The Balanced Fun Fair Werewolf of eso

Chrlynsch

BUCKLE UP!!!

+Remove the timer completely:
-The timer puts a limit on fun. Seeing as werewolf is not over powered we should have no reason to limit the fun.

+Feral pounce now taunts target:
-Play like we want to play. Except if you want to be a werewolf tank.

+Devour no longer heals but increases all regen by 50% for 1 min:
-Devour is a chore as of now, make it something we WANT to do.
-(PVP) Possibly make it so devoured corpses cannot be resurrected.

+Remove ultimate bonus generation for werewolf slotted/human stam regeneration.
-With too many people taking WW for extra stam recovery and ultimate gen this will only make things worse 1.6 nerf it or remove it

+Make us a little harder to kill:
-Vamps have damage mitigation, give Werewolves extra dodge chance. Instead of blood rage. Somewhere around 15% would be great. Animation looks pretty cool already

+Force WW to be on your primary bar or at least one bar at all times:
-if your a werewolf your a werewolf. Not a choice willy-nilly/fickle-pickle. Hopefully will cut down on the whole I'm a werewolf because meh. Keep it more risk/reward.

+Make Werewolves vulnerable to poison 25% in both forms:
-50% poison damage is ridiculous. Here is a novel idea remove it completely never been a lore thing. We are already taking extra damage from Fighter's Guild passives and skills in pvp, we aren't that effective at block casting. Add silver weapons to the game yo. Glyph or trait... (trait would be cool for hunters though)

+Add a sneak animation/ ability to sneak:
-Created by the "huntsman of the princes"... yet we can't hunt... ZOS should of had a V8.

+Keep a ultimate cost/more importantly the ultimate dump as a "cool down":
-Right now reverting from werewolf form drops any ultimate earned while in form. This is perfect as it will act as a cooldown on swapping in and out of form and stops possible exploiting of Werewolf transformation fear. Gives the body a time to recover.

+Update salvation set with weapon damage buff instead of all stamina and increased damage of Werewolf skills:
-Werewolves now derive strength from attack power. This set made sense when stam was the key player. It no longer is.

+Pack Leader now Negates sprint cost for Nearby Werewolves.
-Encourages werewolf pack runs

+We need more consequences for being werewolves beside combat downfalls.
-Make Werewolf kill on sight in cities. And also attack able by player gaurds in the wilds, you should always be careful who you transform around even in the wilderness.
- With possibly of resting bonuses such as bonus xp being thrown around. Maybe think of cutting from werewolfs and Vampires.

Oronell

All the above plus this consequence: Forced Transformations during Full Moons will keep us on our toes while adding to the experience. This will also help separate the "real" werewolves from those who have simply taken it as a novelty skill.

illusionarythade

^---- All of this

Chrlynsch

Oronell wrote: »

All the above plus this consequence: Forced Transformations during Full Moons will keep us on our toes while adding to the experience. This will also help separate the "real" werewolves from those who have simply taken it as a novelty skill.

I do like this idea. A lot...

Oronell

Prothwata wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

All the above plus this consequence: Forced Transformations during Full Moons will keep us on our toes while adding to the experience. This will also help separate the "real" werewolves from those who have simply taken it as a novelty skill.

I do like this idea. A lot...

I've been a proponent of this ever since another player made the suggestion. It will bring ALOT of activity to the game especially with the Justice System in place. I can see Werewolves "packing up" during every full moon for protection and I'm sure player guards will form groups to hunt them down.

Chrlynsch

Oronell wrote: »

I've been a proponent of this ever since another player made the suggestion. It will bring ALOT of activity to the game especially with the Justice System in place. I can see Werewolves "packing up" during every full moon for protection and I'm sure player guards will form groups to hunt them down.

This would be most fantastic! It really is only a couple of hours once a week. I can see werewolves not only packing up for survival but also to terrorize. Player gaurds grouping up with their lethal arrows, silver bolts, camouflage hunters. RPers would love this, and I for one would as well!

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

I've been a proponent of this ever since another player made the suggestion. It will bring ALOT of activity to the game especially with the Justice System in place. I can see Werewolves "packing up" during every full moon for protection and I'm sure player guards will form groups to hunt them down.

This would be most fantastic! It really is only a couple of hours once a week. I can see werewolves not only packing up for survival but also to terrorize. Player gaurds grouping up with their lethal arrows, silver bolts, camouflage hunters. RPers would love this, and I for one would as well!

So for the sake of RP, people playing a WW would be unable to clear their inventory or quest normaly because they would be attacked by guards or unable to communicate with merchants during night. Not to mention the issue with spawn locations, damaged gear and anything else involving social interactions with players or NPCs.

