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Magicka Sorcerers and end-game PvE
daemonios
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I know there are numerous threads complaining about Sorc performance in 1.6.x, but I wanted to get some hard numbers. This is a depiction of the current state of the live EU server, and a request that the concerns of players who play as sorcs be addressed.
I checked the leaderboards for trials in the live EU server (again). This is a summary of the top 10 teams for Weekly AA and Sanctum Ophidia, and the top 30 teams for DSA Vet:
Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.
In an ideal situation, each class would be close to 25% of each team. In reality, DKs make up almost half of each team, and sorcs are consistently underrepresented. 9 out of 30 teams in DSA Vet (roughly 1/3) had no sorcerers whatsoever (the only other class in this situation was NB, which was absent in 3 out of 30 teams).
There is a problem with sorcs right now. That problem is low sustained DPS in end-game PvE. It doesn't seem to be addressed in 1.6.x. In fact, 1.6 has nerfed some of the few skills that sorcs depend on to reach their (low) DPS or to be of particular use to the party beyond repair, namely Negate and Crushing Shock.
I haven't been able to test my sorc build in PTS as much as I'd like, but from my experience and the feedback in the forums, even the pet builds can't get close to other classes' DPS.
ZOS, you are killing an entire class. Please listen to the feedback. Please stop acting as if all that matters is PvP. Please acknowledge this issue and say what you expect of sorcs in 1.6.
I checked the leaderboards for trials in the live EU server (again). This is a summary of the top 10 teams for Weekly AA and Sanctum Ophidia, and the top 30 teams for DSA Vet:
Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.
In an ideal situation, each class would be close to 25% of each team. In reality, DKs make up almost half of each team, and sorcs are consistently underrepresented. 9 out of 30 teams in DSA Vet (roughly 1/3) had no sorcerers whatsoever (the only other class in this situation was NB, which was absent in 3 out of 30 teams).
There is a problem with sorcs right now. That problem is low sustained DPS in end-game PvE. It doesn't seem to be addressed in 1.6.x. In fact, 1.6 has nerfed some of the few skills that sorcs depend on to reach their (low) DPS or to be of particular use to the party beyond repair, namely Negate and Crushing Shock.
I haven't been able to test my sorc build in PTS as much as I'd like, but from my experience and the feedback in the forums, even the pet builds can't get close to other classes' DPS.
ZOS, you are killing an entire class. Please listen to the feedback. Please stop acting as if all that matters is PvP. Please acknowledge this issue and say what you expect of sorcs in 1.6.
16
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pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're lucky. This is fixed in 1.6 already.
BOOM!
But yeah, thank you for starting thread no. 953923 about Sorcs. You get a cookie.8 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorcerers are the highest ranged DPS and as such you will always need a couple of sorcerers since there will always be fights where you don't want your entire team in melee. Don't be surprised if you see 4-6 sorcs per trial team in the future.6 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorcerers are the highest ranged DPS and as such you will always need a couple of sorcerers since there will always be fights where you don't want your entire team in melee. Don't be surprised if you see 4-6 sorcs per trial team in the future.
Highest DPS with what exactly? I don't foresee the pet build as a viable option for DSA and Sanctum.
Spam Velocious Curse and Crystal Shards?Wololo.2 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorcerers are the highest ranged DPS and as such you will always need a couple of sorcerers since there will always be fights where you don't want your entire team in melee. Don't be surprised if you see 4-6 sorcs per trial team in the future.
Highest DPS with what exactly? I don't foresee the pet build as a viable option for DSA and Sanctum.
Spam Velocious Curse and Crystal Shards?
The pet build works perfectly well in Sanctum, pets do survive an entire stomp+spear phase easy on the Mantikora. Resummoning 2 times shouldn't be a problem imo.5 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
(which is 6 out of your 10 ability slots, since both pets have to be on both bars which is 4 slots, and empowered ward and daedric prey take up 2 more slots)
Im on the brink of canning my Sorc because the class is useless in high level end game PVE, yes i love to PVP, but i also like doing PVE too, and the PVP community has nerfed the Sorc to utter uselessness in PVE because they whine they can't catch a Bolt Escaping Sorc, or they whine they can't kill a shield stacking Sorc, they whine Negate is too powerful.
Reality is without Bolt Escape we would die easier then any other class, without Shield Stacking, we would be one shotted regularly, our Class doesn't have a single stinking instant cast Direct Damage ability or a class based Damage Over Time Ability...but don't tell that to the vocal minority that got Sorcs nerfed while hood winking ZOS into buffing Snipe to ridiculous levels that make it the easiest "noob toob" ever.
If your completely new to PVP and the game, you can easily have a 50-50 or better K/D by simply spamming Snipe at range out of reach from everyone.
