Concealed weapon - sneak attack (magicka weak in general)

Domander

Concealed weapon no longer has a sneak attack bonus, I assume because it's a "spell".

This makes no sense, and weakens this morph compared to the other.

Another thought, at this point why don't spells get a sneak attack bonus? What reason mechanically speaking is there for this?

I'd also like to know why magicka seems so weak compared to stamina, there are more spell resists than armor in the game (since light armor still gets a spell resist bonus and both medium and heavy now add to it) not to mention harness magicka and the lack of ability to sneak attack.

Berinima

Not to forget that it's a Nightblade Skill (the one morph that hasn't been robbed from us due to funky "balancing" ideas) and a sneak attack should be our speciality, no matter what. I feel that ZOS thinks our only speciality is being awful.

Maulkin

Melee spells should benefit from sneak attack bonuses too, imo. Ranged attacks of any kind should not, unless it's from bow. AoE attacks should never get stealth bonus irrespective of weapons/skill used.

I basically don't like how they gutted Magicka NB Assassins by the changes they made to Ambush and the sneak attack bonus on Concealed Weapon.

I've tried Lotus Fan for days and I find it vastly inferior to Ambush in every way. I think having a Magicka and a Stamina morph of Teleport Strike with similar bonuses would be nice. Base skill could grant Major Empower and the morphs could also grant an additional bonus like Minor Breach or Minor Sorcery for the magicka skill and the equivalent of those for the stamina morph.

People say having automatic choices is not a good thing, and to an extend I agree. But by making a morph stamina and the other magicka that choice is already automatic for you depending which resource your build is based around. So you might as well offer similar benefits.

Erondil

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Melee spells should benefit from sneak attack bonuses too, imo. Ranged attacks of any kind should not, unless it's from bow. AoE attacks should never get stealth bonus irrespective of weapons/skill used.

I basically don't like how they gutted Magicka NB Assassins by the changes they made to Ambush and the sneak attack bonus on Concealed Weapon.

I've tried Lotus Fan for days and I find it vastly inferior to Ambush in every way. I think having a Magicka and a Stamina morph of Teleport Strike with similar bonuses would be nice. Base skill could grant Major Empower and the morphs could also grant an additional bonus like Minor Breach or Minor Sorcery for the magicka skill and the equivalent of those for the stamina morph.

People say having automatic choices is not a good thing, and to an extend I agree. But by making a morph stamina and the other magicka that choice is already automatic for you depending which resource your build is based around. So you might as well offer similar benefits.

And a magicka surpise attack (reducing spell resist) would be nice too, even if its less important, its around 10% damages more. For DKs, unstable flame should be able to scale on magicka too.

Maulkin

Erondil wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Melee spells should benefit from sneak attack bonuses too, imo. Ranged attacks of any kind should not, unless it's from bow. AoE attacks should never get stealth bonus irrespective of weapons/skill used.

I basically don't like how they gutted Magicka NB Assassins by the changes they made to Ambush and the sneak attack bonus on Concealed Weapon.

I've tried Lotus Fan for days and I find it vastly inferior to Ambush in every way. I think having a Magicka and a Stamina morph of Teleport Strike with similar bonuses would be nice. Base skill could grant Major Empower and the morphs could also grant an additional bonus like Minor Breach or Minor Sorcery for the magicka skill and the equivalent of those for the stamina morph.

People say having automatic choices is not a good thing, and to an extend I agree. But by making a morph stamina and the other magicka that choice is already automatic for you depending which resource your build is based around. So you might as well offer similar benefits.

And a magicka surpise attack (reducing spell resist) would be nice too, even if its less important, its around 10% damages more. For DKs, unstable flame should be able to scale on magicka too.

Well if the magicka Ambush grants Minor/Major Breach as per my example then you already have that bonus from an Ambush + Concealed combo, plus getting the 20% speed from Concealed.

Tamanous

Keeps getting better. o.0

ZOS adds sneak bonus to spells yet no magic attack (including staff heavy) gains sneak crit bonus. What was the point of this again? An extra 5-10% damage? OMGPWNAGE!

Lotus Fan is now the magicka build only morph choice yet the spell has always sucked. Major balancing to many abilities in 1.6 but Lotus Fan has always been the worst spell in game (besides maybe Path of Darkness) and hasn't even been hinted by ZOS to be balanced.

Magicka based melee not being able to benefit from stealth opener should be a major game breaking problem yet I suspect ZOS will ignore this and not bother to communicate anything to us just like their other stealth nerfs this patch.

Maulkin

Path of Darkness and in particular Refreshing Path is a great spell o.O

Fantastic for drawing all aggro when tanking, nice damage and good AoE heals. Also brilliant for the movement speed bonus is great.

Now only if it gave immunity to roots while on the path

eliisra

Really hate how they slaughtered mele/assassin magicka based NB on PTS.

So Concealed has no sneak bonus now... what the hell? Also lost the gap closer. I'm supposed to use Lotus Fail now apparently. These stamina experiments are needed yes, but not by ruining current builds.