I understand the justice system should affect WWs/Vamps in some ways or another, I totaly agree with that. But a player should also be able to choose his actions and he should not be forced into an activity he doesn't want to be involved with.

The best compromise I can find between your suggestion and something that doesn't violate a players freedom would be to make the Beast Form (ultimate) last indefinitely during Bloodmoons. This way you can still organise WWs raids on cities while players who don't want to be involved can do their stuff without beeing penalized...

Chrlynsch

@Brasseurfb16_ESO‌ you'll note that we have already suggested that we would have perma wolf available to us. So having it occur only on a bloodmoon isn't that thrilling. As we would already hypothetically have perma form available.

What we were discussing were other possible Cons that could be given to the condition besides just combat related weaknesses. The fact that 2 out of 168 hours in the week is not bad, we are talking about 1% of all time... If you don't like Werewolf... don't be a werewolf that there is your player freedom.

We can't have our cake and eat it to.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

@Brasseurfb16_ESO‌ you'll note that we have already suggested that we would have perma wolf available to us. So having it occur only on a bloodmoon isn't that thrilling. As we would already hypothetically have perma form available.

What we were discussing were other possible Cons that could be given to the condition besides just combat related weaknesses. The fact that 2 out of 168 hours in the week is not bad, we are talking about 1% of all time... If you don't like Werewolf... don't be a werewolf that there is your player freedom.

We can't have our cake and eat it to.

I know what you people are discussing about,

I'm just trying to explain that your suggestion doesn't work in a game like this because you have to satisfy the majority of players and not just a small minority of hardcore RPers (By the way, lorewise : not all WWs suffer from forced transformation during nights).

I also don't know where you get your numbers, but last time I checked, a day cycle in game was about 5 hours. We are speaking about 4 to 5 night periods, per day (IRL), in which you would be handicaped to compete in a single activity with any characters affected by lycanthropy.

So, if a guy happens to like his WW character but can't play more than 1-2 hours a day and connect himself to the game during night, basicaly he can't do anything else with any of his WW characters even if he had something else in mind.

I just can't support that kind of ideas, it is way to troublesome to implement and it goes against the core satisfactory elements of gameplay in this MMO.

EDIT : But I would support an optional PvP event in the world, which would support that kind of mechanics and take advantage out of the justice system.

Xupacabra

Playing as ww in pvp is resumed to 5 sec fight and the rest of the time looking for dead bodies to mantain the ww form. Not enjoyable

biodragon

Werewolf skill line should have way more "configuration" options:

- buff trading: human<->wolf: eg. -10% to HP, MP, SP in human and +10% to all stats in werewolf in exchange

-"loyality" skills: eg. more often transforms - time spend in wolf form compared to human form - more time you can spend at next transform without food.

- Skill altering: eg. Devour - could: heal you at instant OR give you HoT buff OR rise your armor OR rise your attack.

- cosmetic options: eg. you prefer evolve to fury humanoid with wolf head or big daedric wolf ? White fur, grey or black ?

- more RP and simply fun options: eg. Endless Hunger passive - your main form is werewolf, you can be human for max. 15 min after that you have to devour something to be able back to human form again. Werewolf skills are reduced to 50% of their original power (power can be restored for 30s by devouring).

My point is: do not specialize werewolf for specific task.
If player is hardcore RP allow him to be wolf all the time for a price.
If player want use WW only for faster ultimate gaining - it is a waste - but that is his choice
If player want be "invincible" as WW - allow him to reduce or remove poison damage and rise other stats but in exchange make human version very weak and clumsy.

Chrlynsch

Xupacabra wrote: »

Playing as ww in pvp is resumed to 5 sec fight and the rest of the time looking for dead bodies to mantain the ww form. Not enjoyable

No doubt especially when if targets rez or release, you get no bonus time from devour.

Auricle

So, what if you could use WW normally during times that weren't the full moon, but you were forced to change with the full moon? I'd love to hear from ZoS to see if that's even a possibility, or if it's a programming nightmare...

Chrlynsch

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

@Brasseurfb16_ESO‌ you'll note that we have already suggested that we would have perma wolf available to us. So having it occur only on a bloodmoon isn't that thrilling. As we would already hypothetically have perma form available.

What we were discussing were other possible Cons that could be given to the condition besides just combat related weaknesses. The fact that 2 out of 168 hours in the week is not bad, we are talking about 1% of all time... If you don't like Werewolf... don't be a werewolf that there is your player freedom.

We can't have our cake and eat it to.

