your assessment of:
Mage's Fury: This spell is very good for magicka based sorcs: it is an instant cast executable from 28 meters away! The game's other executables are much more restrictive (typically range and cast time) so raising it's threshold would unbalance it. Let's be fair here, sorcs needed help badly, but this was their one PvE skill that DKs were a bit jealous of. While I agree neither morph is particularity exciting, the one that returns magic does come into play in PvP is moderately useful.
Lightning Form: I think they fixed this and it is better than "okay" now. Its previous low duration made this spell very cost inefficient for what it did. There is a lot of versatility here now at a reasonable cost. I have issues with sorcerers in general but not with this spell (now).
Expert Mage: I think this is now less than the "good" you assessed it as. On it's own the passive would not be all that bad, but this passive was not created in a vacuum: it is replacing a very useful 10% reduction sorcerers had previously enjoyed.
Daedric Mines: This spell is not okay, it is poor. High cost, low damage, poor CC, cumbersome to use, unnecessary opponent immunities all make it a loser no matter what morph you pick. In PvP players intentionally go through mines and in PvE DSA, I also ignore the mage boss's mines. That is all that needs to be said about this pisspoor spell.
Negate: This is *not* worthless. While I agree that allowing opponents to cast stuff after it is placed down is silly, immersion breaking and drains much of the usefulness of this ultimate, the ability to eliminate enemy ultimates and enact a stun is "okay."
I am sorry, but considering its pre-mangled incarnation the new Negate is completely useless, at least for PvE.0 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭I would like to see some kind of "activation" skill for our Mines - would be useful in PvE. If the mines are not triggered by the boss, you could let them burst after ten seconds by activating the ability again and that will cause damage in the area of the minefield (I talk about the minefield morph) so that you always hit the boss etc. - for sure only 50% of damage or something like that, but it could be useful for PvE (and I really would love to see placing where WE want to, so that it will be a ranged morph).
A little math:
1 mine = 1000 damage
5 mines = 5000 damage
You trigger the mines -> ~ 2,5k damage.
With a mine triggered by the boss and 4 left mines:
1000 + 2000 -> 3k damage.
With two mines triggered by the boss and 3 left mines:
2000 + 1.500 -> 3,5k damage.
And so on.
Daedric Mines are a nice spell, but in most PvE situations unusable (due to range and procc limitation).0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »You put a lot of thought into this and much of what you say regarding the overall strengths and weaknesses I'd say are on target and reasonable substantiated. I do take issue with your assessment of:
Mage's Fury: This spell is very good for magicka based sorcs: it is an instant cast executable from 28 meters away! The game's other executables are much more restrictive (typically range and cast time) so raising it's threshold would unbalance it. Let's be fair here, sorcs needed help badly, but this was their one PvE skill that DKs were a bit jealous of. While I agree neither morph is particularity exciting, the one that returns magic does come into play in PvP is moderately useful.
Lightning Form: I think they fixed this and it is better than "okay" now. Its previous low duration made this spell very cost inefficient for what it did. There is a lot of versatility here now at a reasonable cost. I have issues with sorcerers in general but not with this spell (now).
Expert Mage: I think this is now less than the "good" you assessed it as. On it's own the passive would not be all that bad, but this passive was not created in a vacuum: it is replacing a very useful 10% reduction sorcerers had previously enjoyed.
Daedric Mines: This spell is not okay, it is poor. High cost, low damage, poor CC, cumbersome to use, unnecessary opponent immunities all make it a loser no matter what morph you pick. In PvP players intentionally go through mines and in PvE DSA, I also ignore the mage boss's mines. That is all that needs to be said about this pisspoor spell.
Negate: This is *not* worthless. While I agree that allowing opponents to cast stuff after it is placed down is silly, immersion breaking and drains much of the usefulness of this ultimate, the ability to eliminate enemy ultimates and enact a stun is "okay."
I am sorry, but considering its pre-mangled incarnation the new Negate is completely useless, at least for PvE.
And when you begin to make objective statements that consider contrary viewpoints, you might find ZoS more receptive to your opinions. As far as I understand, placing a negate on enemies will still stun non-bosses and it will still remove dangerous abilities such as the Nova dropped by the bosses in Vet DSA. Depending on the morph, allies will get certain bonuses as well. That might not make it is as (over)powerful as it once was, but it clearly is not "useless." As Eric Wrobel specifically cited these effects as the reasoning behind the changes, you are going to actually have to construct an actual analysis that considers his perspective to convince him that he is mistaken.
Edited by Joy_Division on 24 February 2015 18:270 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭I have updated the assessment based on the feedback received.
