Why Lightning for Sorcs?

Zabernat

I have been curious ever since I started playing why there's an entire lightning class skill line for Sorcs but no corresponding fire or frost. I understand how that could become complicated and the existence of the flame and frost destruction staves attempt to mitigate this, but it would be a really awesome addition to the class overall and could lead to a variety of new and different play styles developing within the class.

Have people already been talking about this? (I'm sure they have I just can't find it under the mound of PTS 1.6 complaints)

Also, @ZOS_GinaBruno are there any general changes such as this planned for existing classes? And will necromancy ever come into developer's plans as new updates roll out later? I'm looking towards the future right now which I know is risky since we probably aren't seeing any really new items appear until late summer at the earliest but I can't help myself!

Feel free to comment and share ideas

Shunravi

People have been talking about it, trust me.

While I can point to lore and say that that's why the class has summons, and to some extent, the dark magic line, I cannot really explain why they have exclusively lightning destruction spells.

My standing theory is that no one class is meant to be the caster class, so they gave fire to Dk (with all the better damage and synergy therein), lightning to sorcs, then they forgot about frost and shipped the classes. So, imo, it's the fault of the class system in eso.

I also think they gave it to the sorc class because what they came up with fit with TES lore about the class... That they are conjurers who wear medium/heavy armor and use weapons (surge supported this pre 1.6 imo. And lightning form, being a resistance buff with small lightning procs did too, with BE being ambiguous, but supportive of both the traditional and TES sorc.)


That however does not mean that what I see as their goal for the class is viable. The viability of all this is a different argument though.

Athas24

Shunravi wrote: »

People have been talking about it, trust me.

While I can point to lore and say that that's why the class has summons, and to some extent, the dark magic line, I cannot really explain why they have exclusively lightning destruction spells.

My standing theory is that no one class is meant to be the caster class, so they gave fire to Dk (with all the better damage and synergy therein), lightning to sorcs, then they forgot about frost and shipped the classes. So, imo, it's the fault of the class system in eso.

I also think they gave it to the sorc class because what they came up with fit with TES lore about the class... That they are conjurers who wear medium/heavy armor and use weapons (surge supported this pre 1.6 imo. And lightning form, being a resistance buff with small lightning procs did too, with BE being ambiguous, but supportive of both the traditional and TES sorc.)


That however does not mean that what I see as their goal for the class is viable. The viability of all this is a different argument though.

There is actually an IN GAME explanation for why sorcerers use lightning only. At this point in time historically the highest mage has only mastered the concept of summoning lightning and such. There are several lore books about it that you've probably already picked up and never read. Many are in the mages guild halls and surrounding areas. One book in particular discusses the fact that this master mage finds it preposterous to think that anyone could suggest summoning fire, ice etc. because if he cannot do it then how could anyone else *he's pretty vain* unfortunately his vanity is directly related to our sorcerers failures haha. Now go read your lore books using the didactic memory from Shalador and have fun!

Shunravi

Very insightful, I must have missed that one, @Athas24. Could you find and link it from the imperial library? I would very much like to read it. (them?) and I'm not ingame atm.

Also, could you please explain how that doesn't clash with DK abilities and fire and ice staves. It would be appreciated.

If this does indeed prove some of the certations I have been making wrong, that would be awesome.

Athas24

@Shunravi , I'll have to take a peek later tonight at the ol library in game. I don't know how it makes sense however for DK's to use fire lore wise though. Maybe they aren't technically summoning it per say? Its a pretty solid question though. I have always wanted my Sorc. to be able to use ICE and FIRE though instead of just Lightning.

Shunravi

The thing is, I vaguely remember it now, but I can't remember it's name or where I found it. I'm scouring UESP ant the imperial library atm, I will link when I find it.

Shunravi

@Athas24, is this it? On the Utility of Shock Magic by Vanus Galerion?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Utility_of_Shock_Magic

He doesn't say ice and fire magics are not useable... Just that he finds lightning easier to form. This text is either dated or inaccurate, because he states one of the unique uses for shock magic he has found is to make a 'proximity mine' rune. The rune that does this comes from his own mages guild and is fire, not lightning. Also, 'lightning bolts can be cast at enemies in a number of variations.' Is also not exclusive to lightning spells in game. Heck, a DK can form fire into a whip and lash you with it.

Is there another I should look for? I love researching, so please say yes.

