Which new Hitpoint Standard we need for Dungeons?

Murmeltier · February 2015

Hi,

before the 1.6, the most of the Players have had around 3k Hit-Points in PvE. We put the most Attributepoints in Life and push the Main Attribute with Equip & Bufffood to reach the Softcap.

So, all of the Players have had a Feeling how it works in the Dungeons. With the Changes in 1.6 the Attributes are way lower than before. I cant reach my old Level of Numbers, as a Templar in light Armor. And i think that not only the Templar has this Problem.

Before i have had 3k Life and 2.4k Magicka, now at Base with Equip and Bufffood 13k Life (1.3k old System?) and 19k Magicka (1.9k old System?), and i can share 62 Points to those Numbers.

That means if i put all my 62 Points into Life, i could reach nearly 20k Hitpoints (2k old System?) and have 19k in Magicka. The Numbers arent 100% excactly but they are near at the actual Situation on PTS 1.6.

I know the Idea that we should play and grow with the CP-System, but how i can survive in the Dungeons with 19k Magicka and 20k Hitpoints, till i reach enough Points to reach my old Stats?

Did you ever tried the Trials with 2k Hitpoints and 1.9k Magicka? Do you mean you can do the Vet Dungeons with those new Stats? Maybe Zenimax changed the Damage and Monsters too, but this isnt only a *we changed all stats x10* Thing, this is a little bit more and seems a little bit chaotic.

For sure, maybe it works if 1.6 Comes out, but at the Moment i am confused.

So my Question is, if we go into the Vet-Dungeons and Trials after 1.6 arrives, how much Hitpoints we will need as a new Line of Minimum? Maybe some of the Guilds do some Test-Runs and have an Idea.

Black_Wolf88 · February 2015

imo its way too early to tell.

Murmeltier · February 2015

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

imo its way too early to tell.

It should be an early Theme, it is important and interesting

.

Alcast · February 2015

You need around 18-23k HP

Murmeltier · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

You need around 18-23k HP

Ok, i am very happy to read that. So i dont need the old Numbers (3k) to do the 1.6 Vet Dungeons and Trials. I hope that works, but we will see.

glak · February 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You need around 18-23k HP

Ok, i am very happy to read that. So i dont need the old Numbers (3k) to do the 1.6 Vet Dungeons and Trials. I hope that works, but we will see.

Which would have been 3k * 9 = 27k. Definitely happy its ~20.5k

xMovingTarget · February 2015

20-22k is a good value for DPS/Healers. I survived almost everything in Sanctum on PTS with that amount of health.

RoyJade · February 2015

With 15k and a 8k damage shield, I can survive easily too. It's a good solution if you can keep your dps and your shield.

Syntse · February 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

Before i have had 3k Life and 2.4k Magicka, now at Base with Equip and Bufffood 13k Life (1.3k old System?) and 19k Magicka (1.9k old System?), and i can share 62 Points to those Numbers.

That means if i put all my 62 Points into Life, i could reach nearly 20k Hitpoints (2k old System?) and have 19k in Magicka. The Numbers arent 100% excactly but they are near at the actual Situation on PTS 1.6.

This is the misconception that people have with the new system that everything is scaled up purely with 10x modifier. With many comparisons made by people it seems that the scaling is mostly 7x. So 20k health would be in the old system 2857hp.

RoyJade · February 2015

And remember life has been decreased : before, life was 1.5x better than other resources, now it's x1.1 or something like that. So, 1.6 pool life is not even 1.5 life x7, unlike magicka or stamina.

Vordae · February 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

Hi,

before the 1.6, the most of the Players have had around 3k Hit-Points in PvE. We put the most Attributepoints in Life and push the Main Attribute with Equip & Bufffood to reach the Softcap.

So, all of the Players have had a Feeling how it works in the Dungeons. With the Changes in 1.6 the Attributes are way lower than before. I cant reach my old Level of Numbers, as a Templar in light Armor. And i think that not only the Templar has this Problem.

