New DPS Calculations

evedgebah

(ABILITY + POWER × 10.46) × COEF

There is a truncation in the above formula so the numbers are a little bit off.

This means that WEAPON/SPELL POWER > ABILITY > CRIT % Bonus.

There ya go.

Special thanks to my guildmates for helping to test with me.

XEVENEX

This is cool and all dude, but can you elaborate a bit? WTF is Ability? It's never that simple either. Whether or not crit rate is better than spell power for example, depens on how much crit vs how much spell power, how much crit you already have, and how much spell power you already have.

I can see you're trying to be helpful, but you're not really.

evedgebah

Ability refers to Magicka or Stamina, it is the game's generic term for these values. The above value statements of relative effectiveness refer to in-slot assessments.

For example, on gear in 1.6: 177 Spell Power is equivalent to 933 (945 on some) Magicka, and 2% (1% on some items) Spell Critical.

For ANY normal Magicka-based skill, 177 Spell Power will provide more damage than 933 Magicka will provide more damage than 2% Spell Critical.

For purposes of comparison, we can remove the COEF value (or make it 1), it's irrelevant here, leaving us with ABILITY + POWER × 10.46. we can already see that 933 Ability is way less than 1777 Power, let alone. Thus, It's better to get as much Power as possible. We can also compare 177 power to 2% critical with an easy example. Let's use 10,000 Magicka and 1600 Spell Power for our example. 10,000 + 1600 × 10.46 = 26,736. 177 extra power gives us 28587.42, which is 1851.42 damage higher.

2% Spell Critical is a 2% chance of dealing and extra ×0.5 damage, or in our case 13,368 damage. However, there is only a 2% chance of this occurring, so it's really an average of 267.36 extra damage with that 2% critical. Even if it were 10% critical, that's only 1,336.8 extra damage on average, still less than our 177 spell power (though more than 933 Magicka would provide).

So this information is not as useless as you say, you just didn't understand it (or, which is possible, I didn't explain it well enough).

Nihil

What Xevenex did say about it not being that simple is still true tho (although this information is far from useless). Due to how this particular formula is set up we are still able to conclude a bit of information from it (which still leads to what you say about equivalent stats on armor and superiority but not as simple). As critical directly multiples the results of the 2 other stats, as you get higher stats in the ability and power category the difference between the 2 for increase in dps becomes less predominant. 2% critical rate (while having 50% increase to crit damage) is a 1 % increase to dps. While 177 spell power is equivalent to 1851 extra damage (in regards to COEF being 1), Thus if we were able to ever bring, ability + spell powerx10.46>185,142, 2 % crit would over take the spell power in damage. As we increase our crit damage this will become a lower target to reach (for sake of easy math 100 % increase to crit damage needing ability +spell powerx10.46 >92,571 for 2 % to come out ahead).

This also shows that for ability = power we would need to have a % increase to our ability of ~98% (I can only recall being able to increase it by ~ 50 % through passives / skills so thus not happening atm), but there might also be other factors involved with ability as ability directly modifies more aspects of the game then just damage (argonian potion passive if I remember correctly, I don't think the damage shield for sors is linked to spell power but to max magicka only and probably more that I can't remember).

As I can't get on to PTS right now I can't get an idea on how close we can get to these stats, but in general I think we will be hard pressed to get our ability and power up to a point where 2 % crit rate will over take 177 spell power.

Gyudan

evedgebah wrote: »

(ABILITY + POWER × 10.46) × COEF

There is a truncation in the above formula so the numbers are a little bit off.

This means that WEAPON/SPELL POWER > ABILITY > CRIT % Bonus.

There ya go.

Special thanks to my guildmates for helping to test with me.

I have done some tests too and I can confirm the 10.46 multiplicator to spell power. Thanks for the input.

Verrask

evedgebah wrote: »

(ABILITY + POWER × 10.46) × COEF

So, you mean (Ability + (Power x 10.46)) x Coefficient? I think that's what you meant - that 10.46 ability points is equivalent to one spell/weapon power point.

Interesting.

evedgebah

The internal parentheses aren't needed due to order of operations if I recall correctly, but its just semantics. I'm glad other people can verify my results.

