So I did a quick comparison...

DDuke

Darlgon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

I find this statement extremely arrogant. If you are the better player, you would not have zero chance.

You probably didn't watch the video then.
I can win against better players (ones using more than one skill & not accidentally hitting Windows key mid fight) just by spamming heavy attacks.

What prevents this from happening to me, when I'm on my "rogue" stamina NB, with zero heals/dmg shields?

DDuke

Vis wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

I find this statement extremely arrogant. If you are the better player, you would not have zero chance.

He builds a tank with only tank skills, set up with the super tanky 3600 "tank" points, and then wants everyone to admit he's a tank? What is the point? Haven't sorcs been nerfed enough already for you? Most nerf criers quit this game when they did not get what they wanted, and some quit because they got more nerfs than they bargained for.

Your 3600 cp build means nothing to me. Everyone is a tank of sorts at 3600 cp.

A tank? Do you know what a tank is, in most MMOs?

As for your "nerf criers", do you ever wonder why this game wasn't a big success, or why it's going P2W B2P?

Well, you have your answer.

Instead of being a good diverse MMO with depth & complex game mechanics, we have a one dimensional whack-a-mole of dmg shields.

Is it that surprising to you that most people don't find it entertaining?

Darlgon

Nm..

Just going to quote myself from this thread.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1538310/#Comment_1538310

Darlgon wrote: »

After numerous hours of reading threads on dueling...

Dueling only applies to duels. Not with "real" gaming unless it is only dueling, like Mortal Combat Online.

ESO features PVE and AvA, neither of which is a place for only one player to fight only one other player. Duelers claim that in Cyrodiil, you can have a one on one. Anyone else can and is allowed to come up and kill the opponent, sometimes to the outrage of the combatants, but that is how Cyrodiil is designed. In 10 months, I have had two fights one on one. The rest of the time, its either group battles, or someone ganked me as I rode by on my horse (no defense for me), or I shield-charged someone on thier siege (no defense or prep for them). Neither of which is dueling, which involved both parties being prepped and starting at a predetermined "Go".

Skills that pro "duelers" say are unbalanced and scream about in the forums get changed, because they scream about them. This leads to breakage in PVE or in AvA or both. Dueling should not be allowed to influence any development decisions.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Wow, I didn't even realise it was THAT bad. That shield better be fixed....

The issue has nothing to do with shields and everything to do with him fighting terribads and the fact 3600 champion points isn't balanced nor can it be balanced.

Getting insane bonuses to Magicka Regen, Heavy Attack Magicka returns, Magic Cost reduction, and Damage shields will ensure he never runs out of magicka with only 1-2 people beating on him.

A templar could do the exact same thing just spamming heals and heavy attacks without using shields at all.

I soloed a keep by myself last night with my 3600 points. Is it really worth discussing balance at all in this situation?

Yes, it is worth discussing balance when another person with 3600 points cannot kill a shield spammer (also with 3600 points).

Heavy Attacks weren't even required, I could just spam the shield non-stop without them, even when being attacked by 3 people.

And those 3 people (assuming they've 3600 points allocated) weren't able to kill me.

Of course you can brand anyone who can't kill a person with 2 hours experience with dmg shields "terribad", but that's not really a compelling argument.

Anyone that died to you *is* terribad, the problem is they burned all their resources attacking you instead of saving their resources like you did.

Anyone using defensive abilities and no real offensive spend can do this *on live* with the exception they can easily run out of stamina while the champion system prevents that from happening with you.

And that is exactly why these shields are too strong right now.

I should not be forced to use a freaking damage shield (or spam heals for that matter).

I'm playing a rogue character, I don't heal, I don't spam shields.
Should I be just AP fodder for shield spammers?
Or what if I wanted to play a heavy armour warrior, or a pure DPS mage.
Same scenario?

How can you find a game where everyone plays some ridiculous healer/shield mage spamming heavy attacks even remotely interesting?

Zero diversity.
Zero skill required.
Zero fun.

And if you look at the video, it's me who is the "terribad".

All I'm doing is spam heavy attack, while my opponent does skill rotations & CCs me etc.


Right now, I believe you are just blindly defending a broken concept, because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong.
My advice to you: admit you're wrong.

You missed the entire point. The game is scaled far out of a realistic scope and thus when considering extremes the balance scaling becomes more apparent. Defensive abilities are and have *always* been far more powerful than offensive ones and thus they will scale better.

In current the PTS with the characters copied over from live without the 3600 champion point bonus your "Rogue" build when played skillfully will have success against a shield stacker who plays as you do.

I don't know a skilled player in the game who can't fight someone almost indefinitely by dedicating all of their resources to defensive abilities and just turtling up *on live*. The fact that you killed someone while turtling just shows the people you were fighting were unskilled(terribads).