Athas24

@Shunravi , That's the one! There are also a few others that elude to how lightning is cast but I think that's about it. Apparently I remembered the book incorrectly though it does explain a bit why we can't shoot fireballs I guess... Since you enjoy lore book research, here's a site you may enjoy! http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Books_(Online) I personally enjoy this book a bit on Ayleids and magic http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_from_the_Sky .

Zabernat

Athas24 wrote: »

@Shunravi , That's the one! There are also a few others that elude to how lightning is cast but I think that's about it. Apparently I remembered the book incorrectly though it does explain a bit why we can't shoot fireballs I guess... Since you enjoy lore book research, here's a site you may enjoy! http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Books_(Online) I personally enjoy this book a bit on Ayleids and magic http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_from_the_Sky .

Ah okay... So I guess it's just the the NPCs that are lore breaking then? There are plenty of ice casters in-world, although I'll admit most of the fire users tend to be monsters of daedric origin. Either way, thanks for the response! I found it most informative, at least where lore is concerned

Shunravi

I personally prefer http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page and http://www.imperial-library.info/, but the wiki is good too.

I was just a bit confused, because to me that text merely stated that one arrogant and conceited man had only found mastery of shock magic. You threw me off by saying that it was an explanation for why sorcerers use lightning only. It is merely an account of one mans failures to grasp at all forms of magic. (apparently including fire rune and its morphs, as well as flame staff magic apparently...)

I read the lorebooks I encounter. I'm glad i did not react as negatively as I could have regarding your offhanded jab. Otherwise this would have been far less civil.

I'm going to look for some of the other books as well. Keep in mind, the schools of magic are not defined at this time. That will come with spellcrafting. If spellcrafting ever comes....

I like this one... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sorcery_is_Not_Necromancy! His outrage is.... familiar.

Pappa

There is Ice and Fire available to sorcs and everyone else via the Destruction staff, i carry all three for different situations
Prolly not what you wanted to hear, but it is available

Zabernat

Pappa wrote: »

There is Ice and Fire available to sorcs and everyone else via the Destruction staff, i carry all three for different situations
Prolly not what you wanted to hear, but it is available

You're right, although I did already mention that at the start of this thread.

Basically, w/ the presence of other magic types throughout the in-game world I wasn't sure as to why there aren't more options for players

Shunravi

Pappa wrote: »

There is Ice and Fire available to sorcs and everyone else via the Destruction staff, i carry all three for different situations
Prolly not what you wanted to hear, but it is available

And crushing shock does all three in one!!!

Pappa

Zabernat wrote: »

Pappa wrote: »

There is Ice and Fire available to sorcs and everyone else via the Destruction staff, i carry all three for different situations
Prolly not what you wanted to hear, but it is available

You're right, although I did already mention that at the start of this thread.

Basically, w/ the presence of other magic types throughout the in-game world I wasn't sure as to why there aren't more options for players

Sorry must of missed that, need to stop reading forums at an ungodly hour

Khivas_Carrick

I have often wondered why Sorcs do not have a more traditional set up as well. That lightning tree could easily be an entire multiple elemental skill line, and bam, you get to stick with dark magic and daedric summoning. Literally everything about a sorcerer, all in one tidy best little package.

Zabernat

It's true, I guess we will just have to wait and see though. I was really sad to hear that the spell crafting got put away on a shelf for the time being. That would have probably fixed it so that every class could be the kind of spell-caster they wanted to be, including the Sorcerer

Shunravi

Yea... Spellcrafting holds a lot of hope for people. I really hope they take it off the back burner before it's too late.

Something I think would be interesting for sorcs is to have ability morphs add different elemental effects. It's not the class design... but it would be interesting

Aeratus

Shunravi wrote: »

@Athas24, is this it? On the Utility of Shock Magic by Vanus Galerion?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Utility_of_Shock_Magic

He doesn't say ice and fire magics are not useable... Just that he finds lightning easier to form. This text is either dated or inaccurate, because he states one of the unique uses for shock magic he has found is to make a 'proximity mine' rune. The rune that does this comes from his own mages guild and is fire, not lightning. Also, 'lightning bolts can be cast at enemies in a number of variations.' Is also not exclusive to lightning spells in game. Heck, a DK can form fire into a whip and lash you with it.

Is there another I should look for? I love researching, so please say yes.

Interesting. By current standards, one would conclude that Vanus Galerion did crap dps.

