Toggle Abilities:

madangrypally

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

helediron

That might work for pets but not for permatoggles like Inner Light. I'd prefer an "extended" bar or "shift" bar. The usual bar is visible but e.g. by not being in combat, standing still and pressing and holding shift i could access the toggles.

Animal_Mother

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

Wouldn't that essentially give you a 12 slot skill bar? I understand the frustration of keeping the same skills on two different bars - I have to do the same with my purge and heals. But that is the price I pay for having fingers with minds of their own and the price that those who use toggle abilities have to pay as well.

The only toggle skill I can think of that all classes have access to is Mage Light. Maybe if all classes had access to pets this would be a good thing, but giving one class (Sorcs) a 12 slot skill bar is a bit too much to ask for.

ToRelax

Animal_Mother wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

Wouldn't that essentially give you a 12 slot skill bar? ...

Let me just answer this quick and simple: no.

madangrypally

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Wouldn't that essentially give you a 12 slot skill bar? I understand the frustration of keeping the same skills on two different bars - I have to do the same with my purge and heals. But that is the price I pay for having fingers with minds of their own and the price that those who use toggle abilities have to pay as well.

The only toggle skill I can think of that all classes have access to is Mage Light. Maybe if all classes had access to pets this would be a good thing, but giving one class (Sorcs) a 12 slot skill bar is a bit too much to ask for.[/quote]

As a DK I can use Fire Attacks and dot the enemy and switch bars. The dots are still active.
I can switch and use Momentum and its still active after switching bars.

I do not think it to much to have a small countdown before toggle abilities end when switching even if its just 5 seconds.

If people are so against that idea then make pets not toggle abilities. Summon a pet and its active until it dies or its unsummoned at which time it needs to be resummoned. This will mean they take only one slot.

Jahosefat

Animal_Mother wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

Wouldn't that essentially give you a 12 slot skill bar? I understand the frustration of keeping the same skills on two different bars - I have to do the same with my purge and heals. But that is the price I pay for having fingers with minds of their own and the price that those who use toggle abilities have to pay as well.

The only toggle skill I can think of that all classes have access to is Mage Light. Maybe if all classes had access to pets this would be a good thing, but giving one class (Sorcs) a 12 slot skill bar is a bit too much to ask for.

Putting overload on your bar gives 5 extra slots.... That isn't overpowered, I don't see how this would be. And the sorc's major source of sustained damage is toggles... not heals that you *like* having access to on both bars. Well I also like having access to my bolt escape on two bars; throw some of our toggles on there, and you have like 1 or 2 slots left. It isn't the same, we are the only class with this much of a toggle problem.

Armitas

If not this could we at least make structured entropy not take 2 slots? The skill is really not good enough to warrant 2 slots.

Grao

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

heh, I gave this suggestion to @ZOS_JessicaFolsom in a guild meeting two weeks ago. I'd suggest a 25-30 seconds though and a small Magicka cost for the "refresh" nothing too high, but a small cost nonetheless.

olsborg

This is a great idea, /signed.

ItsRejectz

TTTOOOGGGGLLLEEESSSSS!!! Probably the one thing I hate more than anything. Hate having to put the same skill on both bars just to keep the skill up, especially if you have pets.

Jar_Ek

I had a think about toggles and considered the same solution, but it doesn't really work in my opinion. It forces a regular bar swap and currently weapon swaps are somewhat unreliable. Also how would it work with overload?

Maybe a better solution would be http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest which is a reinvention of the daedric skill tree, but it covers toggles.

Or the pets are refreshed by using one of the pet buff morphs, such as daedric prey and empowered ward. This would mean that the second bar would be at least a partial pet buff bar.

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I had a think about toggles and considered the same solution, but it doesn't really work in my opinion. It forces a regular bar swap and currently weapon swaps are somewhat unreliable. Also how would it work with overload?

Maybe a better solution would be http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest which is a reinvention of the daedric skill tree, but it covers toggles.

Or the pets are refreshed by using one of the pet buff morphs, such as daedric prey and empowered ward. This would mean that the second bar would be at least a partial pet buff bar.

Interesting post, that one. I would change a few actives suggested and some passives though. Later will put out my ideas on paper and post it.

daemonios

Pets as toggles are idiotic to begin with. I'm sorry, there's no other way I can describe it. A toggle would be something you'd be permanently channeling. If you're a summoner, you should summon your pets and be done with it, they'd be there until they time out or die (as in every other Elder Scrolls game before this).

Besides not making any sense, the pets-as-toggles contributes to the problems with the Sorcerer class, especially magicka Sorcerers. We're the squishiest if we go full Light Armour, have terrible DPS *and* have to devote 2-4 slots on each bar to toggles (typically 2 pets and Inner Light, but Bound Armour is also a toggle), leaving us with 2 or 4 slots for actual skills. No other class has this, at most crit builds use Inner Light so they have 8 slots free to use as they like. Not to mention that if you go for a pet build you'll probably have to set aside even *more* slots for pet-friendly skills (curse, heals, shields).

The mere convenience of having a skill on both bars shouldn't even be considered IMHO. It's completely different to have 2 slots taken by the same skill because I *like* it that way, or because I *must* have it that way.

TL;DR: just make pets normal summons. I don't mind that Inner Light and Bound Armour remain toggles (Bound Armour is useless anyway, giving 900 Armour out of a 30k+ hard cap is laughable), but the pets should work like normal abilities.

AssaultLemming

I vote leave the other toggles as toggles but make pets a summon. Maybe with a 60 sec timer if necessary but they should stop taking up 4 spell slots it's ridiculous.

Digiman

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

As a sorcerer, no. The problem is with the way those toggles were coded. Quite frankly the pet should remain even if you switch to a second ability bar. The only way it would desummon is when the game detects that the pet ability isn't on weapon bar one or two.