The way you choose to play is your own choice. Your desired playstyle will have great success against certain players and less success against others. It is no different with me.

I'm not blindly defending anything, I just have a larger grasp of the big picture and an understanding of game balance design.

Snit

DDuke wrote: »

You must not duel much then

I don't duel at all. I play RvR, and Cyrodiil is about team-based play to take objectives and increase your alliance's score. Four vs Four (or Forty vs Forty) is not One vs One upscaled.

As for your, "I can solo anything with this build," yeah -- you've got 3,600 CP. That is one to two years of character advancement. What you're uncovering is the fact that characters will scale up in power against NPC's that have not been adjusted.

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Wow, I didn't even realise it was THAT bad. That shield better be fixed....

The issue has nothing to do with shields and everything to do with him fighting terribads and the fact 3600 champion points isn't balanced nor can it be balanced.

Getting insane bonuses to Magicka Regen, Heavy Attack Magicka returns, Magic Cost reduction, and Damage shields will ensure he never runs out of magicka with only 1-2 people beating on him.

A templar could do the exact same thing just spamming heals and heavy attacks without using shields at all.

I soloed a keep by myself last night with my 3600 points. Is it really worth discussing balance at all in this situation?

Yes, it is worth discussing balance when another person with 3600 points cannot kill a shield spammer (also with 3600 points).

Heavy Attacks weren't even required, I could just spam the shield non-stop without them, even when being attacked by 3 people.

And those 3 people (assuming they've 3600 points allocated) weren't able to kill me.

Of course you can brand anyone who can't kill a person with 2 hours experience with dmg shields "terribad", but that's not really a compelling argument.

Anyone that died to you *is* terribad, the problem is they burned all their resources attacking you instead of saving their resources like you did.

Anyone using defensive abilities and no real offensive spend can do this *on live* with the exception they can easily run out of stamina while the champion system prevents that from happening with you.

And that is exactly why these shields are too strong right now.

I should not be forced to use a freaking damage shield (or spam heals for that matter).

I'm playing a rogue character, I don't heal, I don't spam shields.
Should I be just AP fodder for shield spammers?
Or what if I wanted to play a heavy armour warrior, or a pure DPS mage.
Same scenario?

How can you find a game where everyone plays some ridiculous healer/shield mage spamming heavy attacks even remotely interesting?

Zero diversity.
Zero skill required.
Zero fun.

And if you look at the video, it's me who is the "terribad".

All I'm doing is spam heavy attack, while my opponent does skill rotations & CCs me etc.


Right now, I believe you are just blindly defending a broken concept, because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong.
My advice to you: admit you're wrong.

You missed the entire point. The game is scaled far out of a realistic scope and thus when considering extremes the balance scaling becomes more apparent. Defensive abilities are and have *always* been far more powerful than offensive ones and thus they will scale better.

Highlighted what needs to change for this game to become balanced & for build diversity to exist.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

In current the PTS with the characters copied over from live without the 3600 champion point bonus your "Rogue" build when played skillfully will have success against a shield stacker who plays as you do.

Nope. The person attacking with 70 CP is proportionally weakened just as much as you (the shield stacker), and we're back in square one.
Basic maths, and I did test dmg shields in 1.6.1 as well, before any CPs were added.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I don't know a skilled player in the game who can't fight someone almost indefinitely by dedicating all of their resources to defensive abilities and just turtling up *on live*. The fact that you killed someone while turtling just shows the people you were fighting were unskilled(terribads).

Wait, didn't you just say above it'd be possible to kill a shield stacker?
That said, I'm fully aware how broken it is even on live.

Bad players beating good players just by spamming heavy attacks while stacking shields. Such skill, wow... where's the reaction speed, situational awareness, skillful combos?

Magnify this brokenness by 10, and you've got 1.6.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

The way you choose to play is your own choice. Your desired playstyle will have great success against certain players and less success against others. It is no different with me.

I'm not blindly defending anything, I just have a larger grasp of the big picture and an understanding of game balance design.

Except it has zero success against shield stackers, who have 100% success against everyone. Fair & balanced, sure...

And yes, you are just blindly defending broken game balance design.

I think the otter meme I posted well reflects the situation.

Pyatra

With the awesome Stamina based heal from the PvP skill line there is no real reason to go Magicka Sorc at end game other than shield and even then some mob attacks bypass the shields completely and you can get CC'ed in PvP.

