Dear ZOS - your players are frustrated with 1.6, and here's why.

Khivas_Carrick

Domander wrote: »

Please don't assume you speak for me.

What he said. I for one am quite happy that Rebalancing is back because I hate the stigma of a Templar having to be only a healer and having crap DPS because they have a not so good healing tree.

baratron

sput4ueb17_ESO wrote: »

The biggest problem from this patch is the freedom loss that all classes will suffer in the gameplay style . So far you could change armor and play a different kind of style with the same player.player. Sry for my English but for example 1 Templar could play a decent tank and heal with just 1 armor change same with dk and other classes.
That kind of play is already history in PTs and is a pity cuz that was ESo biggest advantage imo.

kaer426 wrote: »

What we have now, and what many players enjoy, is flexibility in pvp and pve.
I can simply change gear and my skill bars, and be viable for any role or situation. That is because I played the game enough to optimize those skills and earn that gear.
1.6 takes the flexibility we earned away until we grind many, many more champion points, or constantly re-spec your small amount of CP, or grind out some role specific alts before 2.0 1.6 is launched.

This. All of this.

I wrote a long post which got deleted when I hit 'preview' because this forum doesn't like it if you quote from multiple posts at once. And I don't quite have the energy to reproduce it right now. Suffice to say that many people believe that any class should be able to perform any role effectively. Of course an average Dragonknight Healer won't be as good as an average Templar Healer; but if the player knows what they are doing, there's no reason why a DK Healer couldn't keep a group alive in a Veteran Dungeon or Trial.

Champion Points should allow this kind of specialisation, and I believe that they do. However, the way that CP are being implemented means that those of us who switch between different roles by putting on a different set of equipment won't be able to do this any more. We'll either have to put all of our CP into our main role or spread them out among three different roles, making us less effective at any.

It's hard enough to find a Tank for Veteran Dungeons now. I literally know one person who plays a Tank exclusively. All of the other Tanks are DPS/Tank switches, or in one case a DPS/Healer/Tank switch.

If 1.6 comes in as it is on the PTS now, what's likely to happen is that Tanks become like gold dust .

C0pp3rhead

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

There are problems with 1.6, but nothing that can't be fixed. Some of you need to quit because your whining is getting silly. If you are unhappy don't play, it's that simple

This is the PTS, you need remember. The point has been made by both ZOS employees & members of the forums: we have every right to lodge our complaints because the purpose of the PTS is to test out new systems & content and provide feedback.

trimsic_ESO

@baratron‌
We barely can find a tank because tanks are not viable, with the exception of a tank built for an exclusive usage in the high end PVE contents. Ever tried to play a tank in Cyrodiil for instance? Many of the tanks of my guild have quit the game a few months after the game was released.

With 1.6, and all the changes made to the armor rating, being a tank looks more viable. If this is indeed the case, the champion system will provide a mean for the tanks to be better in their role. I think we should see more tanks in the game, not less.

C0pp3rhead

@trimsic_ESO‌
I think @baratron‌ was talking about PvE tanks, which are definitely hard to find. In many other games, you're stuck looking for a healer. Here, with plenty of Templars resigned to "play however they want" (i.e. as healers), that's not an issue. Tanks are hard to find because DK's make great tanks yet also great DPSes.

You are right though. Being a tank is now viable in PvP, especially with the addition of the missile-magnet PvP skill. You can sit there all day & soak up damage against other players or for your team, but you sacrifice DPS.

However, I'm not sure that Light Armor provides enough of a damage bonus to compensate for its armor/spell resistance nerf. I understand and support the nerf, but I feel unreasonably squishy in Light Armor. That is to say, I don't feel that my damage output is any greater than someone wearing medium armor, which would compensate for the lower defense. In previous Elder Scrolls games, they used movement speed to compensate for these discrepancies...