Before i have had 3k Life and 2.4k Magicka, now at Base with Equip and Bufffood 13k Life (1.3k old System?) and 19k Magicka (1.9k old System?), and i can share 62 Points to those Numbers.

That means if i put all my 62 Points into Life, i could reach nearly 20k Hitpoints (2k old System?) and have 19k in Magicka. The Numbers arent 100% excactly but they are near at the actual Situation on PTS 1.6.

I know the Idea that we should play and grow with the CP-System, but how i can survive in the Dungeons with 19k Magicka and 20k Hitpoints, till i reach enough Points to reach my old Stats?

Did you ever tried the Trials with 2k Hitpoints and 1.9k Magicka? Do you mean you can do the Vet Dungeons with those new Stats? Maybe Zenimax changed the Damage and Monsters too, but this isnt only a *we changed all stats x10* Thing, this is a little bit more and seems a little bit chaotic.

For sure, maybe it works if 1.6 Comes out, but at the Moment i am confused.

So my Question is, if we go into the Vet-Dungeons and Trials after 1.6 arrives, how much Hitpoints we will need as a new Line of Minimum? Maybe some of the Guilds do some Test-Runs and have an Idea.

The stats were not increased by a flat 10%. Its been tested and shown that the increases are all different %'s for different stats, gear, enchants, and anything else you can think of. We all wish that they had increased everything by a flat % but that would have made understanding all the new numbers to easy.

DeLindsay · February 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You need around 18-23k HP

Ok, i am very happy to read that. So i dont need the old Numbers (3k) to do the 1.6 Vet Dungeons and Trials. I hope that works, but we will see.

You never needed 3K to survive Vet Dungeons and Trials, not even SO. Currently the Meta is ~2400 for Vet Dungeons, ~2600 for AA/HR and ~2800 for SO. Having roughly 2700 for my Healing and DPS builds (without Cyro buff) nets me ~21K on PTS which is right in the range we're seeing as enough to survive certain Boss mechanics like the Ground Slam from Bogdan in Vet EH (hits for like 18K).

Murmeltier · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Murmeltier wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You need around 18-23k HP

Ok, i am very happy to read that. So i dont need the old Numbers (3k) to do the 1.6 Vet Dungeons and Trials. I hope that works, but we will see.

You never needed 3K to survive Vet Dungeons and Trials, not even SO. Currently the Meta is ~2400 for Vet Dungeons, ~2600 for AA/HR and ~2800 for SO. Having roughly 2700 for my Healing and DPS builds (without Cyro buff) nets me ~21K on PTS which is right in the range we're seeing as enough to survive certain Boss mechanics like the Ground Slam from Bogdan in Vet EH (hits for like 18K).

In my Raids the People asked for 2.8k to 3k, with Buffs or not. Some of the AOEs from the Bosses hit very hard. 2.4k/2.6k is way too low. I think we have different Experience about this.

For the 1.6 you cant do excact Numbers because the System is to new. But the Info that they change the old Numbers to x10 isnt right here. They have done more. We will see how it works but in the old Dungeons you will have a very hard Time to survive with 2.4k or 2.1k Hitpoints (21k/1.6).

Darkintellect · February 2015

At 18k all vet dungeons were easy as a Nightblade Healer. HoA and AA I had 20,350 and had zero problems. This is with...

- 20,350 Health
- 31,200 Magicka
- 32 & 32 Magicka/Health
- 3500 hp/magicka food

- Armor
-- Twice Born star set
-- Divine
-- Full Magicka Enchant

- Ritual/Shadow Mundus Stone

- 23 point Mage/Thief & 24 point Warrior

DeLindsay · February 2015

Darkintellect wrote: »

At 18k all vet dungeons were easy as a Nightblade Healer. HoA and AA I had 20,350 and had zero problems. This is with...