Play any other class, you will be lucky to get 2-3 kills for every 10 or more deaths for awhile until you learn...Sorcs are the hardest class on live to be successful with in PVP because it requires you to become a Bolt Escape Artist(must be careful with resource management, 50% mana regen penalty and %50 cost increase for using it) along with subpar damage means you have to play out of your freaking mind and out kite and outsmart your opponents who for the most part can simply face roll their keyboard and tape down the right mouse button and kill you.
Im just waiting to see the Damage Shied Nerf that will be coming, I assure you Hardened Ward and the like will be nerfed before 1.6 goes live, and if it does, My Sorc will be shelved permanently...which is sad because all i ever wanted in this game was to play a Mage....The incoming Nerf to damage shields will be the final nail in the coffin for the Sorc class, one would only play a Sorc then if they like dying....
Sorcs have taken more nerfs with 1.6 then any other class.
They nerfed Surge
Nerfed Negate
Nerfed buffed pets before we even got the PTS
Nerfed Necropotence set
Nerfed Crushing Shock
Nerfed Light Armor
Nerfed Spell Penetration
Nerfed Spell Damage Enchants
Nearly every Nerf bat they have swung has directly effected Sorcs with the exception of other class specific ones...The Sorc has just been hammered with a barrage of nerf, after nerf, after nerf, it never ends with these people...it never ends.
I know a nerf to damage shields is coming, I can almost guarantee it. At that point, they might as well just remove the Sorc class from the game.
Just going by the damage numbers now, its obvious ZOS wants everyone to run a stamina build with either a bow or two handed...
This is why im leveling a Templar rolling two handed...because at this point...why not roll a Templar?
Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak15 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're lucky. This is fixed in 1.6 already.
BOOM!
But yeah, thank you for starting thread no. 953923 about Sorcs. You get a cookie.
Good that we need another year of large scale complaining to even come close to the rivers of tears NBs shed. And you know what? NB got what they wanted after all (well, some of it got taken away again...). Why wouldn`t we try?Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy4 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
No. My main weapon on live is bow and I sure can't find a build that can be competetive with sorcerers. I'd like to see this though, so please share this build that does significantly more (on the PTS of course).Mojomonkeyman wrote: »You're lucky. This is fixed in 1.6 already.
BOOM!
But yeah, thank you for starting thread no. 953923 about Sorcs. You get a cookie.
Good that we need another year of large scale complaining to even come close to the rivers of tears NBs shed. And you know what? NB got what they wanted after all (well, some of it got taken away again...). Why wouldn`t we try?
I've had a Nightblade since launch. Never complained. There are always good builds.Edited by pppontus on 12 February 2015 13:572 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
No. My main weapon on live is bow and I sure can't find a build that can be competetive with sorcerers. I'd like to see this though, so please share this build that does significantly more (on the PTS of course).
Well i have a guildy that can sustain 1200-1300 dps in trials with a Nightblade Bow and dual wield build on live. As i don't have a nightblade in PTS nor i live, I couldn';t tell you, the fact i have friends who can and post these DPS numbers from CLS/FTC all the time, i think its a fair assessment that this is possible. As far as i know, Bow has received no significant nerfs in 1.6 that im aware of, if it has, please enlighten me.
Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
No. My main weapon on live is bow and I sure can't find a build that can be competetive with sorcerers. I'd like to see this though, so please share this build that does significantly more (on the PTS of course).
Well i have a guildy that can sustain 1200-1300 dps in trials with a Nightblade Bow and dual wield build on live. As i don't have a nightblade in PTS nor i live, I couldn';t tell you, the fact i have friends who can and post these DPS numbers from CLS/FTC all the time, i think its a fair assessment that this is possible. As far as i know, Bow has received no significant nerfs in 1.6 that im aware of, if it has, please enlighten me.
This is exactly what I mean, you were just guessing. Bow has indeed received a significant nerf to the main DPS skill which is Snipe. I can do 1,4K on bow fairly easy on live, I can just about break 8k on the PTS.2 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeSorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
No. My main weapon on live is bow and I sure can't find a build that can be competetive with sorcerers. I'd like to see this though, so please share this build that does significantly more (on the PTS of course).
Well i have a guildy that can sustain 1200-1300 dps in trials with a Nightblade Bow and dual wield build on live. As i don't have a nightblade in PTS nor i live, I couldn';t tell you, the fact i have friends who can and post these DPS numbers from CLS/FTC all the time, i think its a fair assessment that this is possible. As far as i know, Bow has received no significant nerfs in 1.6 that im aware of, if it has, please enlighten me.
I had to laugh hard at that statement.https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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https://dwemerautomaton.com - Discord, Telegram & Twitch Command Bot2 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭
Because sorcerers are the only highest ranged magicka DPS class...