Garion

I am curious to know how many of those coming into this thread saying "I like 1.6" have actually spent time on the PTS PvPing, doing dungeons and actually playing content with their characters. I guarantee the vast majority have just read the patch notes and thought "that looks great!". From someone who has both read the patch notes and spent time on the PTS, I can assure you that expectation definitely does not meet reality.

Tonnopesce

They should have pushed more...... like implement in the 1.6.x even the veteran rank remove.

IMHO is wortless to balance the game for the vr ranks once again and then do it again for the remove.... just a BIG waste of time and money.

If they want to redo the game do it NOW not transform even the console players in your beta tester we have done enought tests for you.

IF you Zenimax are thinking that the console players will be your playerbase (you have already lost the faith of the PC playerbase and this forum is the living proof) Dont waste this occasion, all the players here are telling the same thing, more or less.

The 17 of march is quite far away do not rush with the live pach as usual......

Nacario

I understand the need to nerf us as the CP system will bring us back there with additions. What I disagree with is the 70 CP to us vets that have dumped a good 500 - 1000 hours into the game. We should be given more CP considering the time it takes to get 1 CP all the way to 3600 estimated cap. People are complaing because we're nerfed or have to work our way up after beta testing, give us the CP we desverve, while its the new guys that have to work their way.

Seraphyel

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

There are problems with 1.6, but nothing that can't be fixed. Some of you need to quit because your whining is getting silly. If you are unhappy don't play, it's that simple

And exactly that's the reason why ESO is going B2P. The only thing silly here is your opinion regarding criticism.

Sacadon

Seraphyel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys just dont get it. ZOS doesnt care about any of us who are already here. They only care about new people. Get the new people to come in buy a box spend a few crowns and then leave before they hit end game. Thats how pay to win b2p games work.

That's unfortunately the truth.

The PC playerbase is worthless. The PC playerbase is small and unprofitable. That's why everything is focused on the console launch - it's the last chance for Zenimax to turn the major flop that ESO is / was into something finally successful. That's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to content, that's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to all of these changes.

There is one thing Zenimax cares about and that's the console launch + console playerbases. They ruined the PC launch and the PC version and it's too late to "repair" the damage they did with launching sub-ESO as it was last April.

This disaster so many of you speak of has sure been a lot of fun for me and a lot of other players. Change is a PITA no doubt, especially if a complete reset of the game and playing field takes place. I know many do not enjoy the idea of starting over given all of what we've invested to date. Personally, I'm a little challenged to get excited about this too. I do like that the recipe for success has changed significantly. Otherwise a repeat of the content would be much worse. Maybe I'll read the quest content this time through, LOL.

Even if ESO goes belly-up post 1.6 or post console launch. So what? I only play if it's fun, knowing good and well the game or my ability to play it may disappear tomorrow for any number of reasons. If your happiness today depends upon so many external circumstances being particular for you. Then that must be a very rough ride.

FTR. I've been on PTS and the update so far has not met my expectations. I think ZOS did a full 180 in an attempt to achieve balance. And I sure hope they slow down on this release and listen to our constructive feedback.

Khami

I'll say this up front, you don't speak for me.

Don't included everyone in your comments/thread title

The changes in 1.6 are good for the game for the long term.

I get those points from leveling my templar and DK once the update goes live.

kaer426 wrote: »

I think the OP makes many valid points, I hear the same echos in many a teamspeak.
Mainly being : no one wants to grind to get back what we already have.

You get those points from leveling an alt or two. Damn, I wish people would think long term, not short term.

With the champion system, I highly doubt they'll ever raise max level. Getting 3600 champion points is going to take a while.

Seraphyel

Khami wrote: »

You get those points from leveling an alt or two. Damn, I wish people would think long term, not short term.

You think within a year nobody did make a twink?