I know what you people are discussing about,

I'm just trying to explain that your suggestion doesn't work in a game like this because you have to satisfy the majority of players and not just a small minority of hardcore RPers (By the way, lorewise : not all WWs suffer from forced transformation during nights).

I also don't know where you get your numbers, but last time I checked, a day cycle in game was about 5 hours. We are speaking about 4 to 5 night periods, per day (IRL), in which you would be handicaped to compete in a single activity with any characters affected by lycanthropy.

So, if a guy happens to like his WW character but can't play more than 1-2 hours a day and connect himself to the game during night, basicaly he can't do anything else with any of his WW characters even if he had something else in mind.

I just can't support that kind of ideas, it is way to troublesome to implement and it goes against the core satisfactory elements of gameplay in this MMO.

EDIT : But I would support an optional PvP event in the world, which would support that kind of mechanics and take advantage out of the justice system.

As you are correct with many a thing good sir, there are some things that need to be adjusted...

1. Elders scrolls online is a mmorpg. Role playing game. Casual or hardcore it's still a rpg.

2. The majority of players are not werewolves.

3. Lorewise, the strain of Werewolf that every single PC in the game comes from is in fact bound to the moon. NPC Werewolves that are able to infect us appear only during the full moon cycle in game. Common sense is that these werewolves are forced to transform during the moon. This leads me to explain my math to you.

4. You are correct in the day cycle length in game what your missing is the fact that the game actually has functioning moon cycles, as in waxing and waning. The game only has one true full moon(s) which occurs once every 8+ days for roughly 2 hours. Though NPC Werewolves spawn around the full moon for about 1.5 RL days.

5....

6. Profit!

Chrlynsch

Auricle wrote: »

So, what if you could use WW normally during times that weren't the full moon, but you were forced to change with the full moon? I'd love to hear from ZoS to see if that's even a possibility, or if it's a programming nightmare...

Yea! That's what we want to see! How cool would that be?

Oronell

Prothwata wrote: »

4. You are correct in the day cycle length in game what your missing is the fact that the game actually has functioning moon cycles, as in waxing and waning. The game only has one true full moon(s) which occurs once every 8+ days for roughly 2 hours. Though NPC Werewolves spawn around the full moon for about 1.5 RL days.

Exactly! Two hours of transformation would be fun but 1.5 RL days would be even better imo. Hours or a day either way, if vampires can deal with stages 24-7 werewolves should be able to deal with it once a week as a trade off to having complete control (toggle and/or no timer) over the transformation every other time. This is Elder Scrolls and its all about the experience.

Note: I've also suggested anti-transformation potions as an option for those not wanting to "unleash the beast" every full moon. However, I personally feel that the ingredients for these potions should be extremely difficult to obtain, which means the potions would cost an arm and a leg.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

As you are correct with many a thing good sir, there are some things that need to be adjusted...

Prothwata wrote: »

1. Elders scrolls online is a mmorpg. Role playing game. Casual or hardcore it's still a rpg.

The word "roleplay" is so vague you could use it in so many contextual situations that it isn't even worth debating around this since it will depend on people own interpretation of "what is roleplay".

Prothwata wrote: »

2. The majority of players are not werewolves.

Min/maxers all play Werewolves for the 15% stamina regen bonus and the Ult/on hit, some people play it for its alternative form of gameplay and an even smaller portion of the community use it for "roleplay". So who cares if the majority of players are not werewolves.

Prothwata wrote: »

3. Lorewise, the strain of Werewolf that every single PC in the game comes from is in fact bound to the moon. NPC Werewolves that are able to infect us appear only during the full moon cycle in game. Common sense is that these werewolves are forced to transform during the moon. This leads me to explain my math to you.

Can I see your source on that? Last time I checked mine, by playing the game, you had at least 4 different sources of WWs in game.
a) Beeing the Ferals as you describe which are those infected by lycantrophy and unable to control their transformation. We don't have any informations about those werewolves. They are most likely people that refused to worship Hircine or didn't know what was happening to them until it was too late. (Bangkorai has a quest which might demonstrate this point)
b) Beeing the Woodelves under the leadership of the Hound, which get their powers directly by an aspect of Hircine. They are not influenced by the cycle of the two moons and change at will.
c) Beeing the Bretons under the influence of Faolchu , which himself is indirectly under the influence of Molag Bal. Again showing no sign of forced transformation during the cycle of the two moons, but rather they seem to have control over it unless you use the relic of Hircine to force transformation over them.
d) Beeing you or any other players affected by Lycanthropy which has proven themself in the hunting grounds with a honorable hunt and beeing granted the blessing of Hircine by one of his aspects.