But I would like some actual answers from the combat lead as to the decisions behind these PTS changes. Is there something we are missing? Is he going to give us a 50% damage increase when the patch goes live?
Come 1.6 R.I.P Cloth wearing Destruction staff Sorcerers. Welcome forced into healing staff to get a job.1 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't understand this sentence. I mean, I understand each word in it, but not what you mean by putting them together.
Do you have any data to support your statement that sorcs are doing higher RDPS than NB's, Templars and DK's specced for RDPS, magicka or stamina? We haven't seen much of that sort of data, really.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
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Testing on the PTS done by me, guildmates and other sources found on the internets.
A short summary of what I have seen and can remember:
Any class (bow) 8k
Nightblade (destro) 9k
Templar (destro) 9k
DK not in melee (destro) 8k
Sorcerer (destro+1 pet) 11k
If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.Edited by pppontus on 12 February 2015 17:013 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
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I think he's referring to the Sorc "Derp build" that stacks gob tons of Magicka and both Pets then just stands there spamming 2 buttons for 15K DPS. Most other builds (including other Sorc builds) are having issues being consistent over 10K right now on PTS.I don't understand this sentence. I mean, I understand each word in it, but not what you mean by putting them together.
Do you have any data to support your statement that sorcs are doing higher RDPS than NB's, Templars and DK's specced for RDPS, magicka or stamina? We haven't seen much of that sort of data, really.Edited by DeLindsay on 12 February 2015 17:043 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.
It's not obections, just curiousity. I've not done any organized group content on PTS, and I've not seen any parses to show relative DPS.
I did see Nybling's post over at TF, and that looks impressive if you can rely on using an ultimate for the majority of your sustained DPS. He says he can, and he generally knows his business. Nonetheless, it surprised me.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.
It's not obections, just curiousity. I've not done any organized group content on PTS, and I've not seen any parses to show relative DPS.
I did see Nybling's post over at TF, and that looks impressive if you can rely on using an ultimate for the majority of your sustained DPS. He says he can, and he generally knows his business. Nonetheless, it surprised me.
Even if you remove ultimate and pets from the equation, at that point the sorc is pretty much equal to the other classes in ranged DPS, so both of those are just bonuses that put them ahead
But yeah, I think I'm gonna spend a lot of time on my Sorcerer after 1.6 hits.2 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
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Testing on the PTS done by me, guildmates and other sources found on the internets.
A short summary of what I have seen and can remember:
Any class (bow) 8k
Nightblade (destro) 9k
Templar (destro) 9k
DK not in melee (destro) 8k
Sorcerer (destro+1 pet) 11k
If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.
I don't see where you listed Sorcerer with NO Pets. Sorcs shouldn't have to slot a Pet to get decent DPS(IMO).NA Server - Kildair3 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
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Testing on the PTS done by me, guildmates and other sources found on the internets.
A short summary of what I have seen and can remember:
Any class (bow) 8k
Nightblade (destro) 9k
Templar (destro) 9k
DK not in melee (destro) 8k
Sorcerer (destro+1 pet) 11k
If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.
I don't see where you listed Sorcerer with NO Pets. Sorcs shouldn't have to slot a Pet to get decent DPS(IMO).
Well, you could make the point that a Nightblade shouldn't have to slot Crippling Grasp to do decent DPS .. etc. etc. It is what it is, you get the skills you're given. ^^
Anyway, sorc without pets is also roughly 8-9k afaik, haven't bothered myself as I'm interested in whether the builds are good, not if they include pets or not.
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DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭To add to what @pppontus posted, on PTS 7K DPS is roughly the equivalent to 1K DPS for Live 1.5.8. This is based on 1.6 scaling + Health of Bosses > timer of any burn phase/enrage. So anyone doing 8-9K is doing very good DPS in 1.6, over 10K and you are near the top of the pack. This is until we start seeing players really tune their new builds/gear choices and Champion Point FOTM builds.2 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭To add to what @pppontus posted, on PTS 7K DPS is roughly the equivalent to 1K DPS for Live 1.5.8. This is based on 1.6 scaling + Health of Bosses > timer of any burn phase/enrage. So anyone doing 8-9K is doing very good DPS in 1.6, over 10K and you are near the top of the pack. This is until we start seeing players really tune their new builds/gear choices and Champion Point FOTM builds.
Thanks, I forgot to mention that. 0 -
sput4ueb17_ESO✭✭✭Zos while creating the sorcerer i think they were thinking about the Hunter in wow ... and voila here is your new magicka hunter guys ... you can even have 2 pets out WTF OP !!!
