I don't get the idea

ZRage

The point is, why healing is so strong in this game, DK later templar just few click self no-brainer mode go to full health. And the ability to REFLECT projectile, I'm serious you guys from ZOS ever played Baldur's Gate ? Even in rock paper scissor D&D such things were balanced and at least you could "Break" any overpowered Buff.

The point is why here people can just spam one button all the time and reflect projectiles, be invicible or just heal self instantly after 100 mistakes they still stand and fight while other classes like NB/SORC insta die lol.

I jus't dont get this, why put something like damage over time into the game, when healing is 10 times stronger, people get like ten of thousands of heal per second.

And yet you nerf the only counter in the game that could mitigate this nonsense - defile.

If there is time to change this, it's now.

Panda244

DoTs - Extremely effective in taking down squishy targets in small group scenarios
Defile - Effective all the time
Reflect - Has been nerfed
Eclipse - Breaks Reflect
Heals - See Defile
NB Insta Dieing? - Sap Tank build, also known as strongest AoE tank build there ever was


You were saying? Everything has a counter, and every counter has a counter, and every counters' counter has a counter to their counter. Still following?

Nightblades and Sorcerers do lack in the healing department but that's about it, when it comes to Templars and Dragonknights, the only ones I can't kill are the ones' that are built more to survive my build... Because of the whole 5 skills 1 ultimate deal, every build has a counter build, and there are more efficient builds than some. So... Nothing needs changing imo.

madangrypally

Most players do not know they can cc break Templars eclipse and gain an immunity from it. Sadly this is a l2p.

Dragonknight reflect has been nerfed and with more stamina based DKs will be used left often.

And like Panda244 says everything has a counter. People just need to use them more often instead of trying to faceroll the game.

IMO this is a good time trying to find new counter builds for the new Update 6 meta.

ZRage

What's the counter if you play ranged character and you enco a DK or group of DK's spamming reflect exactly?

Going back to town and respec character?

ZRage

OR maybe not engaging at all just ALT+F4 ?

Cody

ZRage wrote: »

OR maybe not engaging at all just ALT+F4 ?

get out a melee weapon and charge them.

if you don't have a melee weapon, then yes, dont engage. You are perfectly capable of fighting RS.

Roechacca

To fight DK's it's a pain for a NB right now . After 1.6 who knows ? Sypher does . Send him a mail and ask . For now , Razor Caltrops , Syphon Strikes , Evasion , Cloak morphed to cleanse , Two Handed weapon strikes with a gap closer will give you a chance . I mostly elect to avoid a DK right now as my NB is only VR3 . I have no trouble on my Templar . No one should dismiss what you're saying , it's very true that only a few really good PvPers can pull this off consistently but it can be done . Usually against a bad DK .... lol

I feel you're frustration for sure .

Roechacca

Also the right gear sets are so important , I can't stress it enough . Almost every close fight comes down to a gear issue along with class imbalances so always try to get that gear tweaked just right .

ZRage

Cody wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

OR maybe not engaging at all just ALT+F4 ?

get out a melee weapon and charge them.

if you don't have a melee weapon, then yes, dont engage. You are perfectly capable of fighting RS.

So there you go ranged character is useless because of no-brain ability that gives complete immunity to projectiles over and over again.

Also great idea to charge as NB with ehp of a mudcrab, no insta heal no damage shield sounds like a melee class?

Fatalyis

In Live, it's usually a combo of Shades+Resto heavy attacks+Fear until RS is down long enough to get some damage in. Were I melee, that wouldn't be an issue but it's a bit more difficult as a caster NB.

On PTS, though, it's a hell of a lot easier to deal with. I don't have nearly as much trouble with DKs....mainly because most are stamina based and they aren't spamming Talons or RS.

Roechacca

A lot of DK's are also Vamps in PvP . If you get the Camouflage Hunter and morph snipe to lethal arrow while attacking from stealth you can get the jump on a lot of DKs . I've killed VR14s on my VR3 by stacking a boat load of crit and popping weapon crit potions . If you were wanting to know one possible way with just the bow . Animation cancel as much as you can with the snipes for maximum pain .