This is what you get going Stamina Sorc:

• Higher DPS endgame
• Great survivability from blocking/roll dodging,
• Same sustainability resource wise as Magicka (not including Warlock)
• Huge but cheap AoE heal from PvP line that costs/based on Stamina
• Throw on the HoT from Momentum being more reliable than Surge
• Magicka Pool is still large enough to pop BoL or Encase 2-3 in rapid succession

My builds after much testing on PTS gave me a Stamina Sorc that did EVERYTHING better than a Magicka Sorc. I also only had the Armor toggle and 1 ultimate slot that were class skills. Both bars, only 2 sorc skills. My DPS sustained for 70CP was around 14k and that wasn't even pushing it to the limits AND I had 30 points in Health plus the Mundus stone, so it wasn't a full glass cannon. Even at upping it to 3600CP Stamina build exceeded.

DDuke

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You must not duel much then

I don't duel at all. I play RvR, and Cyrodiil is about team-based play to take objectives and increase your alliance's score. Four vs Four (or Forty vs Forty) is not One vs One upscaled.

As for your, "I can solo anything with this build," yeah -- you've got 3,600 CP. That is one to two years of character advancement. What you're uncovering is the fact that characters will scale up in power against NPC's that have not been adjusted.

For me, Cyrodiil is about 1v1 & 1vX. Why should it be about rolling in a zerg train spamming AoEs & dmg shields? Many people don't find that fun

Good thing they're implementing Battlegrounds "soon" (confirmed in ESO Live a couple weeks ago), maybe the game will become skill based at last, instead of who got the bigger train.

Snit

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

I'd agree that everything should be balanced around 1v1 first.. if it's balanced 1v1 then in most cases it will translate into XvX

With the caveat that I don't duel, I would ask whether you find the following skills to be the dominant meta in duels:

- Impulse
- Wall of Elements
- Negate Magic
- Reflecting Scales
- Standard of Might
- Barrier
- War Horn
- Rapid Manuever
- Regeneration
- Healing Springs
- Combat Prayer
- Bat Swarm

That is a decent (if incomplete) list of the skills with the biggest influence on AvA. Most of them are about "how my ten guys kill your ten guys (or your twenty)." Proper usage of that list, along with siege weaponry, determines most of the battles in Cyrodiil.

I am sure there is some overlap with what works in duels. I suspect it's not total.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This is pretty much every fight I've come across in PTS (where I don't get hit by 132k Silver Bolt or 98k Razor Caltrops)

You're running a build with four toggles, which is simultaneously the tankiest and the least useful sorc build possible. The only thing this build is good at is outlasting people.

If your focus is one vs one balance in duels, I understand this is a big deal. And that's part of the disconnect -- many of us are focused on team vs team PvP, not duels. Your build offers no burst damage, no crowd control, no heals, no utility. Nothing. You're just a hard *** to kill.

If this build became the meta for sorcs, I'd quit, too Running a four-toggle build, spamming shields while waiting for your pets to slowly whittle the other guy down would be a miserable playstyle, and I'd be adding almost nothing to my group. That's why I suspect exactly nobody will run it, other than those who want to gather up and duel.

But, kudos -- this is a pretty clever tanky duel build for sorcs. I'm sure you can put together an unkillable block-based guild for DK's or Templars, too, if you put your mind to it.

ersity")

Why do you think I haven't released any new PvP videos for over 5 months?

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

Most players have other players and builds that can't be beaten and it has nothing to do with being the "Better player". Part of being a skilled player is recognizing when to engage and when to withdraw as well as knowing the right time to attack.

There is very much a paper scissors rock meta in this game and you seem to be unhappy that there is too many rocks and not enough paper for your scissors....if that made any sense.

sput4ueb17_ESO

this is not a fight is a nightmare ... redesign is the option imo

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This is pretty much every fight I've come across in PTS (where I don't get hit by 132k Silver Bolt or 98k Razor Caltrops)

You're running a build with four toggles, which is simultaneously the tankiest and the least useful sorc build possible. The only thing this build is good at is outlasting people.

If your focus is one vs one balance in duels, I understand this is a big deal. And that's part of the disconnect -- many of us are focused on team vs team PvP, not duels. Your build offers no burst damage, no crowd control, no heals, no utility. Nothing. You're just a hard *** to kill.

If this build became the meta for sorcs, I'd quit, too Running a four-toggle build, spamming shields while waiting for your pets to slowly whittle the other guy down would be a miserable playstyle, and I'd be adding almost nothing to my group. That's why I suspect exactly nobody will run it, other than those who want to gather up and duel.

But, kudos -- this is a pretty clever tanky duel build for sorcs. I'm sure you can put together an unkillable block-based guild for DK's or Templars, too, if you put your mind to it.

ersity")

Why do you think I haven't released any new PvP videos for over 5 months?

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

Most players have other players and builds that can't be beaten and it has nothing to do with being the "Better player". Part of being a skilled player is recognizing when to engage and when to withdraw as well as knowing the right time to attack.