The reason why I say weapon bar 1 or 2 only is to prevent people from putting the pet ability in their overload or werewolf bar to abuse it for an extra space on the main weapon bars.

daemonios

Digiman wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

There are many complaints about Toggle abilities. These make it that a player must have them on both bars if they wish to keep them active without reusing the ability. I think there is a simple solution to this issue that is not overpowered and shouldn't cause any problems.

Lets use Sorcerer Pets as an example.
Bar 1: Summon Pet.
Bar 2: No Summon Pet.

Currently when switching to bar 2 the pet disappears immediately.
Suggested change: Switching to Bar 2 now gives the Pet a 10 second timer and it will disappear after 10 seconds if Bar 1 is not reactivated.

This will mean players can still switch bars and still have their toggle abilities. 10 Seconds was used as an example, but it could be even shorter like 5 seconds if needed.

As a sorcerer, no. The problem is with the way those toggles were coded. Quite frankly the pet should remain even if you switch to a second ability bar. The only way it would desummon is when the game detects that the pet ability isn't on weapon bar one or two.

The reason why I say weapon bar 1 or 2 only is to prevent people from putting the pet ability in their overload or werewolf bar to abuse it for an extra space on the main weapon bars.

I disagree with both of you. I think pets should be pure summons. Once they're summoned, they should remain until killed or until some time-out.

Other skills remain even if you remove them from your bars (e.g. volcanic rune, caltrops). You can't switch skills in combat, so at most you can summon your pets *before* going in combat, and if they die or despawn you can't re-summon. To be honest I can't see a valid reason why pets should despawn just because the skill is no longer in any of your bars, let alone on the active bar.

Saltypretzels

There should be a dedicated toggle slot that doesn't change no matter which bar you are using. That would solve so many problems. It would make us all a little more powerful, yes, and it seems like monster power could be adjusted up slightly as a result.

daemonios

utzpretzels wrote: »

There should be a dedicated toggle slot that doesn't change no matter which bar you are using. That would solve so many problems. It would make us all a little more powerful, yes, and it seems like monster power could be adjusted up slightly as a result.

Why complicate things even more? The problem isn't toggles as a concept, it's how we're being pushed towards toggle-heavy builds. 1 toggle slot doesn't fix that.

The reason why we're talking about toggles now is that when you reached VR1 and started really optimizing your build, you'd inevitably conclude that pets are rubbish and wouldn't ever bother with them again. In 1.6 pets are one of the few areas where Sorcs were buffed, yet they require a huge number of slots because they're toggles and because they require additional skills to buff pets or increase their survivability.

Simplest fix: change pets from toggles into regular summons. Leave the other toggles as they are.

Lied

Personally, I'm lazy and would prefer a less-skilled 10-slot action bar that would auto-swap weapons based on the skill you used. No, really

madangrypally

daemonios wrote: »

I disagree with both of you. I think pets should be pure summons. Once they're summoned, they should remain until killed or until some time-out.

Other skills remain even if you remove them from your bars (e.g. volcanic rune, caltrops). You can't switch skills in combat, so at most you can summon your pets *before* going in combat, and if they die or despawn you can't re-summon. To be honest I can't see a valid reason why pets should despawn just because the skill is no longer in any of your bars, let alone on the active bar.

I think making them summoned until death/desummoned will be the best solution also.

Exstazik

rainbow of love from pets

eliisra

I hate toggles so much. I would even prefer if they had a set timer like a 60-90 sec buff. Anything is better than loosing 2 skill slots because of using Mage's Light + something else.

But making them active on both bars (while only equipped on one) could cause problems to. Let's say I have Siphoning Attacks up on a NB and it's execute phase and I'm Impaling away, but the toggle is still up because the game is non-responsive again. Than I have to weapon swap back to the first bar and try to toggle it of (furiously), than swap back again, loosing loads of dps. Same with pets, let's say little exploding monkey is about to aggro something. Remove the pet derp! But you have to weapon swap first and it runs wild for at least 2 seconds pulling half the room. Might not be that convenient.

My vote is removing the toggle mechanic from the game entirely and balance skills and classes from there. Toggles makes no sense in a game with only 10 skill slots. This isn't just some exclusive sorcerer problem either(even if they suffer the most), all classes but templar has a stupid toggle and all casters are sort of forced to use Mage's Light.

Septimus_Magna

Toggles are a nightmare with only 5 active skills imo. Its reduces the build diversity too much. Almost all magicka builds use Inner light with result these magicka buikds only have 4 active skills per bar. If you fancy a build with pets and inner light you can only have 2 active abilities per bar, I think the fun will quickly disappear when you play with so few active abilities.

I would make one skill slot specially for toggles so it stays on with both bars. Everyone benefits from this in 1.6 because expert hunter has basicly changed to inner light for stamina builds.

ghengis_dhan

I cannot agree with most of the posters here. I love toggles. In fact, my fingers get so twisted during a tough fight (arthritis runs in my family), I much prefer 3 toggles with only two active abilities mapped to my mouse's roller (up for 1, down for 2). That's one of the reasons I always choose Sorcerer for my characters.

It all goes back to the reason ZOS decided to go with two 5-slot bars. You have to choose carefully to find that perfect build that works for you. For me, it's as many toggles as I can fit on my bars.

AssaultLemming

I would love to see all toggles replaced with timed buffs instead. If you remove the spell from your main bars you lose the buff, or recast to remove intentionally. Inner light and siphoning strikes could have a 30 min timer, pets could have 60 seconds etc. This would solve so many build problems...

BugCollector

Coming from a Templar...

I think sorcs pet summons should only require one slot. 2 slots is just ridiculous to make a pet build viable. On the other hand, Inner light SHOULD have a 2 slot requirement

glak