Panda244

I don't avoid any classes on any my DK or my NB, I fight until I die, or I fight until I start backing up to regenerate resources, then I fight again.

ZRage wrote: »

What's the counter if you play ranged character and you enco a DK or group of DK's spamming reflect exactly?

Going back to town and respec character?

Use a melee weapon as an offhand, if you have ranged on both your weapon bars you're an idiot, no offense, no offense at all, but it's silly to run ranged on both bars when combat can get up close and personal, you can't always stay at range, so don't complain if you're 100% ranged and someone closes the difference, as for Reflect spamming DKs.

Fear them as a NB right when Reflect runs out, gives you a small 2-3 second window to hit them with an ability such as crippling grasp or swallow soul, or lethal arrow. On a NB vs a DK it's all about wearing their Stamina down then finishing them with your Ambush - Death Stroke/Soul Tether - Impale burst.

As a Sorcerer, Spam Mage's Wrath and Crystal Shards with Defensive Posture to Reflect the Shards back, use Encase when they get close then Bolt Escape through them. (This is actually the easiest class to kill DK's with when built right, Sorcerer's can legitimately spec into an Anti-DK build if they want to. Not entirely effective in zerg play, it's alright in group play, but excels in 1v1 encounters.)

As a Templar, Eclipse them, then use Blazing Spears or Biting Jabs to drain their stamina, or spam Blazing Shield to damage them. Come 1.6, just spam Radiant Destruction, it's a channeled ranged ability meaning you can't Reflect it, it deals some pretty hardcore damage.

DKs are harder to kill in group play than they are in 1v1, they excel in groups and zergs because they can drop a Standard or Bats every 10s and survive forever thanks to Battle Roar, however this is nerfed in 1.6, so DKs aren't gods anymore.

madangrypally

ZRage wrote: »

What's the counter if you play ranged character and you enco a DK or group of DK's spamming reflect exactly?

Going back to town and respec character?

Depends on build. Example of my live builds:

Templar: I am melee based and just fly into the DK or group of DKs. I use Blazing Shield and attempt to keep them near me as possible. I heal when needed and save all my stamina for cc break and dodge roll. Time the ultimate for when the DK is low enough and can get a stun off and hopefully kill him before he breaks free.

The main issue I have with this is sometimes I cant kill the good DKs but they cant kill me either. A few times we just end up bowing to each other and go hunt elsewhere. lol.
========================

Sorcerer: This is a little harder to do but still possible even with reflectors. Many Sorcerers do not use daedric mines which is a shame. Most DKs do not have great ranged abilities and the ones who do are likely easier to counter with timing.

What I do on these type is make them come to me. Line of Site is a good option here. I lure them around a rock, tree or something and drop mines. I bolt escape/fight on the mines and make the DK go through them to get to me. I keep block up not to block attacks but to prevent getting pulled to the DK.

Once I see the dragon wings I time it and likely have a crystal frag ready for when the timer is up. I then bolt escape ONTO the DK and hit him in the face with it. Cant dodge or wings in time normally. I also use Overload during these times. Crystal Frag then Overload light attack. I continue to use line of site and mines during this entire process. Hardened ward helps. Most current DKs are magicka based so do not have a good charge so can charge damage is minor. Sooner or later the DK has low stamina and once that happens hes dead pretty fast.

As with Templar sometimes it ends in a draw and after a very long fight I just go find someone else to kill. lol. This only happens with skilled opponents though which most are not.

ZRage

OK, looks like some people don't understand what I mean

The point is it doesn't matter at all if I can swap my weapon to melee, the point is such mechanic like reflect projectile is no-brainer and it's big hard counter which virtually forces you to play certain build and renders other useless (ranged builds).