And what about those players that don't want to play a twink? Zenimax approach with VR zones was that nobody must create a twink. And now we should get the EP while leveling twinks? Sorry, that's a bit dumb.

bowmanz607

Garion wrote: »

I am curious to know how many of those coming into this thread saying "I like 1.6" have actually spent time on the PTS PvPing, doing dungeons and actually playing content with their characters. I guarantee the vast majority have just read the patch notes and thought "that looks great!". From someone who has both read the patch notes and spent time on the PTS, I can assure you that expectation definitely does not meet reality.

I have played it/ do play it. I have read the notes. and yes i like it still thank you. everyone knows there are problems to be worked out. it is called a plat TEST server. I dont undertand what people dont get about that. TEST SERVER TEST SERVER TEST TEST TEST TEST. Meaning, try it out and give us SUBSTANTIVE feedback on what the problem is. simply stating you dont like something is useless.
However, i do see more clearly what the the OP is saying from is above remarks. But, to me, I like the questing (not so much the obviously small sidequest which can be a little annoying), the CP system is similar to skyrim, i never grind it is just boring and annoying, the leveled zones i dont really care for only b/c it is not like elder scrolls to do that. That said, I do believe that with more testing many of the questions and concerns about what it is exactly that is causing the problem will come to light. It just takes time.
As for the gear, ofcourse there was going to be a change to the gear from this update. I figured as much. It has happened before in this game. IM am sure it will happen again to some extent with the removal of vr lvls. That said, I feel people should have expected that and not be so enraged about something.
As to the point with the amount of champ points. I see the frustration. We do have an achievements why not give away some CP that can be tied to achievements that people have earned? I think that would help.

timidobserver

I don't agree with everything the Op said, but his overall point is correct. That point being that there is a lot of stuff in 1.6 that makes various people extremely unhappy for various reasons depending on their playstyle. This is the case with any major patch, but I think it is more so with 1.6. I doubt that there are too many people that are completely happy with 1.6. Well, I guess solo players/new players are probably okay with it.

Grunim

Garion wrote: »

I am curious to know how many of those coming into this thread saying "I like 1.6" have actually spent time on the PTS PvPing, doing dungeons and actually playing content with their characters. I guarantee the vast majority have just read the patch notes and thought "that looks great!". From someone who has both read the patch notes and spent time on the PTS, I can assure you that expectation definitely does not meet reality.

I had fun going onto PTS and doing some PvP with my templar and participating in the scheduled PvP event last week. I got a chance to see how I may want to make changes to my character and the game still seems like fun to me.

The past couple of days, I had a blast starting a character from scratch and seeing how the Justice System affects the new player experience. I wish I had more character slots on the Live game so I could experience the JS from the perspective of a newly created character.

So far the Crown Shop looks good and isn't too obtrusive. There is no blinking icon saying click on me to pay $$

My greatest concern remains how I'll be forced to go PvE if I wish to earn CPs going forward.

Gyudan

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Please don't assume you speak for me.

What he said. I for one am quite happy that Rebalancing is back because I hate the stigma of a Templar having to be only a healer and having crap DPS because they have a not so good healing tree.

+1

Joejudas

Sacadon wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys just dont get it. ZOS doesnt care about any of us who are already here. They only care about new people. Get the new people to come in buy a box spend a few crowns and then leave before they hit end game. Thats how pay to win b2p games work.

That's unfortunately the truth.

The PC playerbase is worthless. The PC playerbase is small and unprofitable. That's why everything is focused on the console launch - it's the last chance for Zenimax to turn the major flop that ESO is / was into something finally successful. That's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to content, that's why PC playerbase is left behind when it comes to all of these changes.

There is one thing Zenimax cares about and that's the console launch + console playerbases. They ruined the PC launch and the PC version and it's too late to "repair" the damage they did with launching sub-ESO as it was last April.

This disaster so many of you speak of has sure been a lot of fun for me and a lot of other players. Change is a PITA no doubt, especially if a complete reset of the game and playing field takes place. I know many do not enjoy the idea of starting over given all of what we've invested to date. Personally, I'm a little challenged to get excited about this too. I do like that the recipe for success has changed significantly. Otherwise a repeat of the content would be much worse. Maybe I'll read the quest content this time through, LOL.