Out of all my classes, I feel my magicka NB has taken the hardest hit from current changes. Sub-par dmg output and severely lowered survivability. No class shield, to deal with current crazy numbers being dished out either. You will sort of need that or some frickin' viable heal, when you're in mele range in 1.6.

Than there's the fact that mele class skills gets eaten by Annulment. Ranged safe bow spam 50-meters away does not. Where is the logic? Feels like this is some sort of master plan to remove magicka mele builds from the game entirely lol. Choices now are basically full out stamina for actual dmg enough to cut through shield stack, or resto/destro ranged pewpew, spamming Healing Ward from a safe distance.

firewatch

ZOS just seems to be inept when it comes to balancing the game. For the longest time magicka builds were obviously superior. Then they nerf magicka builds into oblivion and make stamina builds op in 1.6. I don't know why they couldn't just leave the magicka builds alone and buff stamina a little so they were competitive. It's always one extreme or another with ZOS and you are almost forced to run the FOTM build to be competitive in end game content. This game has a long way to go. I just hope there are a few players left when they finally figure it out.

McDoogs

They should have created a third morph for a stamina option on skills they wanted to offer that for, not changing existing skills that people relied on and making them unusable without total build overhauls.

TheBull

I've been a stam NB so long. Since day one. Since then I've only been able to use a total of 2 NB skills in 3 slots. Fear and cloak basically that's it. I did used surprise for a couple months at the beginning of the game for the stun and impale with my snipe build back when snipe was a 2.5 second cast.

I'm very pleased with the opportunity to use some of my class skills in an offensive manner. You guys still don't have it nearly as bad us Stam NBs have had it for the past year. Heck we still can't use Swallow Soul... You guys will manage. Your NBs after all. We make more with less

Tamanous

TheBull wrote: »

I've been a stam NB so long. Since day one. Since then I've only been able to use a total of 2 NB skills in 3 slots. Fear and cloak basically that's it. I did used surprise for a couple months at the beginning of the game for the stun and impale with my snipe build back when snipe was a 2.5 second cast.

I'm very pleased with the opportunity to use some of my class skills in an offensive manner. You guys still don't have it nearly as bad us Stam NBs have had it for the past year. Heck we still can't use Swallow Soul... You guys will manage. Your NBs after all. We make more with less

It was never about not wanting stamina fixes. It is entirely about gutting magicka builds to do it.

Jice

You all do know you're not required to morph skills right? If you want a Magika High damage single target gap closer..DON'T MORPH IT!

The only thing you lose out on is the 20% damage on the next attack, but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks or better yet Entropy and get Both 20% magic damage AND 20% on the next cast.

If all you're worried about is heavy front end damage and closing the gap then just don't bother morphing. Hell, Entropy First then Ambush and it'll hurt them like hell and heal you for a bit. If you've got Cripple on them they shouldn't be getting away anyway.

Domander

Jice wrote: »

You all do know you're not required to morph skills right? If you want a Magika High damage single target gap closer..DON'T MORPH IT!

The only thing you lose out on is the 20% damage on the next attack, but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks or better yet Entropy and get Both 20% magic damage AND 20% on the next cast.

If all you're worried about is heavy front end damage and closing the gap then just don't bother morphing. Hell, Entropy First then Ambush and it'll hurt them like hell and heal you for a bit. If you've got Cripple on them they shouldn't be getting away anyway.

Entropy and sap essence are bonuses to damage and spell power, very different from 20% bonus to the next attack. I don't understand how this really relates to the OP, but there you go.

Samadhi

Domander wrote: »

Concealed weapon no longer has a sneak attack bonus, I assume because it's a "spell".
...

So if I slash a person from stealth with a dagger, it counts as a sneak attack.
But if I slash a person from stealth with a conjured dagger, it no longer counts as a sneak attack?
But if I conjure a similar dagger out of Stamina, it counts as a sneak attack and reduces the target's armour?

Tamanous wrote: »

...
Lotus Fan is now the magicka build only morph choice yet the spell has always sucked. Major balancing to many abilities in 1.6 but Lotus Fan has always been the worst spell in game (besides maybe Path of Darkness) and hasn't even been hinted by ZOS to be balanced.
...

As mediocre as it is...still prefer Lotus Fan over Agony.

Domander

Samadhi wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Concealed weapon no longer has a sneak attack bonus, I assume because it's a "spell".
...

So if I slash a person from stealth with a dagger, it counts as a sneak attack.
But if I slash a person from stealth with a conjured dagger, it no longer counts as a sneak attack?
But if I conjure a similar dagger out of Stamina, it counts as a sneak attack and reduces the target's armour?

Yep....

Jice

Domander wrote: »

Entropy and sap essence are bonuses to damage and spell power, very different from 20% bonus to the next attack. I don't understand how this really relates to the OP, but there you go.

You forget your passives. Entropy also adds 20% to the next spell cast by virtue of being a Mages guild spell. Might of the Guild: Grants Empower, just like Ambush, thus entropy give both spell power and 20% for next attack.

And it wasn't in response to OP but to people saying they Have to take Lotus fan now for a Magika build. They don't, they could just leave it alone and still get a high damage single target magika gap closer.