There is very much a paper scissors rock meta in this game and you seem to be unhappy that there is too many rocks and not enough paper for your scissors....if that made any sense.

And what would be the paper to the rocks of dmg shield spam?

Oh right, there isn't any

The reason there are so many "rocks" (75% of people using them), is because there isn't a counter to it, while it counters everything (except getting significantly outnumbered).

Regardless, if you look at games like WoW (note: my experiences are from vanilla/TBC), every class has a good chance of beating other class. There are no "impossibles" & skill matters the most when it comes to Player vs Player encounters.
Note: WoW as an example is far from a skill based game due to tab targeting etc, but still more so than ESO currently.

Stop looking at the extremes, there's a way for multiple playstyles to be viable in PvP, not just "spam shields/heals".

Vis

DDuke wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

I find this statement extremely arrogant. If you are the better player, you would not have zero chance.

Reasons more people laugh at him than anything else. He builds a tank with only tank skills, set up with the super tanky 3600 "tank" points, and then wants everyone to admit he's a tank? What is the point? His only point is to take other classes to their extreme to get more nerfs. Haven't sorcs been nerfed enough already for you? DDuke may be one of the last uber dedicated nerf criers left these days. Most nerf criers quit this game when they did not get what they wanted, and some quit because they got more nerfs than they bargained for.

Your 3600 cp build means nothing to me. Everyone is a tank of sorts at 3600 cp.

A tank? Do you know what a tank is, in most MMOs?

As for your "nerf criers", do you ever wonder why this game wasn't a big success, or why it's going P2W B2P?

Well, you have your answer.

Instead of being a good diverse MMO with depth & complex game mechanics, we have a one dimensional whack-a-mole of dmg shields.

Let me enlighten you on a little industry secret:

Players most often quit when their own class is nerfed.

You can take that to the bank.

It's rare for someone to say:
"Xyz class is so powerful and mine has not changed ... I quit!"

More common is:
"Xyz class is so powerful, I am going to roll one too."

Now, on the other hand, when devs nerf a class the incentive to reroll is not as great:
"My class has been nerfed. I should maybe reroll. BUT devs in this game are so willing to nerf people. What is to stop them from nerfing my re-roll once I invested so much time into it? This game makes me feel powerless to changes. I quit!"

When you nerf instead of buffing, you build resentment in your player base. Nerf criers like yourself, create a hostile and toxic environment where instead of all of us discussing ways to build each other's enjoyment, all we do is to try to rob the little the other has. It's a very uncreative and bitter attitude to have. I am open to give and take, but you're just asking for take take take.

In short ... threads like this kill MMOs more than any other element.

Ezareth

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

I'd agree that everything should be balanced around 1v1 first.. if it's balanced 1v1 then in most cases it will translate into XvX, if it doesn't then that is when you start tweaking things.

That may be true on it's head but it also deemphasizes the XvX and homogenizes every player and class into the same boring garbage.

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

It kind of is the meta already for many

I have trouble accepting this statement. Many? I've literally never seen anyone run a sorc with no attack spells on their bar, no heals, no group-friendly utility spells.

I agree with you that this is an awful build to fight against, but it would be awful to play, too. It's ineffective at everything that's actually important in Cyrodiil (taking objectives through team-based play).

You're thinking about PvP. I'm focused on RvR. You're saying that, if a sorc piles up every survival-based tactic, they're extremely hard to kill. I agree, but I'm saying 98% of us will be relying on a small subset of those skills, as we also need to do useful stuff. Yet, we still need that small subset to give us reasonably survivability, or we're as useless to our team as your build is

It's like the idiot in the alliance war forum offering 50K gold to people who can beat him while he is using his DK sit and hold block pure defensive build. He can't kill them yet can't be killed. It proves nothing. The game would not be balanced if such a build didn't exist.

This isn't a FPS.

DDuke wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

It kind of is the meta already for many

I have trouble accepting this statement. Many? I've literally never seen anyone run a sorc with no attack spells on their bar, no heals, no group-friendly utility spells.

You must not duel much then. Regardless, this build works even without Magelight for instance (feel free to replace with Crystal Frags). Shield will be 2k~ weaker but eh... who cares, still unbreakable.

Again, this is not a sorc problem. I can build a similar "unkillable" build with Templar & Blazing Shield...

Snit wrote: »

I agree with you that this is an awful build to fight against, but it would be awful to play, too. It's ineffective at everything that's actually important in Cyrodiil (taking objectives through team-based play).

I can solo a keep with this build & tank every single NPC at a resource, or make 2-3 people get bored when they try to kill me, and if they don't have heals my pets will kill them eventually.
Too ineffective for your taste? Again, feel free to replace one skill with Crystal Frags, it'll still be impossible to kill you.