Even if ESO goes belly-up post 1.6 or post console launch. So what? I only play if it's fun, knowing good and well the game or my ability to play it may disappear tomorrow for any number of reasons. If your happiness today depends upon so many external circumstances being particular for you. Then that must be a very rough ride.

FTR. I've been on PTS and the update so far has not met my expectations. I think ZOS did a full 180 in an attempt to achieve balance. And I sure hope they slow down on this release and listen to our constructive feedback.

There will be alot more of these " o wait update 1.6 is actually awful " when this hits live .

eventide03b14a_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

I am actually very happy with 1.6 .
It feels much better than 1.5 in my opinion. I like it as it is at the moment (only my opinion)

That's like saying I'm really happy with this dog crap, it sure doesn't smell as bad as the cat crap. At the end of the day crap is crap.

eventide03b14a_ESO

baratron wrote: »

sput4ueb17_ESO wrote: »

The biggest problem from this patch is the freedom loss that all classes will suffer in the gameplay style . So far you could change armor and play a different kind of style with the same player.player. Sry for my English but for example 1 Templar could play a decent tank and heal with just 1 armor change same with dk and other classes.
That kind of play is already history in PTs and is a pity cuz that was ESo biggest advantage imo.

kaer426 wrote: »

What we have now, and what many players enjoy, is flexibility in pvp and pve.
I can simply change gear and my skill bars, and be viable for any role or situation. That is because I played the game enough to optimize those skills and earn that gear.
1.6 takes the flexibility we earned away until we grind many, many more champion points, or constantly re-spec your small amount of CP, or grind out some role specific alts before 2.0 1.6 is launched.

This. All of this.

I wrote a long post which got deleted when I hit 'preview' because this forum doesn't like it if you quote from multiple posts at once. And I don't quite have the energy to reproduce it right now. Suffice to say that many people believe that any class should be able to perform any role effectively. Of course an average Dragonknight Healer won't be as good as an average Templar Healer; but if the player knows what they are doing, there's no reason why a DK Healer couldn't keep a group alive in a Veteran Dungeon or Trial.

Champion Points should allow this kind of specialisation, and I believe that they do. However, the way that CP are being implemented means that those of us who switch between different roles by putting on a different set of equipment won't be able to do this any more. We'll either have to put all of our CP into our main role or spread them out among three different roles, making us less effective at any.

It's hard enough to find a Tank for Veteran Dungeons now. I literally know one person who plays a Tank exclusively. All of the other Tanks are DPS/Tank switches, or in one case a DPS/Healer/Tank switch.

If 1.6 comes in as it is on the PTS now, what's likely to happen is that Tanks become like gold dust .

Well said. And I think that's the point most people are missing. This new system only further restricts us and makes us far less versatile. I never liked that I had to have multiple sets of gear for different situations but I like this system far less. Once people start to realize how awful and specialized their characters end up it's already going to be too late.

Palidon

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

tl;dr
- stat changes = nerf & incentive to grind CP.
- Other changes are too much at once and come without explanation.
- ZOS does not have the credibility with its customers to pull these stunts.
- Solution: hold off on rebalancing until Vet levels are compressed back to 50.

When we first heard about the huge changes that 1.6 had to offer, many players including myself were delighted that long standing complaints were finally being addressed. On top of that, ZOS planned to introduce Champion Points (CP), which would allow for more end-game progression, making us more powerful. When many of us saw the patch notes and logged on to the PTS, we found ourselves confused by big numbers. Players did not ask for many of the changes in 1.6, and we are wondering why they were implemented. Looking over many of the comments on the PTS forums, it seems that the biggest frustration stems from a lack of transparency on your part.

