ZOS dont make food and drink stackable and why

bowmanz607

Does it really make sense to make them stack? Whats the point? all people will do is always have them on at all times. People are going to feel obligated to spend time, money and energy to craft, buy, or grind for the materials to stay on par with everyone else. You might as well just give us all higher permanent stats and take food away b/c that is essentially what is happening.

The Remedy: make the buffs from drinks better so people will actually use them.

Why: this will give people a viable choice and make their build more of a custom build. the increased recovery from drinks could be more useful in pve where you are going through resources on a more sustained basis and ultimately allow you to put out more damage from having more resources. the boost from food will be better for pvp to allow higher end burst damage to drop foes quicker. (i am not saying that they will be necessarily separated this way. I am only making a point.)

To sum: if your going to stack then just give us higher stats. by keeping them separate it allows more customization and more choices for the user. (if drinks are boosted to a level to be viable.)

Shuichi

The whole point of a crafting tree dedicated to food/drink is for players to be able to augment their stats. What you're asking for will essentially nullify their ability to do so. . . not making much sense honestly.

DanielMaxwell

Food = increased stat pool

Drink = regeneration of stat

I think most would like to have them stack instead of have the regeneration buffed to the point that it is too strong .

a modest increase to the regeneration rates provided from drinks is not needed if they stacked with food .

bowmanz607

How so? it gives you a choice of which you want depending on how you want to play. I can craft a bow and a staff but i dont ecpect to use both at the same time. I make a choice. I can use precise or sharpened but not both. It all depends on how u want to play.

bowmanz607

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Food = increased stat pool

Drink = regeneration of stat

I think most would like to have them stack instead of have the regeneration buffed to the point that it is too strong .

a modest increase to the regeneration rates provided from drinks is not needed if they stacked with food .

Right, but again why stack them and just not provide a viable second option? Obviously you will need the right calculations and test it.

pmn100b16_ESO

Yeah I've never understood why people keep asking for stackable food and drink like its going to give them an advantage. It isn't, everyone will just need to eat food AND take drink before doing anything. The net result is nullified. You'll get better regen rates in pvp, but so will your opponent. You will be able to do trials faster, but so will everyone else. There's no end benefit, just another annoying thing you'll have to grind mats for.

Shadesofkin

Regeneration is never going to be a viable option in comparison to raw numbers, unless you overpower the regeneration rate (something no one will be ok with). Stacking food and drink is the only way you will ever make drinks important at all.

pmn100b16_ESO

Someone had an idea in another thread something along the lines of, if you have purple food, you can stack with a green drink. Blue food stack up to a blue drink. Green food stack up to a purple drink. Might be an option.

bowmanz607

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

Regeneration is never going to be a viable option in comparison to raw numbers, unless you overpower the regeneration rate (something no one will be ok with). Stacking food and drink is the only way you will ever make drinks important at all.

I disagree. for one if people have recovery on gear they can now lose that and add other items that will help in others way. Also, although raw damage is better it doesn't matter if you run out of resources. An example is siphoning attacks. It hurts your attack power, but overall is better in dungeons because you can attack more.

xaraan

I think another alternative would be to make high level drinks do buffs like increased stamina and stamina regen (and a magicka version, and health version), that way you have something for people that want to buff one stat well and those after the sheer numbers can do blue or purple food and raise two or three stats but not get the regen buffs, or drinks to raise two or three regens but not the stat increase. Though raising the regen bonus on drinks would help quite a bit in making them useful. Right now, there is still no choice really.

bowmanz607

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Someone had an idea in another thread something along the lines of, if you have purple food, you can stack with a green drink. Blue food stack up to a blue drink. Green food stack up to a purple drink. Might be an option.

that is an interesting thought. but at the same time people will always feel obligated to have both and i dont think people should feel obligated to do so. This game is about choices and I think that another choice is what this game should do.

Shadesofkin

bowmanz607 wrote: »

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

Regeneration is never going to be a viable option in comparison to raw numbers, unless you overpower the regeneration rate (something no one will be ok with). Stacking food and drink is the only way you will ever make drinks important at all.

I disagree. for one if people have recovery on gear they can now lose that and add other items that will help in others way. Also, although raw damage is better it doesn't matter if you run out of resources. An example is siphoning attacks. It hurts your attack power, but overall is better in dungeons because you can attack more.

I see what you're saying, but I have never seen it in action. I *have* seen dozens of players say "food up?" because they know that those extra hit points, stamina points, and magicka points are going to give them longevity as well as overall damage and other benefits.