Snit wrote: »

You're thinking about PvP. I'm focused on RvR. You're saying that, if a sorc piles up every survival-based tactic, they're extremely hard to kill. I agree, but I'm saying 98% of us will be relying on a small subset of those skills, as we also need to do useful stuff. Yet, we still need that small subset to give us reasonably survivability, or we're as useless to our team as your build is

News for you: PvP is RvR. PvP is 1v1, PvP is 1vX & PvP is XvX.

In every single regard, damage shields are overpowered.

1v1, player without dmg shield? Well, consult my video.
1vX, player without dmg shield? Dead. Find me one video of a good PvPer that doesn't spam shields and/or heals.
XvX, player without dmg shield? Dead in 2 seconds once the zerg train closes in.

How is this balanced, in any regard? Choice is obvious: slot a dmg shield & survive, or don't slot it & die.

You don't really understand what you're asking for.

Of course every good 1vX player uses shields and heals. The alternative is they are somehow able to kill multiple people all at once with purely offensive abilities. TTK on everyone in PvP would be far too low in the scenario you seem to be suggesting.

It just seems to me that you're unhappy with your NB class and unable to cope with a changing Meta. I could suggest some skilled NBs who are able to work around the issues you're arguing again, but you have less interest in learning and more interest in broadcasting and divesting your opinion to the rest of us than opening your mind.

Vis

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

That may be true on it's head but it also deemphasizes the XvX and homogenizes every player and class into the same boring garbage.

Nailed it!

The only true way to be equal is to be equivalent.

That is the eventual end result of pure balance based on duels. It destroys the "ROLE" in RPG.

TheBucket

Dracane wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

I saw a mentioning of Sypher with a Nightblade build.

Is it a crazy wild guess to assume this build will rely on a resto staff to create damage shields, perhaps in combination with the light armor active?

If this is not the case, I'd love to see his build.
If this is the case, it does kind of proof that damage absorption shields are pretty much the way to go?

No matter from which point of view: You must use damage shields as a light armor user to sustain. Or you're going to be 1 or 2 shotted.

Everyone else does not necessarily need it. Maybe at the beginning when 1.6 goes online. But after a few weeks, maybe months, they are able to block forever and can forget about damage shields and use the Magicka to heal themselves or such things.

But light armor users rely on damage shields. Or like Sypher: Simply cloak if danger is incoming (crystal shard or whatever)

Most of the things you are saying is basically defending shields. Which is fine.. I'm just curious since I haven't been on the PTS lately. Frags use to hit you even after you cloak. Is that not the case now?

Vis

TheBucket wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

I saw a mentioning of Sypher with a Nightblade build.

Is it a crazy wild guess to assume this build will rely on a resto staff to create damage shields, perhaps in combination with the light armor active?

If this is not the case, I'd love to see his build.
If this is the case, it does kind of proof that damage absorption shields are pretty much the way to go?

No matter from which point of view: You must use damage shields as a light armor user to sustain. Or you're going to be 1 or 2 shotted.

Everyone else does not necessarily need it. Maybe at the beginning when 1.6 goes online. But after a few weeks, maybe months, they are able to block forever and can forget about damage shields and use the Magicka to heal themselves or such things.

But light armor users rely on damage shields. Or like Sypher: Simply cloak if danger is incoming (crystal shard or whatever)

Most of the things you are saying is basically defending shields. Which is fine.. I'm just curious since I haven't been on the PTS lately. Frags use to hit you even after you cloak. Is that not the case now?

Not anymore. Cloak will cause you to auto-dodge the frag (on the current PTS build at least). Though something good to know, you can continue casting the bomb from the pvp line and it will still go off with a person in cloak.

TheBucket

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Mmmh. You haven't take any player controls, and you weren't able to perform any real dps. So… a sorc who do that is totally useless, and you weren't hit on your weakness.
And the other player don't attack you at all. I can easily survive against a pack of ncp too, without any skill needed. But against a good player, that's not the same thing.

I'm going to go solo some groups of vet mobs and show you just how OP my shields are in PvP. /sarcasm

Seriously though.. Can we get some real tests in here? 1v1 will NEVER be balanced in a game with a low skill ceiling(which eso has). Therefore, it must be balanced around group play(which takes way more skill than making the best "you can't kill me" dueling build).

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

I was always under the impression that dodgeroll was incredibly powerful in terms of dmg mitigation against multiple people. Far more potent than shields (in fact i saw a video of someone dodgerolling the attacks of an entire raid for a good 20 seconds - try that one with shields). Seems like a fair tradeoff?

Ahahah... no.

There's a period of time after dodge roll when you can take damage. Time your attacks right & you'll hit your target every single time.