Before I get into the meat of my argument, I want to say that some changes were very successful. Among these are improvements to some class skills, espeically Templars and changes to trial scoring. @pppontus‌ started an excellent thread detailing many of these changes. This thread will not talk about specific class changes, as those can be found through the following links:

• Sorcerer
• Templar
• Dragonknight
• Nightblade

What I do want to discuss is stat changes.

The explanation that ZOS gave us regarding the larger numbers was this: the larger numbers provided more granularity concerning the sometimes small increases gained through CP. In other words, you could actually see these small bonuses. If all stats increased by x10, there would be few complaints - mostly concerning aesthetics. Upon closer inspection, however, there is much more going on. @angelyn‌ has posted some great information on the comparison between live and 1.6 stats. Also, check out these photos from @Jennifur_Vultee‌. From these posts, we can see that magicka and stamina increased by x9, and health by x7. Set bonuses and enchants have increased seemingly arbitrarily. Most strikingly, the relative spell power and crit chance bonuses on set items have been halved.

Here, ZOS responds that we will be able to make up these losses through CP that provide attribute, regen, power, and crit bonuses. In the meantime, however, many of us will receive at most 70 CP when 1.6 goes live - far from enough to re-achieve stats that compare with 1.5.8. Moreover, many players will have to invest their early CP in constellations that provide damage mitigation and similar bonuses to help with mere survivability. Taking all this together, many players including myself feel that the number inflation serves to hide stat decreases relative to the live version. We see that the day 1.6 goes live, we will have to engage in a months-long and excruciating CP grind just to be able to complete content that we've already done 10's or 100's of times.

How many players are just now reaching the upper veteran levels and can finally engage in City of Ash helm runs? How many of them will get a helm with the Exploration trait and no shoulders? How many of them will be unable to complete CoA when 1.6 goes live? How many players have completed Sanctum Ophidiae (SO) a handful of times and have half complete sets of SO drops? How many will be unable to get past the Mantikora again for another month? How many will actually bother to complete the content when the set bonuses are paltry compared with crafted gear?
These are the questions that ZOS has not asked itself nor the community of gamers who have pledged themselves to making the most out of this game.

Most importantly, many dedicated testers are at a loss when investigating whether these stat adjustments have truly balanced the game in a productive way. Instead, they are busy trying to figure out where precisely they have lost power and where they have gained power. They're too busy figuring out how to compare their numbers to live instead of actually doing meaningful comparisons.

What we players want to know is: WHY?. We did not did not ask for this, and we are confused as to why ZOS feels these massive changes are necessary. Looking over the patch notes, we see no justification. The changes to ultimate generation, for example, happened for many reasons. Forcing players to light attack cuts down on block-casting while making us less able to spam our ultimate abilities. However, this is information that we had to infer, and comes from the community lodging their complaints on this forum and elsewhere. Changes to the buff system however, are puzzling. Why shouldn't Critical Surge stack with 2Handed Momentum? Why shouldn't the health regen from activating Radiant Aura stack with DK Green Dragon Blood? More importantly, If I am a Sorcerer running both Inner Light and Critical Surge (which many will do because they don't like pets), their 3-effect spell-power, spell-crit, and restore mana potions will only restore magicka, making them just above 25% more effective than what can be bought through the crown store. What bothers us players is not that the mechanics are different from 1.5.8. What bothers us is that we do not see why these changes were implemented, and ZOS has offered us no explanation.

With so many other changes coming our way, we are not only clueless, we are suspicious. I hate to break it to you, but ZOS does not have the credibility to pull this off. ZOS is not Blizzard, ZOS is not even Bethesda. Since the game's release, ZOS has failed to fix minor issues & bugs while going back on its word regarding B2P. Many in the gaming community do no see this company as reliable nor capable of managing ESO. The changes we see heading our way seem tailored to console players, and we suspect that many will quit a few weeks after realizing that they're not playing "Skyrim: Online" or a game even remotely similar to it.