- 20,350 Health
- 31,200 Magicka
- 32 & 32 Magicka/Health
- 3500 hp/magicka food

- Armor
-- Twice Born star set
-- Divine
-- Full Magicka Enchant

- Ritual/Shadow Mundus Stone

- 23 point Mage/Thief & 24 point Warrior

Thanks for the info, and that's an interesting setup for Healing (Twice Born). With the removal of Soft caps I can see that set being reasonably useful.

Murmeltier wrote: »

In my Raids the People asked for 2.8k to 3k, with Buffs or not. Some of the AOEs from the Bosses hit very hard. 2.4k/2.6k is way too low. I think we have different Experience about this.

For the 1.6 you cant do excact Numbers because the System is to new. But the Info that they change the old Numbers to x10 isnt right here. They have done more. We will see how it works but in the old Dungeons you will have a very hard Time to survive with 2.4k or 2.1k Hitpoints (21k/1.6).

Health did not scale x10, it's closer to x7. I can also verify that you do NOT in fact require 2.8-3K Health in current end game content (short of possibly SO). There is no single Boss mechanic/ability that hits harder than ~2.4K with exception to Mage burn phase is DPS is too low or not having VoB down at the right time and even then 3K won't save you. That said I'm talking about normal attacks not the "if you don't dodge-roll or block this you die" type of abilities, those are meant to 1-shot you if you don't follow the mechanics.

Darkintellect · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Darkintellect wrote: »

At 18k all vet dungeons were easy as a Nightblade Healer. HoA and AA I had 20,350 and had zero problems. This is with...

- 20,350 Health
- 31,200 Magicka
- 32 & 32 Magicka/Health
- 3500 hp/magicka food

- Armor
-- Twice Born star set
-- Divine
-- Full Magicka Enchant

- Ritual/Shadow Mundus Stone

- 23 point Mage/Thief & 24 point Warrior

Thanks for the info, and that's an interesting setup for Healing (Twice Born). With the removal of Soft caps I can see that set being reasonably useful.

Murmeltier wrote: »

It is, only because I currently sit at 48% crit in Live. When I boosted Apprentice to 30 points in PTS for the 12% increase in crit (gives a flat rate additional 12%). I was sitting close to 60% (around 57 or something).

With the 10% bonus from NB Passive (10% of base crit damage which is 50%) making it 55%, then 10% from Shadow and the additional 52.5% from Divine, I have a crit damage of 70.25% which was giving more damage and healing than Magicka mundus or Thief.

The combo even works better than Shadow/Thief. I tried every variation of Thief, Shadow, Ritual, Mage and Warrior. At 43% or less crit, Thief trumps Ritual.

Murmeltier · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Darkintellect wrote: »

Health did not scale x10, it's closer to x7. I can also verify that you do NOT in fact require 2.8-3K Health in current end game content (short of possibly SO). There is no single Boss mechanic/ability that hits harder than ~2.4K with exception to Mage burn phase is DPS is too low or not having VoB down at the right time and even then 3K won't save you. That said I'm talking about normal attacks not the "if you don't dodge-roll or block this you die" type of abilities, those are meant to 1-shot you if you don't follow the mechanics.

We can do this all Night. As i said before, we have different Line of Sight, and we both say we have Exp. Your Numbers sounds very theoretical, but we both knows that a Trial or Vet Dungeon isnt only a theoretical Situation.

One Error, one false Move and certain Bosses hits so hard that a whole Group can whipe because the Hitpoints are too low. Go into the Hel Ra Star-Rain with your 2.4k Hitpoints and you will have heavy Problems, this is only one of the Situations. VoP and Nova or Negate are always in the Scenario.

Maybe you are in a Guild which means that is ok to run around with 2.4k, but for sure the most Guilds i know demand around 2.8k. No one needs a DPS who die too fast and wipe the DPS.

We have different Line of Sights, thats ok for me. We could discuss this again and again but i dont see any positive Advantage in this. I dont want to change yours, and i know mine very well. But thank you for offering your Experience.