It's just silly takes 1 DK to tank / take resource in cyro because the can just reflect everything back at NPC, same goes down to PvE and core PvP. It's just broken mechanic and need to be fixed, some effort must be included into such OP ability (like correct timing at least). This skill is 10 times better than reflect from 1h and shield skill line, lol.

I know that devs don't want to go with drastic changes to classes, DK is now dominant class and obviously this will go along with a lot of rage, crying and suicide letters but balance is balance.

This current change limiting reflective scale to 4 projectile isn't enough in my opinion, it won't even change much. This is pretty simple when people see reflective scale the simply STOP attacking because who the hell will risk loosing their resource and on top of that dealing damage to self lol. On top of that they can spam this to reflect up to 50 projectiles that is enough to kill self 10 times over.

You have set items on yourself and certain build but whatever, you got to swap weapon and go melee with ranged char.

To those who say people playing with 2 ranged weapons are idiots YOU are just silly, lol seriously which melee character have ranged weapon in their second bar. The answer is maybe 1%, the reason is simple it is current meta period. Are melee chars forced to go ranged because of some idiotic skills that render melee useless?, hell the fu*k no.

It's just too much, perma block+ skill spam- auto-heals in 2 click and reflective armors WTF.

Panda244

ZRage wrote: »

OK, looks like some people don't understand what I mean

The point is it doesn't matter at all if I can swap my weapon to melee, the point is such mechanic like reflect projectile is no-brainer and it's big hard counter which virtually forces you to play certain build and renders other useless (ranged builds).

It's just silly takes 1 DK to tank / take resource in cyro because the can just reflect everything back at NPC, same goes down to PvE and core PvP. It's just broken mechanic and need to be fixed, some effort must be included into such OP ability (like correct timing at least).

I know that devs don't want to go with drastic changes to classes, DK is now dominant class and obviously this will go along with a lot of rage, crying and suicide letters but balance is balance.

This current change limiting reflective scale to 4 projectile isn't enough in my opinion, it won't even change much. This is pretty simple when people see reflective scale the simply STOP attacking because who the hell will risk loosing their resource and on top of that dealing damage to self lol. On top of that they can spam this to reflect up to 50 projectiles that is enough to kill self 10 times over.

You have set items on yourself and certain build but whatever, you got to swap weapon and go melee with ranged char.

To those who say people playing with 2 ranged weapons are idiots YOU are just silly, lol seriously which melee character have ranged weapon in their second bar. The answer is maybe 1-5%, the reason is simple it is current meta period. Are melee chars forced to go ranged because of some idiotic skills that render melee useless?, hell the fu*k no.

It's just too much, perma block+ skill spam- auto-heals in 2 click and reflective armors WTF.

Reflect Was nerfed heavily. Problem solved.

Patch 1.5 and before melee builds could be rendered obsolete by certain abilities, @Cody can explain that to you if he chooses.

I've never met someone in PvP that uses ranged on both bars unless they're a Sorcerer. So yeah, anyone with a brain will have a melee weapon and a ranged, combat changes, you have to change with it.

ZRage

But obviously this comes from a guy whos main is DK.

ehhh.

Panda244

ZRage wrote: »

But obviously this comes from a guy whos main is DK.

ehhh.

My main is my Nightblade

Cody

No one is calling you an idiot; we are simply telling you how it is. I understand why you would think scales is OP; well let me tell you, its not(and heck it bugs too, last night I had snipes getting thru it:() if you choose to go full ranged, then you have to accept the consequences; just like someone who is going full melee would have to accept the fact they would be mowed down at range by everyone.

Liea

Cody wrote: »

No one is calling you an idiot; we are simply telling you how it is. I understand why you would think scales is OP; well let me tell you, its not(and heck it bugs too, last night I had snipes getting thru it:() if you choose to go full ranged, then you have to accept the consequences; just like someone who is going full melee would have to accept the fact they would be mowed down at range by everyone.