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Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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@pppontus , @DeLindsay , that makes me feel better about the numbers I've been seeing then.To add to what @pppontus posted, on PTS 7K DPS is roughly the equivalent to 1K DPS for Live 1.5.8. This is based on 1.6 scaling + Health of Bosses > timer of any burn phase/enrage. So anyone doing 8-9K is doing very good DPS in 1.6, over 10K and you are near the top of the pack. This is until we start seeing players really tune their new builds/gear choices and Champion Point FOTM builds.
Thanks, I forgot to mention that.
So many things initially changed, was hard to tell. (Baseline was: If it dies before you do, success.)
It still feels all over the place for me, personally. Delves/Dolmen in Cyrodiil just kind of fall over when you walk in room, other things (Vet Group Dungeons, etc) require completely different approaches. (And this was without pets)
Are you relying on potions/regen/shielding for heals or outside sources, since Surge is null and void and Entropy yields only the small HoT.
I've had better luck single targetting down mobs vs AoE'ing much of anything thus far - just feels odd.
Thoughts?Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
Jaerlach✭✭✭Sorcs are not the highest ranged DPS...a Bow user with the right build can do significantly more. Sorcs only have viable DPS if they use 2 pets and both pet buffs
No. My main weapon on live is bow and I sure can't find a build that can be competetive with sorcerers. I'd like to see this though, so please share this build that does significantly more (on the PTS of course).
Well i have a guildy that can sustain 1200-1300 dps in trials with a Nightblade Bow and dual wield build on live. As i don't have a nightblade in PTS nor i live, I couldn';t tell you, the fact i have friends who can and post these DPS numbers from CLS/FTC all the time, i think its a fair assessment that this is possible. As far as i know, Bow has received no significant nerfs in 1.6 that im aware of, if it has, please enlighten me.
This is exactly what I mean, you were just guessing. Bow has indeed received a significant nerf to the main DPS skill which is Snipe. I can do 1,4K on bow fairly easy on live, I can just about break 8k on the PTS.
1200 for bow/dual isn't even particularly good.
Bow seems to have some issues on the pts.Jaerlach Kesepton (DK)
The 7th Vanguard
DC - NA first SO speed run & first Hardmode Speedrun
NA Record Vet DSA: 115192 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@pppontus , @DeLindsay , that makes me feel better about the numbers I've been seeing then.To add to what @pppontus posted, on PTS 7K DPS is roughly the equivalent to 1K DPS for Live 1.5.8. This is based on 1.6 scaling + Health of Bosses > timer of any burn phase/enrage. So anyone doing 8-9K is doing very good DPS in 1.6, over 10K and you are near the top of the pack. This is until we start seeing players really tune their new builds/gear choices and Champion Point FOTM builds.
Thanks, I forgot to mention that.
So many things initially changed, was hard to tell. (Baseline was: If it dies before you do, success.)
It still feels all over the place for me, personally. Delves/Dolmen in Cyrodiil just kind of fall over when you walk in room, other things (Vet Group Dungeons, etc) require completely different approaches. (And this was without pets)
Are you relying on potions/regen/shielding for heals or outside sources, since Surge is null and void and Entropy yields only the small HoT.
I've had better luck single targetting down mobs vs AoE'ing much of anything thus far - just feels odd.
Thoughts?
My wife and I experienced the same when trying out our characters on the PTS outside Cyrodil. We moved from a Delve to a Group Dungon because it was just too easy with NO CP either. We did the group dungeon without CP and died a few times but were still able to kill everything in there. We wouldn't have died at all but I wanted to see if it could be done with only using Regeneration and Combat Prayer which it could. Once we added the 70 CP it was a breeze to go through.NA Server - Kildair0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭
Because sorcerers are the only highest ranged magicka DPS class...
But I would like some actual answers from the combat lead as to the decisions behind these PTS changes. Is there something we are missing? Is he going to give us a 50% damage increase when the patch goes live?
Come 1.6 R.I.P Cloth wearing Destruction staff Sorcerers. Welcome forced into healing staff to get a job.
My nightblade (woodelf) pulls off more ranged magic-damage than my sorc (highelf). Plus I heal the whole group and my ult reduces DMG taken for my teammates.2 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Don't worry fellow sorcerers! This is all getting fixed in 1.6.3 with the Splash buff. We don't need negate anymore, just pets and splash. [/sarcasm]
In the meantime, I suggest you reroll another class if you want to do competitive PVE content.Wololo.3 -
A1exeR✭✭✭
Testing on the PTS done by me, guildmates and other sources found on the internets.
A short summary of what I have seen and can remember:
Any class (bow) 8k
Nightblade (destro) 9k
Templar (destro) 9k
DK not in melee (destro) 8k
Sorcerer (destro+1 pet) 11k
If you have any objections, I'm all ears as this is by no means 100% conclusive.
From another topic about sorc. Are you say something about 8k?Edited by A1exeR on 16 February 2015 14:033