When 1.6 goes live, players will log in to find that they are significantly less powerful, that their builds and gear are worthless, and their most-used abilities are foreign to them. More importantly, they will not understand why. Many players who participate in end-game content are already frustrated and bored, having stowed away complete sets of high-end gear in their banks. All the Former Emperors running around Cyrodiil are tired of farming AP just to remain on the leaderboards and get rewards they already have. They will not see a level playing field or a challenging end-game. They will see a grind for CP. Many will quit. There is no enjoyment in grinding along in the hopes that new content will become available in June.

Plain and simple, this update is too much at once. I think many players could handle a x10 stat inflation were it not for the rebalanced stats. Conversely, they might enjoy the rebalancing if not for the inflated numbers. However, we see you increasing the difficulty of dungeons while decreasing our power relative to our current 1.5.8 stats. The 70 CP will not be enough to cover our losses. What I suggest is save most of the rebalancing for later, when you get rid of veteran levels. By then we players will have accrued enough CP that the stat rebalancing will not hurt as much - after all, there will have to be big changes when I revert from V14 to 50. We will be expecting changes then, and we will be in a place to look forward to them.

I totally agree here. Too many changes all at once. Heck might as well shelve your current character or characters that you have leveled up and structured builds for the best performance and just start a new one. Then figure out whats going on and how to best build that new character. I would of much rather seen new adventure zones not his major restructure to the game.

eventide03b14a_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@baratron‌
We barely can find a tank because tanks are not viable, with the exception of a tank built for an exclusive usage in the high end PVE contents. Ever tried to play a tank in Cyrodiil for instance? Many of the tanks of my guild have quit the game a few months after the game was released.

With 1.6, and all the changes made to the armor rating, being a tank looks more viable. If this is indeed the case, the champion system will provide a mean for the tanks to be better in their role. I think we should see more tanks in the game, not less.

I think you're mistaken. To be a tank in this game means you are sacrificing something else. Tanks are essential to groups sure, but honestly you only need one. That's a 1:4 ratio, and in trials it's even worse, maybe 2 out of 24 people to tank. You really think people are going to scramble to spec a dedicated role that basically pigeonholes them into doing that one thing only? If so you are far more optimistic than I am.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Don't assume that you speak for me.

Maverick827

Why are so many people hung up on a minor wording issue in the thread title?

Dear ZOS - many of your players are frustrated with 1.6, and here's why

Did you really think the OP was under the impression that literally every player agreed with him?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Im not so much upset and tired of waiting. Get on with it. Put 1.6 out already. I want to be able to play again. I dont care about the changes. Ill figure that out. Few balance issues? Those can be dealt with after the live servers have been patched and before the March 17th relaunch.

Paramanza

I actually love that they're making the game more difficult. Its too easy in 1.5 to make an overpowered build. I want them to make it harder, so I have to sweat and really bring my A game. What I don't understand is the x10 stat scaling. Why make everything more confusing to the eye? They should take it all back down a decimal point and round to the nearest integer. Surely the fractional difference means nothing in real terms?

Seraphyel

You know why it's harder with 1.6? Because their new scaling doesn't work.

Praxxos

Domander wrote: »

Please don't assume you speak for me.

THIS!!! I just love 1.6! All features of it!

nuclear808

I am really disappointed with 1.6...being a beta player and having 2 vr14 toons...I now want to level the bow skill line on my templar but now finding it impossible because of the exp nerf on spellscar..

I am trying to give the new changes a chance because I do know that things change and we all have to adapt but If I am going to have to go through a constant grind struggle to level up a skill line on my mains...I don't think I will be playing too long.

psychounz

I'm actually not frustrated with 1.6 at all, so blanket statement is damaging to those who disagree.

I'm not saying 1.6 is perfect, rather that I'm simply not frustrated with it.

Roechacca

Yes it's frustrating and We warned them it would be which is even more frustrating .