But is that not exactly what makes Reflective Scales overpowered: You can go full melee without being mowed down at range? Where are the consequences for going full melee as a dragonknight - I honestly do not see any? Instead it looks to me as though dragonknights by using Reflective Scales get to force other players into their (dragonknights') playstyle (melee) - where they (dragonknights) are strongest?

madangrypally

Liea wrote: »

But is that not exactly what makes Reflective Scales overpowered: You can go full melee without being mowed down at range? Where are the consequences for going full melee as a dragonknight - I honestly do not see any? Instead it looks to me as though dragonknights by using Reflective Scales get to force other players into their (dragonknights') playstyle (melee) - where they (dragonknights) are strongest?

Going full melee is just as bad as going full ranged if not more so. As a PvP Sorcerer I can easily stay at ranged and away from my target, besides the few times I go into melee on purpose. This means a pure melee build has trouble attacking me while I can attack him. Once I burn there stamina they are pretty much screwed from that point on. (though good pvp builds will now include enough stamina recovery to make this much harder if not impossible).

IMO pure melee builds have it tougher then pure ranged builds. It is still a good idea to have both melee and ranged bars though. I do on all but my Sorcerer.

Would be nice to get a melee based magical weapon like a scepter or melee based quarterstaff.

Vis

madangrypally wrote: »

Most players do not know they can cc break Templars eclipse and gain an immunity from it. Sadly this is a l2p.

Dragonknight reflect has been nerfed and with more stamina based DKs will be used left often.

CC breaks and blocking costs have gone through the roof. A sorc that breaks eclipse more than twice will soon have a no stamina to prevent being dominated by a templar's cc's. Sooo, no.

Scales nerfed? A reflect every second is no nerf at all. Yes, DKs can no longer range tank an army, but will still shutdown any magicka sorc is half a second. Even going full stamina and using just bare minimal cost reductions, my dk can use scales over a dozen times. Less scales with stamina builds? I will post a video of it later today if you like, but my goal ultimately is to get sorc buffs than nerf others.

Laughable that you accuse others of l2p when you have not even tested the new balance of things.

Vis

Cody wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

OR maybe not engaging at all just ALT+F4 ?

get out a melee weapon and charge them.

if you don't have a melee weapon, then yes, dont engage. You are perfectly capable of fighting RS.

Magicka sorcs using melee weapons? What are we supposed to do? Tickle them with our 500 dmg light attacks?

Vis

Panda244 wrote: »

I don't avoid any classes on any my DK or my NB, I fight until I die, or I fight until I start backing up to regenerate resources, then I fight again.

ZRage wrote: »

What's the counter if you play ranged character and you enco a DK or group of DK's spamming reflect exactly?

Going back to town and respec character?

Use a melee weapon as an offhand, if you have ranged on both your weapon bars you're an idiot, no offense, no offense at all, but it's silly to run ranged on both bars when combat can get up close and personal, you can't always stay at range, so don't complain if you're 100% ranged and someone closes the difference, as for Reflect spamming DKs.

Fear them as a NB right when Reflect runs out, gives you a small 2-3 second window to hit them with an ability such as crippling grasp or swallow soul, or lethal arrow. On a NB vs a DK it's all about wearing their Stamina down then finishing them with your Ambush - Death Stroke/Soul Tether - Impale burst.

As a Sorcerer, Spam Mage's Wrath and Crystal Shards with Defensive Posture to Reflect the Shards back, use Encase when they get close then Bolt Escape through them. (This is actually the easiest class to kill DK's with when built right, Sorcerer's can legitimately spec into an Anti-DK build if they want to. Not entirely effective in zerg play, it's alright in group play, but excels in 1v1 encounters.)

Disclaimer: I want sorc buffs. No class nerfs, just sorc buffs

Geez, have you used a melee weapon in 1.6 as a magicka build? How do you plan to kill anyone with less than 2k dps? Especially when you are saying sorcs should get into melee range against DKs whose skills excel at melee range? That is truly idiotic (since you like to use that word).