Murmeltier · February 2015

But back to my Thread, the 1.6 is near and i think many Guilds will have some Hitpoint Standard for Trials or maybe Vet Dailys. I think it is very important to know how much Hitpoints are necessary, for Vet Dailys and Trials at VR14.

Many of my Guildmembers work on their Sets and Builds for 1.6. We discuss the Line and at the Moment it seems, that all Attributepoints wander into Life. That means around 20k Hitpoints for the most Guildmembers.

Sure we can only see how much we really need for the Trials/Vet Dailys, if we do them in 1.6. But at the Moment these are the Numbers we plan with.

If there isnt a Line the Player knows, we will have many of the "Glasscanons" who will put all in Magicka/Stamina for DPS, that isnt very helpfull.

yodased · February 2015

Well I am not sure about other guilds, but we don't discriminate nor have a HP cutoff for any runs. It just comes down to the player knowing the fights and being able to do what they need to do.

My vice-guild master ran EH with us the other day with 1,900 hp (which left 100hp after bog slam) in a medium armor bow build simply because he didn't feel like eating food lol.

As long as you have enough hp to survive the mechanics you are fine.

I think requiring a certain build or hp level will allow for more synergistic playing for speed runs and leaderboards, but as far as completing the trials and dungeons, its not needed to pigeonhole your players into x HP.

DeLindsay · February 2015

yodased wrote: »

My vice-guild master ran EH with us the other day with 1,900 hp (which left 100hp after bog slam) in a medium armor bow build simply because he didn't feel like eating food lol.

The only caveat I'd like to add to this is you HAVE to be above whatever the damage of the worst Boss ability in the Dungeon/Trial is. I only say that because I had to Heal a pug in Vet DC one day that had (I'm not joking here) 1749 Health WITH Food. He got 2-shot by everything and it was all I could do to keep the group from wiping. We didn't wipe once but that guy/gal died many times.

EDIT: The difference between a DD Player and that pug I had to Heal is the pug stood in Fire constantly on the EG fight, and didn't dodge roll out of frontal cones, etc. A good Player like in DD wouldn't do any of those shenanigans. That pug was literally the only time I've Healed where I was OOM almost the entire Dungeon and burned through almost 60 pots.

s7732425ub17_ESO · February 2015

Here are more realistic current numbers. I see less than 5% of players running around with 3000 HP in PVE, the OP is way off on that number.

Minimum HP required for smooth Vet Dungeon runs: 2200
Minimum HP required for smooth AA/Hel-Ra: 2400
Minimum HP required for smooth SO: 2700

The standard rule is that a VR14 should have 2500 HP to be able to do any content. This is including food buffs- since food buffs are applied 24/7, there is no reason to ever post numbers without them.

How these numbers convert to 1.6 numbers? We will have to wait until a month after 1.6 hits live before another general consensus will be formed.

DeLindsay · February 2015

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Minimum HP required for smooth Vet Dungeon runs: 2200
Minimum HP required for smooth AA/Hel-Ra: 2400
Minimum HP required for smooth SO: 2700

^ This for Live.

Cody · February 2015

well i did every vet dungeon save CoA with 2.1K HP, so i myself don't care what the value will be, i'll do them anyway:)

but im going to assume it will be 20K+

Murmeltier · February 2015

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Here are more realistic current numbers. I see less than 5% of players running around with 3000 HP in PVE, the OP is way off on that number.

Minimum HP required for smooth Vet Dungeon runs: 2200
Minimum HP required for smooth AA/Hel-Ra: 2400
Minimum HP required for smooth SO: 2700

The standard rule is that a VR14 should have 2500 HP to be able to do any content. This is including food buffs- since food buffs are applied 24/7, there is no reason to ever post numbers without them.

How these numbers convert to 1.6 numbers? We will have to wait until a month after 1.6 hits live before another general consensus will be formed.