Gyudan

@evedgebah: did you get the values of the "COEF" for class abilities during your tests?
If you have the numbers in a spreadsheet, it's easy to calculate it with the following formula:
COEF = Ability Damage / (10.46*Spell Damage + Max Magicka)

Here are some numbers on Sorcerer in 1.6.1 among the abilities that follow this formula:

• Crystal Fragments: 0.1541
• Mage's Wrath: 0.0387
• Mage's Wrath proc: 0.1252
• Velocious Curse: 0.1328
• Power overload light attack: 0.1903
• Power overload heavy attack: 0.0751
• Crushing Shock: 0.0915
• Elemental Ring: 0.0619

I'd love to see what DK/NB/Templar numbers look like!

pppontus

Thank you for this. I'll link it in my thread as it makes it obvious that Trial sets are complete trash now

Merlin13KAGL

Just for clarification:

So you're deriving the coefficient from base level skills (with no attribute points spent), I assume?

Where/how are you factoring in the base damage of the weapon itself (for weapon based skills?)

Are damage enchants factored in too, or are they a flat rate bonus after everything else is determined?

Finally, Weapon/Spell power are increased via potions/enchants/gear, correct? (Potion of Weapon Power, for example)

It's irritated me since day one that they had these identifiers on auxiliary attributes without ever really explaining (tooltip or otherwise) WTH they actually mean or do.

evedgebah

I calculated every coefficient with that exact formula. I'll post the results here later today. Destruction/restoration staff add spell power equivalent to the weapon's damage. Gear does exactly what it says. If a glyph adds spell power it adds that number. Same for magicka and stamina and so on.

Tests were conducted with base stats, no attributes added, nopassives, and no PvP buffs. Results were verified by adding power and attribute values to verify proper linearity of scaling. Values were accurate to within ~5 damage, acceptable error in my book since the formulas truncate decimals in actual practice.

Merlin13KAGL

Outstanding. You've put much love into this.

Thankyou.