Raw regeneration cannot (currently) compete with raw increase. Now, I'm willing to concede that, yes, it will become a staple of good dungeon runners or pvp warriors if allowed, but I'd rather have that than a whole section of my profession that I consider sub-standard and feel frustrated when drink ingredients show up in my hirelings mail.

bowmanz607

xaraan wrote: »

I think another alternative would be to make high level drinks do buffs like increased stamina and stamina regen (and a magicka version, and health version), that way you have something for people that want to buff one stat well and those after the sheer numbers can do blue or purple food and raise two or three stats but not get the regen buffs, or drinks to raise two or three regens but not the stat increase. Though raising the regen bonus on drinks would help quite a bit in making them useful. Right now, there is still no choice really.

I really like that idea. so choose between increase in stats or one increased stat and one recovery.

Shadesofkin

Even in those circumstances, Tri-Stat food would win out.

eliisra

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

Regeneration is never going to be a viable option in comparison to raw numbers, unless you overpower the regeneration rate (something no one will be ok with). Stacking food and drink is the only way you will ever make drinks important at all.

Yeah, that's why drinks are useless. Getting 300-500+ extra stamina or magicka is a substantial dps increase. Raising your stat pool boosts all of your skills, how much you heal, size of shields, how hard you hit and so on. This while drinks only gives you one thing, recovery (that's easy to get anyway).

For drinks to be useful a secondary buff would be needed, like extra weapon- or spell power or critical rating. Otherwise you might as well allow the usage of both.

bowmanz607

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

Regeneration is never going to be a viable option in comparison to raw numbers, unless you overpower the regeneration rate (something no one will be ok with). Stacking food and drink is the only way you will ever make drinks important at all.

I disagree. for one if people have recovery on gear they can now lose that and add other items that will help in others way. Also, although raw damage is better it doesn't matter if you run out of resources. An example is siphoning attacks. It hurts your attack power, but overall is better in dungeons because you can attack more.

I see what you're saying, but I have never seen it in action. I *have* seen dozens of players say "food up?" because they know that those extra hit points, stamina points, and magicka points are going to give them longevity as well as overall damage and other benefits.

Raw regeneration cannot (currently) compete with raw increase. Now, I'm willing to concede that, yes, it will become a staple of good dungeon runners or pvp warriors if allowed, but I'd rather have that than a whole section of my profession that I consider sub-standard and feel frustrated when drink ingredients show up in my hirelings mail.

Ya but i would say people say "food up" cause why would you use the drinks right now?

bowmanz607

I am not opposed to some secondary buff or different drinks. I just dont see the point in having to stack. to stay competetive you will always have to maintain both and your kinda forced into doing it. I dont like that. Give viable choices for each. Maybe something like a drink that increases stam, stam recovery, and increases weapon damage or crit and vice versa for magika and health ones. I just think more choices as opposed to being forced makes things much more interesting and customizable.

Shadesofkin

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ya but i would say people say "food up" cause why would you use the drinks right now?

But even if you make drinks better you will never get them to a place where they are preferable to food, especially tri-stat food.

If I'm running out of magicka I can pop Spell Sym to get more and the healer can make sure I'm back up fighting fit. If I run out of Stamina (for me at least) I can throw up an earthen heart ability or Green Dragons Blood and a potion.

Developers would be required to over power drinks to make them competitive with tri-stat food at this point. It would be simpler and more effective to allow them to stack.

Otherwise, drinks will always lose out to food unless they're broken on purpose.

bowmanz607

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ya but i would say people say "food up" cause why would you use the drinks right now?

But even if you make drinks better you will never get them to a place where they are preferable to food, especially tri-stat food.

If I'm running out of magicka I can pop Spell Sym to get more and the healer can make sure I'm back up fighting fit. If I run out of Stamina (for me at least) I can throw up an earthen heart ability or Green Dragons Blood and a potion.

Developers would be required to over power drinks to make them competitive with tri-stat food at this point. It would be simpler and more effective to allow them to stack.

Otherwise, drinks will always lose out to food unless they're broken on purpose.

If a drink is competitive with food how is that OP? it would be OP if they were not competitive but way better like how food is right now. moreover, maybe it could be at a point where u will have the recovery and not have to use symmetry but now have an extra slot to add a DoT or something along those lines. But again maybe a change to the drinks as mentioned above to increase damage, recovery, and one base stat. that would be worth it depending on your build. I just dont like being backed into a corner and forced to do something. Again, why not just increase everyones base stats permanently cause that is what you would essentially be doing with stacking them. Having to spend more time, money, and energy to do something that is being forced on you is crazy. IMO obviously.

Shadesofkin

I hear you, but what I am saying is that no amount of increase will make them competitive *unless* they make them broken.