Also, it suffers from the same kind of a bug as cloak does.
If you have multiple people attacking you & you decide to dodge roll, you evade only one or two attacks while the other 27 hit you & you're dead in a second, unable to do anything while in the dodge roll state, and any stamina build can attest to that.

That said, a skilled stamina build can avoid the attacks of one person by timing his/her dodge rolls to the opponent's attack rhythm (though it doesn't help against channeled abilities or DoT ticks).

I can usually dodge roll every attack. This must be new in PTS because I was able to dodge roll multiple attacks.

Snit

DDuke wrote: »

For me, Cyrodiil is about 1v1 & 1vX. Why should it be about rolling in a zerg train spamming AoEs & dmg shields? Many people don't find that fun

I usually roll in a group of four to ten. I don't consider that a zerg, but opinions differ. I do join the groups of 40 sometimes. The massive keep sieges are something no other MMO really gets right, and they're a lot of fun (when they don't lag out, anyway).

As to why the group stuff is important? Simple -- scoreboard. The people grouped up in RvR are the ones who determine the winner. The people gathered dueling have no effect on the war as a whole. In addition, those 'zergs' are where most of the players (aka 'customers') are.

That's not meant to be an insult -- I recognize than duels are skilled play, and you should be doing what's fun for you. But I don't think the rest of the game should be balanced around duels.

DDuke

TheBucket wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Mmmh. You haven't take any player controls, and you weren't able to perform any real dps. So… a sorc who do that is totally useless, and you weren't hit on your weakness.
And the other player don't attack you at all. I can easily survive against a pack of ncp too, without any skill needed. But against a good player, that's not the same thing.

I'm going to go solo some groups of vet mobs and show you just how OP my shields are in PvP. /sarcasm

Seriously though.. Can we get some real tests in here? 1v1 will NEVER be balanced in a game with a low skill ceiling(which eso has). Therefore, it must be balanced around group play(which takes way more skill than making the best "you can't kill me" dueling build).

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

I was always under the impression that dodgeroll was incredibly powerful in terms of dmg mitigation against multiple people. Far more potent than shields (in fact i saw a video of someone dodgerolling the attacks of an entire raid for a good 20 seconds - try that one with shields). Seems like a fair tradeoff?

Ahahah... no.

There's a period of time after dodge roll when you can take damage. Time your attacks right & you'll hit your target every single time.

Also, it suffers from the same kind of a bug as cloak does.
If you have multiple people attacking you & you decide to dodge roll, you evade only one or two attacks while the other 27 hit you & you're dead in a second, unable to do anything while in the dodge roll state, and any stamina build can attest to that.

That said, a skilled stamina build can avoid the attacks of one person by timing his/her dodge rolls to the opponent's attack rhythm (though it doesn't help against channeled abilities or DoT ticks).

I can usually dodge roll every attack. This must be new in PTS because I was able to dodge roll multiple attacks.

Nope, happens on live as well. Try rolling away from a zerg train... doesn't happen (not saying it should either)

I also posted a video about when you're vulnerable after roll dodge.

Very few people know how to utilize that weakness, and instead just do what they're doing 99% of time anyway: spam skills non-stop (not readjusting their attack rhythm to the gap between roll dodges).
In 1vX situations, it usually inevitably happens however (as people attack you at different times).

Snit wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

For me, Cyrodiil is about 1v1 & 1vX. Why should it be about rolling in a zerg train spamming AoEs & dmg shields? Many people don't find that fun

I usually roll in a group of four to ten. I don't consider that a zerg, but opinions differ. I do join the groups of 40 sometimes. The massive keep sieges are something no other MMO really gets right, and they're a lot of fun (when they don't lag out, anyway).

As to why the group stuff is important? Simple -- scoreboard. The people grouped up in RvR are the ones who determine the winner. The people gathered dueling have no effect on the war as a whole. In addition, those 'zergs' are where most of the players (aka 'customers') are.

That's not meant to be an insult -- I recognize than duels are skilled play, and you should be doing what's fun for you. But I don't think the rest of the game should be balanced around duels.

Except it is isn't balanced in XvX situations either.
There's a good reason why most people have a dmg shield on their bar.
A person without one = dead in 2 seconds, a person with one = dead in 20 seconds (not accurate numbers, just to illustrate the difference).

Vis wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't find it fun playing against people whom I have 0% chance of winning, despite being the better player.

I find this statement extremely arrogant. If you are the better player, you would not have zero chance.

Reasons more people laugh at him than anything else. He builds a tank with only tank skills, set up with the super tanky 3600 "tank" points, and then wants everyone to admit he's a tank? What is the point? His only point is to take other classes to their extreme to get more nerfs. Haven't sorcs been nerfed enough already for you? DDuke may be one of the last uber dedicated nerf criers left these days. Most nerf criers quit this game when they did not get what they wanted, and some quit because they got more nerfs than they bargained for.