Zabernat

Aeratus wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

@Athas24, is this it? On the Utility of Shock Magic by Vanus Galerion?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Utility_of_Shock_Magic

He doesn't say ice and fire magics are not useable... Just that he finds lightning easier to form. This text is either dated or inaccurate, because he states one of the unique uses for shock magic he has found is to make a 'proximity mine' rune. The rune that does this comes from his own mages guild and is fire, not lightning. Also, 'lightning bolts can be cast at enemies in a number of variations.' Is also not exclusive to lightning spells in game. Heck, a DK can form fire into a whip and lash you with it.

Is there another I should look for? I love researching, so please say yes.

Interesting. By current standards, one would conclude that Vanus Galerion did crap dps.

SO TRUE! Honestly I never like people that act like arrogant idiots and Vanus takes the cake.. I'm sure his dps sucks more than he realizes

Zabernat

Shunravi wrote: »

Yea... Spellcrafting holds a lot of hope for people. I really hope they take it off the back burner before it's too late.

Something I think would be interesting for sorcs is to have ability morphs add different elemental effects. It's not the class design... but it would be interesting

I was just talking with my roommate about that last night! I hope there's a future for 3 option morphs in the Sorcerer's lighting tree, one for each element. @ZOS_GinaBruno is that even a remote possibility?

Shunravi

Aeratus wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

@Athas24, is this it? On the Utility of Shock Magic by Vanus Galerion?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Utility_of_Shock_Magic

He doesn't say ice and fire magics are not useable... Just that he finds lightning easier to form. This text is either dated or inaccurate, because he states one of the unique uses for shock magic he has found is to make a 'proximity mine' rune. The rune that does this comes from his own mages guild and is fire, not lightning. Also, 'lightning bolts can be cast at enemies in a number of variations.' Is also not exclusive to lightning spells in game. Heck, a DK can form fire into a whip and lash you with it.

Is there another I should look for? I love researching, so please say yes.

Interesting. By current standards, one would conclude that Vanus Galerion did crap dps.

Yup.

Heck, it seems that if he managed to make a dancing lighning marionette construct, he would consider it a high acievement.

But jokes aside, it is an interesting bit of lore. It does seem to define a mindset before the conception of the schools of magic.

Rosveen

It's paticulaly funny when you realize that by the time of previous TES games, different elemental cloaks and runes will be discovered. I guess there was someone who understood flame and frost better than old Vanus.

Shunravi

I don't know if you would agree with me, but sorc spells seem to be a lot more about conjuration than destruction. Daedric summoning is of course summonng, and dark magic seems to be about conjuring crystals. Stormcalling is the only destruction magic line, and it has an offensive buff, a defensive buff, and a repositioning tool as three of it's five spells. The others are then an aoe and an execute. Of course, the ultimate is channeling lightning, but does that seem overly elementally destructive to you?

I wonder if ZOS would be opposed to elemental effects on the dark magic abilities? Like, you cast shard or encase or something, and it carries a small bit of an element with it. Of course... that could go against the feel they want for the class.

Zabernat

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't know if you would agree with me, but sorc spells seem to be a lot more about conjuration than destruction. Daedric summoning is of course summonng, and dark magic seems to be about conjuring crystals. Stormcalling is the only destruction magic line, and it has an offensive buff, a defensive buff, and a repositioning tool as three of it's five spells. The others are then an aoe and an execute. Of course, the ultimate is channeling lightning, but does that seem overly elementally destructive to you?

I wonder if ZOS would be opposed to elemental effects on the dark magic abilities? Like, you cast shard or encase or something, and it carries a small bit of an element with it. Of course... that could go against the feel they want for the class.

I would be much happier with that honestly, the only other places to get a little bit of the classic TES feel in terms of magic users is the mages guild skill tree. They could also expand that tree much like the undaunted tree was expanded a few updates ago. Either way I would love to see more open access to the destruction, alteration, restoration, etc.. trees within ESO. Whether through elemental effects being wrapped up into morphs or something else along that line

Shunravi

As per my last comment, it would seem ZOS made a choice between the lore based conjurer sorc and a more 'traditional' elemental sorc when it came to the dark magic line. Don't you think that the spells in dark magic could also be easily suited for frost magic? Heck, reskin them white and they would be frost spells. Somewhere along the line I think a choice was made for one or the other. Conjuration won.