I will concede that something additional like crit or damage or healing output added to the drinks would be enticing enough to at least give me pause.

Recremen

Making them stack is a far more elegant solution than trying to tweak it endlessly. Unlike the choice of weapons, which implies a great many factors such as the skills you slot on your bar, drink and food are binary options. Therefore, it is incredibly easy, once you select an arbitrary build and gearset, to find out which one will benefit your build better, but it is monumentally difficult to balance the difference between food and drink across all possible character builds and gearsets.

By making them stack, it will ensure that both systems are utilized by the player base, and thus justify the time spent developing both sides of the system.

bowmanz607

what about increasing the drinks to scale off of a percentage of your recovery. For instance, a 30% increase in your recovery based off of your current recovery rate?

DanielMaxwell

bowmanz607 wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Food = increased stat pool

Drink = regeneration of stat

I think most would like to have them stack instead of have the regeneration buffed to the point that it is too strong .

a modest increase to the regeneration rates provided from drinks is not needed if they stacked with food .

Right, but again why stack them and just not provide a viable second option? Obviously you will need the right calculations and test it.

Stat increases come from Attribute points , champion systems points(each point increase one attribute depending on where it is spent) and food .

Stat regeneration comes from Skill points (depends on what morphs you choose) , champion system (what stars and unlocks you choose) , itemization , and Drinks .

If the buffed the regen from drinks , enough that it was as valuable as the stat increase from food , they would have to remove it from gear , all skills , and the champion system since it would be so strong that adding more from those sources would be game breaking .

with they way regen and stat increases are set up stacking them is the best solution to making drinks viable

bowmanz607

But by stacking points and gear in recovery alon with drinks you would lose a lot else where. So you may have a high regen but low damage perhaps to low. And personally I don't feel like having the high regen is as viable in pvp as pve. But again. Also you can get gear for base stats for magika and what not. Also there are skills that increase max magika and Stam depending on racials. But I do see your point. That said, I don't think stacking is the best solution. So much as the easiest. Again as mentioned before, add some different stats to drinks along with recovery. Or maybe instead of recovery at all because we have all done fine without it how bout a tri drink that does like crit, damage, and increase a base stat associated with the type of damage and crit you get. Then people can decided between that or tri food. That could be viable?

DanielMaxwell

If stat regeneration is buffed (regardless of its source) it becomes game breaking .

i.e. if you stacked health regen to a certain point you could nickle and dime any mob to death because you have enough health regen to survive the mobs damage forever .(to the best of my knowledge this is not possible in the game at this time , thankfully)

if ZOS was to buff regen on drinks , they would have to reduce it (and in some cases remove it) in other areas where players can get it.

In order to maintain game balance ZOS might conclude that food and drink buffs are best left as non-stack-able .

DanielMaxwell

bowmanz607 wrote: »

But by stacking points and gear in recovery alon with drinks you would lose a lot else where. So you may have a high regen but low damage perhaps to low. And personally I don't feel like having the high regen is as viable in pvp as pve. But again. Also you can get gear for base stats for magika and what not. Also there are skills that increase max magika and Stam depending on racials. But I do see your point. That said, I don't think stacking is the best solution. So much as the easiest. Again as mentioned before, add some different stats to drinks along with recovery. Or maybe instead of recovery at all because we have all done fine without it how bout a tri drink that does like crit, damage, and increase a base stat associated with the type of damage and crit you get. Then people can decided between that or tri food. That could be viable?

I know many hate on WoW but you used to be able to stack every single buff flask , potion and food in that game .The Blizzard developers had to remove that because it was making it impossible to create reasonable content without planing it around the players stacking all of those buffs , there by making the content to difficult for new players to get into (dungeons and raids) , or do (open world content). It was also having an effect on the in game economy due to the high gold cost to obtain them . There where some additional reasons that I do not recall at this time .

For the long term health of the game all food and drink buffs have to be looked at along side everything else in the game that provides those same stats . In this case adding weapon, spell , or crit damage to drinks along side regen of base stats would be game breaking , or require that all other sources of weapon, spell , and damage boosters be reduced.

timidobserver

They could sprinkle in some different stat configurations into drinks. As long as it is all recovery, it will be useless.

Examples
+HealthStat , +Magicka Regen Stat, + Stamina Regen Stat
+HealthStat , +Magicka Regen Stat, +Magicka

yodased

if everything was % based and not fixed cost then regen would always win. You would want to keep the smallest viable resource pool and regen it as fast as possible.

Since this game uses hard numbers for just about everything, larger pools are always going to be better.