Spam mage's fury? Less than 1.5k dps, no one will die. Use defensive posture? Are you nuts? Have you played 1.6 as a magicka build yet? Do you know how many defensive postures you can use in 1.6 as a magicka build? I should make a video to show how insane a suggestion that is with the new stamina costs. That is all assume you are not losing stamina for other cc and attacks too. Worse yet, you suggest it's balance that to get to half the dps a dk can do, a sorc should have to drain both his magicka and stamina and pray his reflect times perfectly? It's obvious you just want a pure ez-mode.

I know you want to protect your dk, but you fail to realize how the dynamics have changed with 1.6. 1v1s are a dps race, and with 1 reflect a second DKs have lost nothing, while with stamina costs sorcs have fallen further behind scales.

Why can't you get behind better class balance and support buffs for sorcs?

Liea

madangrypally wrote: »

IMO pure melee builds have it tougher then pure ranged builds. It is still a good idea to have both melee and ranged bars though. I do on all but my Sorcerer.

I think I understand what you are getting at: melee attacks only work at melee range but ranged attacks work at range and close-in equally well? Then, would it not be better if ranged abilities only did like 70 % damage of melee attacks to make up for this discrepancy - and do even less damage outside of meele range?
Example:

• melee attack does 1000 points of damage
• ranged attack does 700 points of damage at melee range, everything else (resource cost, cast time [if any], ...) being equal to the melee attack
• ranged attack does 200 points of damage outside of melee range, again everything else (resource cost, cast time [if any], ...) being equal to the melee attack

Mind you, the numbers are just examples and would have to be tweaked to fit.
But would this system not best remedy the fact that melee attacks only damage while at melee range?

Vis

Cody wrote: »

No one is calling you an idiot; we are simply telling you how it is. I understand why you would think scales is OP; well let me tell you, its not(and heck it bugs too, last night I had snipes getting thru it:() if you choose to go full ranged, then you have to accept the consequences; just like someone who is going full melee would have to accept the fact they would be mowed down at range by everyone.

For the hundredth time, there are no magicka melee weapons. Once there are, then you will see less rage over scales. So, why can't you support buffs for sorcs so they can counter scales?

madangrypally

Vis wrote: »

CC breaks and blocking costs have gone through the roof. A sorc that breaks eclipse more than twice will soon have a no stamina to prevent being dominated by a templar's cc's. Sooo, no.

Scales nerfed? A reflect every second is no nerf at all. Yes, DKs can no longer range tank an army, but will still shutdown any magicka sorc is half a second. Even going full stamina and using just bare minimal cost reductions, my dk can use scales over a dozen times. Less scales with stamina builds? I will post a video of it later today if you like, but my goal ultimately is to get sorc buffs than nerf others.

Laughable that you accuse others of l2p when you have not even tested the new balance of things.

I have tested things like defensive moves: CC Break, Dodge Roll, etc. I understand that they have a higher cost. I also play a Sorcerer who fights DKs and Templars who use reflect often and still manage to win the majority of the time. They can be countered even with the increased cost.

My sorcerer has more trouble with Nightblades then the other classes in PvP. This is a l2p issue with me though. lol.

I have also tested my Sorcerer and have left many feedback for them.

I dont want to see DKs nerfed anymore as I think this creates a toxic loop of one class calling for another class to be nerf. Today its DKs, later it will be Templar, and one day it will be us Sorcerers.

I also think Sorcerer needs buffed and some class mechanics changed.
1: Pets: Get ride of them being toggled or at least give them a small window before desummoned when switching bars without the toggle. (even then I generally avoid pets)
2: Stamina options should be increased. Including an Overload morph that allows weapon abilities to be used.
3: A few other abilities need to be buffed including Daedric Armor which IMO sucks.
4: A few other buffs that may be required for PvE but i am not familiar with PvE so will leave that to PvE players.

Calling for nerfs to DK is not the way to get Sorcerers buffed.

Vis

Liea wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

IMO pure melee builds have it tougher then pure ranged builds. It is still a good idea to have both melee and ranged bars though. I do on all but my Sorcerer.