evedgebah

SKILL			COEF		COEF 2
Backlash		0.459884882	0
	Spell Power does not affect this skill
Razor Caltrops		0.384118407	0.023493481
	Was not rank 4 when tested, calculated for 30 seconds
Caltrops		0.384118407	0
Liquid Lightning	0.173146952	0.117115001
Lightnig Flood		0.165629038	0.117115001
Lightning Splash	0.15740632	0.117115001
Eruption		0.232585458	0.039938917
Thundering Presence	0.243157524	0
Radiant Oppression 100%	0.281216962	0
Radiant Oppression 75%	0.271173499	0
Radiant Oppression 50%	0.241043111	0
Cinder Storm		0.232585458	0
Infectious Claw		0.054974745	0.174439093
Solar Flare		0.220368848	0
Volatile Familiar	0.019969458	0.2
Unstable Flame		0.051803125	0.162868554
Crippling Grasp		0.029954188	0.176788441
Assassin's Blade	0.201104194	0
Merciless Resolve	0.200281922	0
Radiant Destruction	0.194526019	0
Searing Strikes		0.051803125	0.138024198
Ash Cloud		0.186068366	0
Assassin's Will		0.179960061	0
Trap Beast		0.049923646	0.127217197
Vampire's Bane		0.062140256	0.108070011
Cripple			0.16962293	0
Lethal Arrow		0.154822037	0.01174674
Mage's Fury		0.03888171	0.124985317
Trapping Web		0.062492658	0.09996476
Shadow Silk		0.062492658	0.09996476
Tangeling Webs		0.062492658	0.09996476
Poison Arrow		0.062140256	0.099847292
Torching Flare		0.161165277	0
Dark Talons		0.059908375	0.09996476
Puncturing Strikes	0.158580994	0
Lightning Form		0.158580994	0
Snipe			0.154822037	0
Inevitable Detonation	0.154822037	0
Rending Blades		0.029719253	0.124515447
Dizzying		0.153999765	0
Twin Slashes		0.026077763	0.124515447
Blood Craze		0.026077763	0.124515447
Magicka Detonation	0.149888406	0
Proximity Detonation	0.149888406	0
Wrecking		0.149653471	0
Crystal Shard		0.149653471	0
Howl of Despair		0.149301069	0
Twisting Path		0.145659579	0
Piercing Howl		0.144954775	0
Sun's Fire		0.062140256	0.07506167
Vigor			0.134617644	0
Destructive Touch	0.059908375	0.071890051
Force Pulse		0.09091977	0.038999178
Daedric Curse		0.129096676	0
Volocious Curse		0.129096676	0
Daedric Prey		0.124985317	0
Burning Talons		0.059203571	0.058498767
	0.09996476(Synergy)
Entropy			0.0904499	0.027369905
Cleave			0.051803125	0.065781746
Firey Breath		0.024903089	0.091624574
Scalding Rune		0.071890051	0.03935158
	(Was not Rank 4)
Prolonged Suffering	0.110184424	0
Path of Darkness	0.108070011	0
Acid Spray		0.069893105	0.035945025
Veiled Strike		0.103253847	0
Blazing Spear		0.05697169	0.044402678
Elemental Ring		0.062140256	0.037002232
Lava Whip		0.093034183	0
Funnel Health		0.093034183	0
Swallow Soul		0.093034183	0
Feral Pounce		0.092681781	0
Force Shock		0.09091977	0
Heroic Slash		0.0904499	0
Focused Charge		0.100588805	0
Hidden Blade*		0.089980031	0
Pounce			0.089980031	0
Strife			0.089980031	0
Winged Twilight		0.069893105	0.017473276
Lotus Fan		0.037472101	0.049806179
Splitting Trap*		0.08457653	0
Flurry			0.022201339	0.062257723
Puncture		0.082697052	0
Silver Bolts		0.082697052	0
Teleport Strike		0.082697052	0
Soul Trap		0.082227182	0
Aurora Javelin		0.079084929	0
Magnum Shot*		0.077763421	0
Shield C		0.077528486	0
Daedric Mines		0.077528486	0
Consuming		0.074591801	0
Agony			0.074591801	0
Fire Rune		0.074474333	0
Obsidian Shield		0.074474333	0
Power Slam		0.069893105	0
Arrow Spray		0.069893105	0
Crit Charge		0.069775637	0
Scatter			0.067191354	0
Elemental Blockade	0.062375191	0
Impulse			0.062140256	0
Stone Fist		0.062140256	0
Stone Giant 		0.062140256	0
Inferno			0.061552919	0
Streak			0.059908375	0
Dark Shades		0.059908375	0
Un. Wall of Elements* 	0.034652884	0.022906144
	BUG: RANK 1 LASTS 6 SECONDS
Power Extraction	0.05697169	0
Executioner		051803125	0
Whirlwind		0.051803125	0
Firey Grip		0.051803125	0
Scorched Earth		0.015740632	0.035945025
Inner Fire		0.051450722	0
Sap Essence		0.050276048	0
Reverberating Bash	0.049923646	0
Inhale			0.049923646	0
Petrify			0.049923646	0
Drain Power		0.049923646	0
Fragmented Shield	0.046986961	0
Brutal Punce		0.046282157	0
Shattering Prison	0.042405732	0
Shadow Image		0.039938917	0
Wall of Elements	0.034652884	0
Shades			0.029954188	0
Blade Cloak		0.024903089	0
Unstable Familiar	0.019969458	0.002995419
Spiked Armor		0.018324915	0
Volley			0.015740632	0
Expert Hunter		0.00399859	0	
Necrotic Orb		0.071067779	-0.09996476
Mystic Orb		0.071067779	-0.09996476
Siphon			-0.00904499	0
Momentum		-0.01491836	-0.023141078
Burning Light		-0.027487372	0
Blessing of Protection	-0.077528486	0
Steadfast Ward		-0.0904499	0
Grand Healing		-0.093738987	0
Blessing of Restoration	-0.100317162	0
Healing Ritual		-0.12392811	0
Echoing Vigor		-0.13884647	0
Breath			-0.149888406	0
Lingering		-0.119934218	-0.029954188
Energy Orb		-0.06695642	-0.09996476
Resolving Vigor		-0.179725126	0
Ext. Ritual		-0.18994479	0
Hircine's Bounty	-0.239985904	0
Regeneration		-0.241630448	0
Rapid Regen		-0.274873723	0
Harness			-0.340185598	-0.029954188
	(Second value is Magicka Restore)
Mutagen			-0.241630448	-0.082697052

Max2497

evedgebah wrote: »

Ability refers to Magicka or Stamina, it is the game's generic term for these values. The above value statements of relative effectiveness refer to in-slot assessments.