The bow/staff comparison doesn't really fly though because you couldn't actually use them at the same time since 2 hands only, but you in fact need to both eat and drink to live.

I honestly don't even know why drinks are currently in the game.

bowmanz607

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

But by stacking points and gear in recovery alon with drinks you would lose a lot else where. So you may have a high regen but low damage perhaps to low. And personally I don't feel like having the high regen is as viable in pvp as pve. But again. Also you can get gear for base stats for magika and what not. Also there are skills that increase max magika and Stam depending on racials. But I do see your point. That said, I don't think stacking is the best solution. So much as the easiest. Again as mentioned before, add some different stats to drinks along with recovery. Or maybe instead of recovery at all because we have all done fine without it how bout a tri drink that does like crit, damage, and increase a base stat associated with the type of damage and crit you get. Then people can decided between that or tri food. That could be viable?

I know many hate on WoW but you used to be able to stack every single buff flask , potion and food in that game .The Blizzard developers had to remove that because it was making it impossible to create reasonable content without planing it around the players stacking all of those buffs , there by making the content to difficult for new players to get into (dungeons and raids) , or do (open world content). It was also having an effect on the in game economy due to the high gold cost to obtain them . There where some additional reasons that I do not recall at this time .

For the long term health of the game all food and drink buffs have to be looked at along side everything else in the game that provides those same stats . In this case adding weapon, spell , or crit damage to drinks along side regen of base stats would be game breaking , or require that all other sources of weapon, spell , and damage boosters be reduced.

I was also suggesting getting rid of regen altogether and just using other stats in drinks since Noone uses them anyway so the regen has never been utilized. Soa be weapon crit plus weapon damage plus stamina base stat. Or vice versa for magka. What about that idea?

cavakthestampede

I like the idea of food and drink having alternate effects. Like item sets, and more variable.

Food might boost a stat and weapon damage, crit damage, healing received, etc. or you can choose to go with a 2 stat boost or 3 stat boots. Really bring a decision to the food instead of having a food that is universally required and balanced around specifically.

Drink could be used for regen of a stat, two stats, three stats, or have slightly different effects than flat stat boost. For example a health regen drink might also give you a little lifesteal. A tank might like a stamina regen drink which reduced block costs.

This would make food and drink decision much more interesting.

Have them stack and adjust values accordingly, since the effects would be unique.

DanielMaxwell

bowmanz607 wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

But by stacking points and gear in recovery alon with drinks you would lose a lot else where. So you may have a high regen but low damage perhaps to low. And personally I don't feel like having the high regen is as viable in pvp as pve. But again. Also you can get gear for base stats for magika and what not. Also there are skills that increase max magika and Stam depending on racials. But I do see your point. That said, I don't think stacking is the best solution. So much as the easiest. Again as mentioned before, add some different stats to drinks along with recovery. Or maybe instead of recovery at all because we have all done fine without it how bout a tri drink that does like crit, damage, and increase a base stat associated with the type of damage and crit you get. Then people can decided between that or tri food. That could be viable?

I know many hate on WoW but you used to be able to stack every single buff flask , potion and food in that game .The Blizzard developers had to remove that because it was making it impossible to create reasonable content without planing it around the players stacking all of those buffs , there by making the content to difficult for new players to get into (dungeons and raids) , or do (open world content). It was also having an effect on the in game economy due to the high gold cost to obtain them . There where some additional reasons that I do not recall at this time .

For the long term health of the game all food and drink buffs have to be looked at along side everything else in the game that provides those same stats . In this case adding weapon, spell , or crit damage to drinks along side regen of base stats would be game breaking , or require that all other sources of weapon, spell , and damage boosters be reduced.

I was also suggesting getting rid of regen altogether and just using other stats in drinks since Noone uses them anyway so the regen has never been utilized. Soa be weapon crit plus weapon damage plus stamina base stat. Or vice versa for magka. What about that idea?

changing the drinks to being weapon damage , spell damage , crit damage , or crit chance is doable but those stats would be nerfed on the other sources of them (not by much) to compensate for them being available from drinks .

When you want to change how buffs work in any game you have to look at all sources for each and every stat that the buff effects , to much of any one can be game breaking , and sadly regen is one of the worst since it has such a small range where it is not overpowered or underpowered .

The developers have very little wiggle room on how the stats are buffed if they want to keep content fun , if buffs are to strong then content is easy (leads to skills or buffs being nerfed) , but if the buffs are to weak then the content is to strong (leads to content being nerfed) .

The general goal is for the content to be a reasonable challenge without any buffs and for the buffs to only make it slightly easier , this is a balance that is very hard for the game developers to reach.