Well, i respect your Exp or Line of Sight, but this isnt my Line of Sight or Exp. These Numbers looks more as a theoretical Situation, with a Guildgroup that works perfect together. But thats not very realistic.

You say my Numbers arent right because you see 5% or less running around with 3k Hitpoints on Live. Really? I see the most in my Guilds and Raidgroups running around with 2.8k+ Hitpoints through PvE and Raids. If we talked over the TS over Hitpoints, all say around 2.8k+ is ok. Should i say your Numbers are wrong?

As i said before, many different Exp here but thats defenitely not mine. And maybe some People want to post that they can do all PvE ingame with 2k Hitpoints, that doesnt change my Exp or the Situation, that these low Hitpoints doesnt support a Raid in Hel Ra/ÄA or the Vet12 Dailys, very well.

At the End, i hope we can stay at the 1.6 and not talking again over the Liveserver.

DeLindsay · February 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

You say my Numbers arent right because you see 5% or less running around with 3k Hitpoints on Live. Really? I see the most in my Guilds and Raidgroups running around with 2.8k+ Hitpoints through PvE and Raids. If we talked over the TS over Hitpoints, all say around 2.8k+ is ok. Should i say your Numbers are wrong?

2.7-2.8K is very easy on Live wihtout Emp buff if you are VR14 in Legendary gear as you will be so far overcharged in Magicka or Stamina that Health becomes the only valuable option. 3K however can only usually be achieved with Emp buff for DPS/Healers and is almost never a "requirement" for any Trials even pugs. I'm taking this from NA, not sure how EU is as my highest Character on EU is 37. But if @Alcast and others in Hodor (EU's #1 end game Guild) aren't requiring 3K then that says all you need to know.

Alcast · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Murmeltier wrote: »

You say my Numbers arent right because you see 5% or less running around with 3k Hitpoints on Live. Really? I see the most in my Guilds and Raidgroups running around with 2.8k+ Hitpoints through PvE and Raids. If we talked over the TS over Hitpoints, all say around 2.8k+ is ok. Should i say your Numbers are wrong?

2.7-2.8K is very easy on Live wihtout Emp buff if you are VR14 in Legendary gear as you will be so far overcharged in Magicka or Stamina that Health becomes the only valuable option. 3K however can only usually be achieved with Emp buff for DPS/Healers and is almost never a "requirement" for any Trials even pugs. I'm taking this from NA, not sure how EU is as my highest Character on EU is 37. But if @Alcast and others in Hodor (EU's #1 end game Guild) aren't requiring 3K then that says all you need to know.

2,5k HP is totally fine. Most ppl run with 2,7k though. Also depends on group, if you are with randoms more HP is always safer. in a good grp where people actually know how to avoid death etc 2,5k is good.

Murmeltier · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Murmeltier wrote: »

You say my Numbers arent right because you see 5% or less running around with 3k Hitpoints on Live. Really? I see the most in my Guilds and Raidgroups running around with 2.8k+ Hitpoints through PvE and Raids. If we talked over the TS over Hitpoints, all say around 2.8k+ is ok. Should i say your Numbers are wrong?

2.7-2.8K is very easy on Live wihtout Emp buff if you are VR14 in Legendary gear as you will be so far overcharged in Magicka or Stamina that Health becomes the only valuable option. 3K however can only usually be achieved with Emp buff for DPS/Healers and is almost never a "requirement" for any Trials even pugs. I'm taking this from NA, not sure how EU is as my highest Character on EU is 37. But if @Alcast and others in Hodor (EU's #1 end game Guild) aren't requiring 3K then that says all you need to know.

Hm, interesting. I said i want to talk about the new Hitpoint-Line for 1.6. Thats for planing Builds. Because it isnt very helpfull if no one knows what they need and put all their Points in one Attribute, like Magicka & Stamina to get the highest DPS.