For example, on gear in 1.6: 177 Spell Power is equivalent to 933 (945 on some) Magicka, and 2% (1% on some items) Spell Critical.

For ANY normal Magicka-based skill, 177 Spell Power will provide more damage than 933 Magicka will provide more damage than 2% Spell Critical.

For purposes of comparison, we can remove the COEF value (or make it 1), it's irrelevant here, leaving us with ABILITY + POWER × 10.46. we can already see that 933 Ability is way less than 1777 Power, let alone. Thus, It's better to get as much Power as possible. We can also compare 177 power to 2% critical with an easy example. Let's use 10,000 Magicka and 1600 Spell Power for our example. 10,000 + 1600 × 10.46 = 26,736. 177 extra power gives us 28587.42, which is 1851.42 damage higher.

2% Spell Critical is a 2% chance of dealing and extra ×0.5 damage, or in our case 13,368 damage. However, there is only a 2% chance of this occurring, so it's really an average of 267.36 extra damage with that 2% critical. Even if it were 10% critical, that's only 1,336.8 extra damage on average, still less than our 177 spell power (though more than 933 Magicka would provide).

So this information is not as useless as you say, you just didn't understand it (or, which is possible, I didn't explain it well enough).

Your calculations are spot on. Thanks for figuring this out.

Septimus_Magna

Numbers look great, good job! I have calculated the numbers for Hardened Ward as well, it only scales of magicka so for example: 31818 magicka * COEF = 9949 damage shield (its increased by another 33% on self).

COEF Hardened Ward IV = 0.312684

Nightreaver

First off, thank you @evedgebah for all the time, work and effort put into this and more thanks for sharing. VERY much appreciated. Only wish there was an option to tag both Insightful and Awesome to your posts.

May be a bit of a noob question but where does spell penetration fit in?
Is there a point where spell penetration becomes a better option compared to power? To ability? To crit?

evedgebah

Penetration is a point I am actively working on, long story short, it does not seem to be working correctly on the PTS at the moment.

Ezareth

Penetration is completely jacked up. I did some testing myself and all I can say is, Spell Resistance is a worthless stat ( =

evedgebah

I reported it as a bug and posted about it in the Bugs section of this forum. Values are half (the constellation bonus) or less (Sharpened is only ×0.02 it's Tip) than they should be.

Ezareth

Spell penetration has *never* been even remotely functional, the tooltips may has well have been face rolled by a dev.

I'd share all of my findings on this but considering the last change they made to sharpened didn't fix anything and just ended up nerfing Sorcs I'm loathe to offer more information as this can only hurt casters with the way they structured spell resistance.

Needless to say it is now possible to once again "break" penetration and actually end up with a bonus damage modifier by doing so.

oddsmaker

Any theories/ideas as to WHY to multiplier of POWER is 10.46? This seems like such an arbitrary number to me, but it's clearly the one they chose.

evedgebah

No idea. Lots of their math doesn't make sense to me, I just figure it out.

Septimus_Magna

oddsmaker wrote: »

Any theories/ideas as to WHY to multiplier of POWER is 10.46? This seems like such an arbitrary number to me, but it's clearly the one they chose.

Probably because for example spell power only gives stronger spells, so you get about 10x the damage compared to magicka. Otherwise it had no use increasing spell power because magicka also increases the size of the resource pool. They tweaked the number to come to a somewhat balanced system.

Jaerlach

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Outstanding. You've put much love into this.

Thankyou.

Al is the greatest.

Source: guildmate

Yuke

Thank you so much for calculating these things. Just proves perfectly how much magicka dks got nerfed with 1.6