Anvos

Well if you think about it much of the knowledge of Cyromancy was likely lost with the Falmer setting that art back and most powerful dunmer mages belong to house Telvani and house Telvani doesn't support the guild since their more about mage superiority and freedom from moral restrictions in research, thus the masters of pyromancy wouldn't be available to the guild.

Digiman

I am guessing they will add a these types to class skill lines in further DLC or expansions. 3 skill lines per class isn't necessarily going to stay that way.

Draehl

I'll probably see some disagreement here, but I've always thought frost would fit well on the NB. It would spread the elements between the classes, plus it does fit NB on a thematic level IE Shadowpriest/Dreadknight type archetypes commonly using frost magic. That being said, I can think of other options for a 4th NB skill line (such as a Spirit or Blood line with skills with strong benefits and strong drawbacks) whereas none really come to mind for Sorc besides frost...

KoRRoDEAD

I don't know whether this counts for anything but back in TES3:Morrowind, Fire spells cost less and were easier to cast then other destruction spells. Followed by Frost spells which were second easiest and still had relatively low magicka cost.

Lightning or "shock damage" spells were of the hardest and most costly destruction spells to cast along side Poison damage spells.

Zabernat

Digiman wrote: »

I am guessing they will add a these types to class skill lines in further DLC or expansions. 3 skill lines per class isn't necessarily going to stay that way.

True, although for sanity's sake I hope the future move's of the game will either be modifying existing class archetypes or by giving characters across the board new skill lines and not by adding new classes or giving each class 4+ special class skill lines.

Shunravi

Anvos wrote: »

Well if you think about it much of the knowledge of Cyromancy was likely lost with the Falmer setting that art back and most powerful dunmer mages belong to house Telvani and house Telvani doesn't support the guild since their more about mage superiority and freedom from moral restrictions in research, thus the masters of pyromancy wouldn't be available to the guild.

Well... maybe. That still doesn't account for the other fire and, to an admitedly lesser extent, frost spells ingame. Sorcerers, despite everyones assertions to the contrary, are not the mage class. They are a mage class. Same as all the others. I would consider my DragonKnight (and actually my templar too...) a pretty good pyromancer, and she's in the mages guild.

Digiman wrote: »

I am guessing they will add a these types to class skill lines in further DLC or expansions. 3 skill lines per class isn't necessarily going to stay that way.

They may add more... or they may introduce spellcrafting. We don't know.

Draehl wrote: »

I'll probably see some disagreement here, but I've always thought frost would fit well on the NB. It would spread the elements between the classes, plus it does fit NB on a thematic level IE Shadowpriest/Dreadknight type archetypes commonly using frost magic. That being said, I can think of other options for a 4th NB skill line (such as a Spirit or Blood line with skills with strong benefits and strong drawbacks) whereas none really come to mind for Sorc besides frost...

I agree that frost would go well with the dark/draining feel of the nightblade spells and the general Shadowpriest/Dreadknight theme. And it would definitely serve to round out the classes. But again, I also agree that other options could fit the nightblade spells, whereas having frost on sorcs would seem to fit better. That being said, I find it rather funny that either people are ignorant of the spells of other classes, or that other classes can be casters. like this guy who wanted to change the dark magic line into the nightblade siphoning line.

Holycannoli wrote: »

I would prefer the Dark Magic line have life leeches and DoTs over the useless skills nobody ever uses. I've never once seen Encase, Rune Prison or Daedric Mines used. They could ninja replace them and nobody would notice.

They could replace them with a life leech, a poison attack and maybe a disease-based DoT. To me those are proper "dark" type spells.

Who here would be opposed to replacing Encase, Rune Prison and Daedric Mines with a life leech, a poison attack and a disease DoT? My guess is nobody.

I'm aware Entropy is a life leech but it doesn't benefit from the Dark Magic passives.

Nothing against him... but that skill line already exists.

KoRRoDEAD wrote: »

I don't know whether this counts for anything but back in TES3:Morrowind, Fire spells cost less and were easier to cast then other destruction spells. Followed by Frost spells which were second easiest and still had relatively low magicka cost.

Lightning or "shock damage" spells were of the hardest and most costly destruction spells to cast along side Poison damage spells.

And a very good point as well. It should also be noted that the spell that the player often starts with in other games is a flame spell. While things could have changed drastically in the understanding of magic since these times, that is a good point to keep in mind.

But again, none of this explains why Sorcerers use specifically lightning spells. They are not the only mages. And clearly they are able to manipulate other elemental magics. It is a thematic choice as far as I can tell.