But we talk over the Hitpoint-Level in 1.5 again and again, that isnt very helpfull. If you cant give any constructive Infos about the new Hitpoint-Line it is ok. But dont try to correct mine because you arent in my Guilds, you have only some other Infos.

Hodor and some other proffessional Players could use lower Hitpoints because they are more trained. But with that low Hitpoints you havent Room for any Errors and i doesnt see ever a Player, who dont make any Errors.

Raidguilds are not the Standard, they offer only Situations at it bests theoretical Possibility. In the Praxis it can only work if all works like planed, but a MMORPG cant be planned to the last mm. There are more Players in the Game who dont reach this playing Standards, so the Player can be are very different in the Guilds. Maybe not in the Hardcore Raidguilds but in the most others.

I am very irritated that some People means that 2.4k in a Raid is ok, because every Dead cost Time or could whipe the Group. I never seen a Run that works like the other before, so you have plenty of chaotic Situation.You see that the Numbers from the People variates a lot of, some say 1.9k - 2.5k is ok and some others say they see many People run around with 2.7k on Live. So i am not so lonely here, with my Hitpoints of 2.8k+.

The most Players i know use their whole Points in the Attribute Life (1.5), and reach the Softcap from Magicka or Stamina, through Equip, Bufffood. It is easy and works for many Builds. My Templar-Healer has around 2.8k Life and if i switch to my Shield around 3k.

There is no need for the most Builds to put Points into another Attribute, as you said before, and so we have mostly 2.7k+ Hitpoints in our Guilds. So what i say about my Experience is right, we do this so. Many Players do this, maybe you and a handfull other Players do this otherwise. Thats ok, but not every Raidguild works like a Clockwork and doesnt get a more Damage than planed. That says all you need to know.

My personal Guildgroup have 2.8k+ Hitpoints and we do the most Things in good Times. So it works very good for us. If your Guildmembers run through the Trials with with 2.4k Hitpoints on Live or Hodor does it, then it is ok for me. But thats the Exception, not the Rule.

Hardcore Raidguild Numbers are an Exception but there are more Players outthere who wants "only" to play good. For these Players it is important to know which Numbers they need to survive in Trials and Veteran Dungeons. That doesnt mean they have to take these Numbers, it is more a helping Info.

For the End, i dont want to see Players forced into the right Numbers. It should more helping to orientate for planning Builds in Raids. There will be a Line and maybe this Thread helps a little bit to orientate, so more Players have a Chance in the Raids or Veteran Dungeons after 1.6.

I offered much Time to explain my Line of Sight and my Experience but i hope we can concentrate back to the Thread now. I dont discuss the Hitpoint-Line at the Liveserver anymore, that isnt very helpfull for the Thread.

Murmeltier · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

You need around 18-23k HP

I read that some of the Boss AOEs hits for 18k, so i would start a ittle bit higher. But i think it is good Info that new Players can use, before they put all their Attributepoints into Magicka/Stamina.

Murmeltier · February 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

20-22k is a good value for DPS/Healers. I survived almost everything in Sanctum on PTS with that amount of health.

Thats a helpfull Info, thank you.

Murmeltier · February 2015

Cody wrote: »

well i did every vet dungeon save CoA with 2.1K HP, so i myself don't care what the value will be, i'll do them anyway:)

but im going to assume it will be 20K+

So we have here a Base around 20k+, i hear that from some Guildmembers from the PTS, too.

Murmeltier · February 2015

Darkintellect wrote: »

At 18k all vet dungeons were easy as a Nightblade Healer. HoA and AA I had 20,350 and had zero problems. This is with...

- 20,350 Health
- 31,200 Magicka
- 32 & 32 Magicka/Health
- 3500 hp/magicka food

- Armor
-- Twice Born star set
-- Divine
-- Full Magicka Enchant

- Ritual/Shadow Mundus Stone

- 23 point Mage/Thief & 24 point Warrior

Thank you for the detailed Infos. So the Twice Born Star Set can be very interesting with the 1.6.