Your 3600 cp build means nothing to me. Everyone is a tank of sorts at 3600 cp.

A tank? Do you know what a tank is, in most MMOs?

As for your "nerf criers", do you ever wonder why this game wasn't a big success, or why it's going P2W B2P?

Well, you have your answer.

Instead of being a good diverse MMO with depth & complex game mechanics, we have a one dimensional whack-a-mole of dmg shields.

Let me enlighten you on a little industry secret:

Players most often quit when their own class is nerfed.

You can take that to the bank.

It's rare for someone to say:
"Xyz class is so powerful and mine has not changed ... I quit!"

More common is:
"Xyz class is so powerful, I am going to roll one too."

Now, on the other hand, when devs nerf a class the incentive to reroll is not as great:
"My class has been nerfed. I should maybe reroll. BUT devs in this game are so willing to nerf people. What is to stop them from nerfing my re-roll once I invested so much time into it? This game makes me feel powerless to changes. I quit!"

When you nerf instead of buffing, you build resentment in your player base. Nerf criers like yourself, create a hostile and toxic environment where instead of all of us discussing ways to build each other's enjoyment, all we do is to try to rob the little the other has. It's a very uncreative and bitter attitude to have. I am open to give and take, but you're just asking for take take take.

In short ... threads like this kill MMOs more than any other element.

Wow, thanks for the laugh

This thread (and you Sorcs) never fail to deliver.

Balancing damage shields to the same strength as other abilities affects everyone, not just "your class".

Before you start crying "oh, but it affects Sorcs more QQ": I have a 2H Heavy Armour Sorc that is perfectly capable of taking down any non-shield spammer & I will be creating PvP videos with him after 1.6, if these dmg shield issues don't go into live (making that build an impossibility, much like anything else without dmg shield).

If anything, it'd make multiple builds more viable & encourage people to play something else than dmg shield spammer (75% of players), contributing to the overall diversity of PvP builds & making Cyrodiil more fun.

MrGhosty

I wish people would stop demanding nerfs to everything. If you have an issue with a skill offer potential buffs to bring things closer into line, unless PvP gets separated from PvE and they each have their own stats (won't happen) everytime you try to balance something because you feel like dropping a gauntlet while everyone else is busying contributing to the overall fight there are unintended consequences that break people's builds who have never set foot in Cyro and don't care about the dmg shield "problem".

I may have a unique perspective as I've spent most of my time in Cyro being lower leveled, but I learned early on with my NB that there are times to fight and there are times to run away. Running away and vanishing is our shield.

With my vamp NB I could keep pace alongside a zerg in stealth and just bide my time until I found some tasty prey to pick off. As time has gone on I recognized some issues with my build in relation to the sort of performance I wanted so I changed my skills.

I actually have nothing against duels, I've asked for a dedicated location as I love dueling against my guildies but I would never think that skills need to be balanced against that experience. There is a counter to everything in this game, and (for me personally) the enjoyment comes from working out a good counter to a problem that perplexed me for some time. My counter to shield turtles is to leave them on their own holding block and wait until their guard drops. Barring that I'll hit them every so often just to remind them that I'm out there and then sit and giggle to myself as they start throwing out AOEs trying to burst my stealth.

My challenge to you good sir would be that if you feel shields are a threat to the meta, come up with some actual solutions that we as a community can discuss and refine instead of yelling nerf. Nerfing is a lazy solution and nobody wins in the long run.

Lied

Blazing shield gets a cost increase: Hmm, OK
Biting jabs gets a damage decrease and CC immunity: Alright
Crushing shock gets a damage decrease: OMG ZOS YOU HATE SORCS SO MUCH WTF ARE YOU DOING TO YOUR GAME

I know shield stacking is relevant to all classes, but if I didn't know better I'd swear not all classes bi*** equally. Nerf my primary class all over the place on PTS. I'd be much more apprehensive of this magnitude of change if it went straight to live without significant tweaking in every area. What are the odds that they got it all right on paper?

Besides, if someone knows so much about the game that they can definitively say what should/shouldn't be tweaked then I'm sure they can rub some dirt on the nerf and play through it.

DDuke

MrGhosty wrote: »

My challenge to you good sir would be that if you feel shields are a threat to the meta, come up with some actual solutions that we as a community can discuss and refine instead of yelling nerf. Nerfing is a lazy solution and nobody wins in the long run.

Ok. How about this: make skills like Surprise Attack deal 20k damage (non-crit, as shields aren't crittable), in order to make them able to bypass shields for the same cost as casting one.