Domander

Jice wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Entropy and sap essence are bonuses to damage and spell power, very different from 20% bonus to the next attack. I don't understand how this really relates to the OP, but there you go.

You forget your passives. Entropy also adds 20% to the next spell cast by virtue of being a Mages guild spell. Might of the Guild: Grants Empower, just like Ambush, thus entropy give both spell power and 20% for next attack.

And it wasn't in response to OP but to people saying they Have to take Lotus fan now for a Magika build. They don't, they could just leave it alone and still get a high damage single target magika gap closer.

I know, and you did point it out in the previous post, I was referring more to the part saying " but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks". I guess you meant the bonus to both spell and weapon. I see what you're saying, but it just doesn't sit right with most players to lose out on a morph. I always used ambush specifically for the buff to the next attack.

I really wish they had just added these stamina morphs, I mean, why must these abilities have "2" morphs and only 2 morphs.

Jice

Domander wrote: »

I know, and you did point it out in the previous post, I was referring more to the part saying " but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks". I guess you meant the bonus to both spell and weapon. I see what you're saying, but it just doesn't sit right with most players to lose out on a morph. I always used ambush specifically for the buff to the next attack.

I really wish they had just added these stamina morphs, I mean, why must these abilities have "2" morphs and only 2 morphs.

Well if it's wishing about what could have been I would have likes to see 'morphs' not as better versions of spells but different options, so in the case of Teleport Strike, the base one would do the root and stun, Ambush would only add extra damage, and Lotus Fan would be Lotus Fan, that way there'd be three different ways to do a build to help reflect player diversity.

But for the way it is now, I feel Lotus Fan could use a bit of boosting, I know it's AoE and by a rule AoE damage is supposed to be lower damage, but the DoT seems so tacked on it just doesn't feel exciting or significant. An Area Knockdown would at least feel fun and wouldn't be any more broken than Volcanic Rune.

Domander

Jice wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I know, and you did point it out in the previous post, I was referring more to the part saying " but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks". I guess you meant the bonus to both spell and weapon. I see what you're saying, but it just doesn't sit right with most players to lose out on a morph. I always used ambush specifically for the buff to the next attack.

I really wish they had just added these stamina morphs, I mean, why must these abilities have "2" morphs and only 2 morphs.

Well if it's wishing about what could have been I would have likes to see 'morphs' not as better versions of spells but different options, so in the case of Teleport Strike, the base one would do the root and stun, Ambush would only add extra damage, and Lotus Fan would be Lotus Fan, that way there'd be three different ways to do a build to help reflect player diversity.

But for the way it is now, I feel Lotus Fan could use a bit of boosting, I know it's AoE and by a rule AoE damage is supposed to be lower damage, but the DoT seems so tacked on it just doesn't feel exciting or significant. An Area Knockdown would at least feel fun and wouldn't be any more broken than Volcanic Rune.

I think it's just lower up front damage, but made up for in the dot, but yeah it's lack luster for me. A knockdown would be interesting.

Fatalyis

I liked Lotus Fan when it benefited from sneak attack damage (and the stun). As of now, I've been rolling with a "suicide bomber" build that's been really fun.

Cast Detonation on self and Lotus Fan in. Cast Sap Essence or Impulse followed by Soul Tether. I can usually hit Soul Tether just as the Detonation goes off for a huge AoE burst. It's a lot of fun!

olemanwinter

Jice wrote: »

You all do know you're not required to morph skills right? If you want a Magika High damage single target gap closer..DON'T MORPH IT!

The only thing you lose out on is the 20% damage on the next attack, but if you're using Sap Essence you get 20% for all attacks or better yet Entropy and get Both 20% magic damage AND 20% on the next cast.

If all you're worried about is heavy front end damage and closing the gap then just don't bother morphing. Hell, Entropy First then Ambush and it'll hurt them like hell and heal you for a bit. If you've got Cripple on them they shouldn't be getting away anyway.

I really wanted to give this an "insightful" and a "lol", because you have a good point, but one that kind of misses the point of the OP.

TheBucket

Yea just dont morph.

Jice

olemanwinter wrote: »

I really wanted to give this an "insightful" and a "lol", because you have a good point, but one that kind of misses the point of the OP.

You should read a bit further down then since I addressed that it wasn't about the OP but all the people in the thread that seemed to believe they had to take Lotus Fan for a Magika Build.

ScruffyWhiskers

So what's the current state of this on PTS? Do Concealed weapon and Lotus fan get the stealth damage bonus and stun or not?

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

TheBull wrote: »

I've been a stam NB so long. Since day one. Since then I've only been able to use a total of 2 NB skills in 3 slots. Fear and cloak basically that's it. I did used surprise for a couple months at the beginning of the game for the stun and impale with my snipe build back when snipe was a 2.5 second cast.

I'm very pleased with the opportunity to use some of my class skills in an offensive manner. You guys still don't have it nearly as bad us Stam NBs have had it for the past year. Heck we still can't use Swallow Soul... You guys will manage. Your NBs after all. We make more with less

I feel you there.... but when you look at the skill bars of most classes in this game, how many of those slots in the skill bar are CLASS skills? Most skills slots are taken up by non class skills from weapons, guild lines, and armor lines.