@Dracane The Daedric mines damage reduction for multiple mines would only be for CC immune bosses - not for players in PVP. Currently the bosses only take damage from the first mine - which just seems wrong considering the cost.
Also I have modified a few suggestions - although you will probably still find them weird
With regards the suggestions, I am trying to suggest things that make it better overall - so if anyone else has suggestions (better hopefully) please let me know and I will add them in.
@Joy_Division I think you are right, I have probably underestimated Negate somewhat - and have applied some judicious reassessment to the other ratings. However I think that Negate has gone from OP to UP and completely bypassed about right. Personally I could live without the stun component if it still had an area denial effect - hence the suggestion about applying charges to it.0 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭what makes encase clunky is not the shape of the spell, the dang thing cast whichever way your character is facing, not your aim reticle. so you think your aiming at the target but your character is facing some off angle and you totally miss what your aiming for.
-fix needed- make it so when you aim your reticle that is the direction that encase will cast. simple fix.
ps streak is suffering this same issue at the start of 1.6Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos0 -
GreyRanger✭✭✭Sorry to be discouraging guys, but the current Sorcerer is locked for 1.6. No tanking, no stamina DPS, and no healing help see Gina here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152589/pts-1-6-3-sorcerer-detailed-balance-feedback#latest
The current build is what goes to live. They will reevaluate for a future update.0 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »You put a lot of thought into this and much of what you say regarding the overall strengths and weaknesses I'd say are on target and reasonable substantiated. I do take issue with your assessment of:
Mage's Fury: This spell is very good for magicka based sorcs: it is an instant cast executable from 28 meters away! The game's other executables are much more restrictive (typically range and cast time) so raising it's threshold would unbalance it. Let's be fair here, sorcs needed help badly, but this was their one PvE skill that DKs were a bit jealous of. While I agree neither morph is particularity exciting, the one that returns magic does come into play in PvP is moderately useful.
Lightning Form: I think they fixed this and it is better than "okay" now. Its previous low duration made this spell very cost inefficient for what it did. There is a lot of versatility here now at a reasonable cost. I have issues with sorcerers in general but not with this spell (now).
Expert Mage: I think this is now less than the "good" you assessed it as. On it's own the passive would not be all that bad, but this passive was not created in a vacuum: it is replacing a very useful 10% reduction sorcerers had previously enjoyed.
Daedric Mines: This spell is not okay, it is poor. High cost, low damage, poor CC, cumbersome to use, unnecessary opponent immunities all make it a loser no matter what morph you pick. In PvP players intentionally go through mines and in PvE DSA, I also ignore the mage boss's mines. That is all that needs to be said about this pisspoor spell.
Negate: This is *not* worthless. While I agree that allowing opponents to cast stuff after it is placed down is silly, immersion breaking and drains much of the usefulness of this ultimate, the ability to eliminate enemy ultimates and enact a stun is "okay."
I am sorry, but considering its pre-mangled incarnation the new Negate is completely useless, at least for PvE.
And when you begin to make objective statements that consider contrary viewpoints, you might find ZoS more receptive to your opinions. As far as I understand, placing a negate on enemies will still stun non-bosses and it will still remove dangerous abilities such as the Nova dropped by the bosses in Vet DSA. Depending on the morph, allies will get certain bonuses as well. That might not make it is as (over)powerful as it once was, but it clearly is not "useless." As Eric Wrobel specifically cited these effects as the reasoning behind the changes, you are going to actually have to construct an actual analysis that considers his perspective to convince him that he is mistaken.
Wrong.
Gil.Galad was perfectly objective and was complemented for being so by ZOS.
His many excellent observations and suggested solution made NOT ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE.
It doesn't matter how you tell ZOS they have mangled the magicka (and stamina) Sorc.
THEY DON'T CARE...0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »You put a lot of thought into this and much of what you say regarding the overall strengths and weaknesses I'd say are on target and reasonable substantiated. I do take issue with your assessment of:
Mage's Fury: This spell is very good for magicka based sorcs: it is an instant cast executable from 28 meters away! The game's other executables are much more restrictive (typically range and cast time) so raising it's threshold would unbalance it. Let's be fair here, sorcs needed help badly, but this was their one PvE skill that DKs were a bit jealous of. While I agree neither morph is particularity exciting, the one that returns magic does come into play in PvP is moderately useful.
Lightning Form: I think they fixed this and it is better than "okay" now. Its previous low duration made this spell very cost inefficient for what it did. There is a lot of versatility here now at a reasonable cost. I have issues with sorcerers in general but not with this spell (now).
Expert Mage: I think this is now less than the "good" you assessed it as. On it's own the passive would not be all that bad, but this passive was not created in a vacuum: it is replacing a very useful 10% reduction sorcerers had previously enjoyed.