Any other solutions?


The issue here is that certain defensive abilities are grossly overpowered in PTS, and unless you want to bring offensive ones in line with them (with all the PvE implications that'd have), you'll have to nerf them.

If you don't think they are overpowered, please consult the numbers on my original post, or see the video I posted.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You can. If you´re lucky to hit the 0.2 seconds between dodgerolls where he has a passive evasion buff up.

Actually, it is one second (I analyzed it frame by frame on my own PvP footage), and luck has nothing to do with it

It is literally impossible to be 1s time between two dodgerolls. I can perform 3 dodgerolls in 3 seconds while the animation takes about 0.8 seconds (and i am able to do so a 100 times in a row if my stamina would last for that many dodgerolls).
With your timing either a dodgroll would animate in 0.2 (edit: with your timing the dodgeroll would have no animation at all - whoops) seconds or it would take me 4.4 seconds to perform three dodgerolls.

Maybe your frametimes are off.

I can log into the game and perform dodgerolls back to back and i am able do a dodgeroll every second. I don´t know why your char is not able to do so. Its either a user error, game error, hardware error on your side or you´re doing it on purpose.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You can. If you´re lucky to hit the 0.2 seconds between dodgerolls where he has a passive evasion buff up.

Actually, it is one second (I analyzed it frame by frame on my own PvP footage), and luck has nothing to do with it

It is literally impossible to be 1s time between two dodgerolls. I can perform 3 dodgerolls in 3 seconds while the animation takes about 0.8 seconds.
With your timing either a dodgroll would animate in 0.2 (edit: with your timing the dodgeroll would have no animation at all - whoops) seconds or it would take me 4.4 seconds to perform three dodgerolls.

Maybe your frametimes are off.

I can log into the game and perform dodgerolls back to back and i am able do a dodgeroll every second. I don´t know why your char is not able to do so. Its either a user error, game error, hardware error on your side or you´re doing it on purpose.

Want to test it? I can log on my EP/AD character and hit you while you're dodge rolling

Snit

DDuke wrote: »

Except it is isn't balanced in XvX situations either.
There's a good reason why most people have a dmg shield on their bar.
A person without one = dead in 2 seconds, a person with one = dead in 20 seconds (not accurate numbers, just to illustrate the difference).

Your video was not "a person with a dmg shield on their bar." Your video was a 3,600 CP character dedicated completely to damage mitigation, including a shield, at the expense of everything else (burst damage, heals, cc, utility), playing against unorganized players who do not focus fire or make effective use of CC.

From that, you concluded that damage shields render people immortal and AvA unfun.

OK.

Ace_SiN

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

Digiman

DDuke wrote: »

PTS Templates, one is a Breton Sorc with all points in magicka, another an Imperial NB with all points in stamina. Both have 3600 CPs allocated.

Sorc is wearing light armour template gear, while NB is wearing the medium one.





Harnened Ward=1953 magicka, 17792 dmg shield
Surprise Attack=1502 stamina, 6020 dmg
Soul Harvest=Ultimate, 9929 dmg

Amount of resources it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks (4506 stamina) or Soul Harvest (ulti)+2 Surprise Attacks (3004 stamina)

Amount of time it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks = 3,9 seconds minimum, Soul Harvest+2 Surprise Attacks=3,9 seconds minimum

If you don't happen to be NB, but are using DW: 4 Flying Blades, 5056 Stamina, 5,2 seconds.

To add to my findings, I managed to reach 1338 magicka regen with my template character wearing 7/7 Aether etc, which means I could refresh the shield every 2,6 seconds without ever going below 100% magicka .


Can anyone else see the problem?


Here's how balanced PvP currently is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAfb5V5zjo

Note how I'm using a template character, no potions & I stay at 100% magicka.

I kill my opponent by heavy attacking alone, and this is the second time I play with a dmg shield (complete shield noob here).

This has been the case in pretty much every fight in PTS, where I don't get one shot by 132k Silver Bolts or 88k Razor Caltrops.

All I saw was a 4 min video of you failing to kill a templer even with pets with full health except for 1:23 where your shield failed and in 1 hit got taken down to near death before you broke out of CC and replied ward.

Ace_SiN

Digiman wrote: »

All I saw was a 4 min video of you failing to kill a templer even with pets with full health except for 1:23 where your shield failed and in 1 hit got taken down to near death before you broke out of CC and replied ward.

Another good point.. Do you guys see how low the TTK is? Nerfing shields is NOT an easy no brainer solution. The TTK is completely out of wack atm. 1v1 fights can last for 5+ mins or it can be over in a few seconds.. The moment your shield goes down you are practically naked and the chances of you dying are pretty high.

DDuke

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.