I think I understand what you are getting at: melee attacks only work at melee range but ranged attacks work at range and close-in equally well? Then, would it not be better if ranged abilities only did like 70 % damage of melee attacks to make up for this discrepancy - and do even less damage outside of meele range?
Example:

• melee attack does 1000 points of damage
• ranged attack does 700 points of damage at melee range, everything else (resource cost, cast time [if any], ...) being equal to the melee attack
• ranged attack does 200 points of damage outside of melee range, again everything else (resource cost, cast time [if any], ...) being equal to the melee attack

Mind you, the numbers are just examples and would have to be tweaked to fit.
But would this system not best remedy the fact that melee attacks only damage while at melee range?

With reflects and absorbs everywhere, that is already the case. Melee dps >>magicka dps.

If reflect and absorbs get nerfed for any reason, then we can revisit damage balance.

Vis

madangrypally wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

CC breaks and blocking costs have gone through the roof. A sorc that breaks eclipse more than twice will soon have a no stamina to prevent being dominated by a templar's cc's. Sooo, no.

Scales nerfed? A reflect every second is no nerf at all. Yes, DKs can no longer range tank an army, but will still shutdown any magicka sorc is half a second. Even going full stamina and using just bare minimal cost reductions, my dk can use scales over a dozen times. Less scales with stamina builds? I will post a video of it later today if you like, but my goal ultimately is to get sorc buffs than nerf others.

Laughable that you accuse others of l2p when you have not even tested the new balance of things.

I have tested things like defensive moves: CC Break, Dodge Roll, etc. I understand that they have a higher cost. I also play a Sorcerer who fights DKs and Templars who use reflect often and still manage to win the majority of the time. They can be countered even with the increased cost.

My sorcerer has more trouble with Nightblades then the other classes in PvP. This is a l2p issue with me though. lol.

I have also tested my Sorcerer and have left many feedback for them.

I dont want to see DKs nerfed anymore as I think this creates a toxic loop of one class calling for another class to be nerf. Today its DKs, later it will be Templar, and one day it will be us Sorcerers.

I also think Sorcerer needs buffed and some class mechanics changed.
1: Pets: Get ride of them being toggled or at least give them a small window before desummoned when switching bars without the toggle. (even then I generally avoid pets)
2: Stamina options should be increased. Including an Overload morph that allows weapon abilities to be used.
3: A few other abilities need to be buffed including Daedric Armor which IMO sucks.
4: A few other buffs that may be required for PvE but i am not familiar with PvE so will leave that to PvE players.

Calling for nerfs to DK is not the way to get Sorcerers buffed.

While I do not agree with all the suggestions, I do agree with the sentiment. I also have a v14 templar and v14 dk. I don't want either nerfed. I want DKs to recognize the tough positions of sorcs cease trolling sorcs trying to get buffed (as some on this thread have tried to do in other sorc threads).

DKs closing their eyes and giving insane solutions to sorcs (1h damage for magicka builds? Really?) is counterproductive.

Liea

Vis wrote: »

With reflects and absorbs everywhere, that is already the case. Melee dps >>magicka dps.

If reflect and absorbs get nerfed for any reason, then we can revisit damage balance.

Oh, my bad: I should have added I would replace the reflects and absorbs in favor of the system I suggested, not add it on top - you are absolutely right saying that would be far too punishing.

Vis

Accidental double post.

madangrypally

Vis wrote: »

DKs closing their eyes and giving insane solutions to sorcs (1h damage for magicka builds? Really?) is counterproductive.

I agree that switching to a melee build for sorcerers is a little silly for magicka builds. The abilities will do low damage and sorcerers will have trouble in melee range due to lower damage mitigation and survivablity even with Hardened Ward.

I do jump into melee range for short burst though even on my Sorcerer but those are more for crystal frag to face at close range moments.

Though I for one would love if they added a magicka based melee build like 1-hand and scepter. lol. This would make me love my Sorcerer even more.