Daedric Mines: This spell is not okay, it is poor. High cost, low damage, poor CC, cumbersome to use, unnecessary opponent immunities all make it a loser no matter what morph you pick. In PvP players intentionally go through mines and in PvE DSA, I also ignore the mage boss's mines. That is all that needs to be said about this pisspoor spell.
Negate: This is *not* worthless. While I agree that allowing opponents to cast stuff after it is placed down is silly, immersion breaking and drains much of the usefulness of this ultimate, the ability to eliminate enemy ultimates and enact a stun is "okay."
I am sorry, but considering its pre-mangled incarnation the new Negate is completely useless, at least for PvE.
And when you begin to make objective statements that consider contrary viewpoints, you might find ZoS more receptive to your opinions. As far as I understand, placing a negate on enemies will still stun non-bosses and it will still remove dangerous abilities such as the Nova dropped by the bosses in Vet DSA. Depending on the morph, allies will get certain bonuses as well. That might not make it is as (over)powerful as it once was, but it clearly is not "useless." As Eric Wrobel specifically cited these effects as the reasoning behind the changes, you are going to actually have to construct an actual analysis that considers his perspective to convince him that he is mistaken.
The problem is, Negate wasn't used simply to silence mobs, specially since the boss mobs never spawn together and are mostly ranged. No, we usually placed the Negate around our group following the same "stack and live" strategy encouraged by other ultimate such as Veil.
With Mangled Negate we can still dispell dangerous spells, yes, but how long does it take for those same mobs to recast the spell we just neutralized? Not long enough to be worth a Ultimate slot, not long enough for the Utility of Negate to be needed for a raid as it used to be.
The simple fact is, Sorcerers have little to no utility to bring into trials. We give out a 3% nearly meaningless increase to spell crit and that is about it, Negate doesnt provide enough damage mitigation to be an option as Veil is or Corrosive Armor and the second morph is a joke. There is a reason no one chooses drinks over food, no one cares that much about Magicka and Stamina Regen, we have better ways of managing our resource pools than relying on a Sorcerer's ultimate.
I am sorry if my last posts haven't been as constructive, but maybe you should read back a little. I've actually made quite a few constructive posts until I became overpowered by frustration. The guild I am part of was one of the guilds @ZOS_JessicaFolsom met in TS and I personally wrote a document going over every sorcerer active and passive, can you guess how much of that seem to have reach the Developers?
I can be very constructive, unfortunately being so doesn't seem to appeal at all to our Devs, so maybe blunt sarcasm will, or at least it may cause the PR department to wake up.Edited by Grao on 28 February 2015 04:140 -
Kingdinguhling✭✭✭Honestly the biggest problem I probably have with Sorcerer is the Cost of all the spells are just ridiculously expensive. The biggest problem is Sorcerers have no room for error on anything because the spells cost way too much. at VR2 I can barely cast Encase 4 times with full VR1 gear on and all light with magicka enchants. factor in having to DPS and buff you don't have much room for a miss-key and this I believe is one of the biggest problems plaguing Sorcerer. Also for Bolt Escape the Penalty is far too crippling now with the increased cost of other sorcerer spells.
I think some of these things if emplmented in the OP are slightly overpowered. for the sake of balance all of these changes couldn't be made but a few would go a very long way. Sorcerer in its current state is not player friendly in any way. Maybe a player with a few hundred game hours might be able to perform on par with a mediocre DK , Templar or NB but anyone just reaching 50 is seriously frustrated with Sorcerer. There needs to be some changes made soon or the class is gonna have no player base. And like I have said in previous forums no one knows absolutely for sure whether sorcerer will be a contender once 1.6 goes live but I can tell you this much in my hours of play on PTS I didn't see a big enough difference.
If our best survivability tool in Light armor is gonna be Bolt Escape Don't make it Kill us to use it. After casting a few times you have nothing left.
Its still very very unforgiving.
One very minor mistake will start the horse riding simulator over for Sorcerer in Cyrodiil.
I typically always tested as a magicka Sorcerer in 5 Light armor Mixed with 2 heavy or med for a little Survivability.
I tested one 2 hour period as a Stamina Sorcerer but wasn't too impressed either.
I did jumped on the other 3 classes (VR14 Templates) on the PTS and was very easily able to go toe to toe with others with absolutely no general knowledge of the skills or how they work. I am not saying I did fantastic but I was scoring kills in PVP and never had problems in PVE. I feel Sorcerer is far too complex and the spells just don't pack a big enough punch. Also they simply Cost too much for the weak damage they do provide.1