It has been explained many times in the lore that Hircine favours his worshipers by granting them more power over their transformation, usualy under the form of a relic (like the Saviors Hide, or the ring of Hircine). High esteemed packleaders are even granted the ability to shift at will between their Werewolf form or even undertake the transformation into a full quadrupedal wolf.

Prothwata wrote: »

4. You are correct in the day cycle length in game what your missing is the fact that the game actually has functioning moon cycles, as in waxing and waning. The game only has one true full moon(s) which occurs once every 8+ days for roughly 2 hours. Though NPC Werewolves spawn around the full moon for about 1.5 RL days.

I know about the cycle of the moons, I just didn't catch that part in your response to my previous post, thats why I didn't understood how you got 2/168.

Prothwata wrote: »

6. Profit!

For whom?

Chrlynsch

@BRASSEURFB16_ESO‌ first of all great discussion, you definitely know your lore and information. It still seams like your misreading/understanding some of my points

1. Gonna leave this one alone

2. Here you bring the fact that min/maxers are WW for the ultimate gain and stam regen as right now there is no downside to being a WW in human form, but it looks like you missed the part where I have removed those 2 things from the game in my original post leaving their opinion mute. Let alone that min/maxers are also a minority in this game or any game for that matter.

3. Here you have some great examples of other contacts with WWs. Though unfortunately you missed the part where I said the only way PC (player characters) to get the disease in the game is by the wild full moon cycle werewolfs or a bite from someone who got a scrape from said werewolf. Not saying that NPC have different ways of getting lycanthropy.

4. Glad you see where I'm coming from

6. Underpants gnomes

Chrlynsch

biodragon wrote: »

My point is: do not specialize werewolf for specific task.
If player is hardcore RP allow him to be wolf all the time for a price.
If player want use WW only for faster ultimate gaining - it is a waste - but that is his choice
If player want be "invincible" as WW - allow him to reduce or remove poison damage and rise other stats but in exchange make human version very weak and clumsy.

This is a cool idea, make it tie to the ultimate skill/morphs in particular. Maybe something along these lines?

All have NO timer, and ultimate is slotted in primary slot at all times.

Werewolf: 50% poison damage in Werewolf form. Bleed damage on light attacks. Damage slightly increased from current state.

Bezerker: Gain ultimate on hit, Stam regen in both forms, 50% poison damage in both forms. Increased bleed damage on light attack. 5% increase to stats in both forms.

Alpha: Gains a 15% increase to ALL stats in werewolf form, bleed on light attack, and -10% in human form. 25% weakness to poison in both forms.

This gives a Option for different players.
Werewolf: Player that wants the ability to shift but no consequences or perks in human form.
Bezerker: Used rage and boiling blood to fuel both their damage in wolf form but also in human form. Min maxers looking for an edge in human form. (notice poison damage in both forms, this is broken now and hope it is fixed with 1.6)
Alpha: Player looking to spend most of combat in form because they are hircine's pup and have embraced their contion taking a hit on humanity.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

@BRASSEURFB16_ESO‌ first of all great discussion, you definitely know your lore and information. It still seams like your misreading/understanding some of my points

2. Here you bring the fact that min/maxers are WW for the ultimate gain and stam regen as right now there is no downside to being a WW in human form, but it looks like you missed the part where I have removed those 2 things from the game in my original post leaving their opinion mute. Let alone that min/maxers are also a minority in this game or any game for that matter.

Ok, lets go by your words and say Min/maxers aren't included in your suggestion.

It leaves 2 big categories of WWs :
a) Beeing the people liking the beast form for its gameplay "combat" interaction.
b) Beeing the people liking the beast form for its social "roleplay" interaction.

I suppose we can both agree a single person can be in none or multiple of these categories.

Right now, the roleplayers don't have much incentive to play as a WW since its duration is very short (unless near an Hircine Shrine) and leaves no room for durable social activities. Which I totaly agree with you and this part can use some form of improvement.

You suggest to make the WW ultimate a permanent toggle, which I'm not against it since the transformation has its drawbacks and works like a 3th weapon slot (at the cost of an ultimate).

Gameplay wise again, I agree with you the current vulnerability is to much important while in beast form (the Devs actualy stated, on a vampire post, the vulnerability was causing a lot of issues in dongeons and they were going to revamp those values). And I agree again with you, the transformation should be an alternative way of playing the game and not a way to get free stamina and ultimate with no drawbacks, so it should also affect the humanoid form.

But I disagree when you say forced transformation and forced to slot only because I believe it is possible to improve the game around your own ideas in this suggestion without causing drawbacks to people that actualy don't care about "roleplaying".

let me put it into another context :
a sport teacher gives 2 similar balls to 2 students, student A plays basketball, student B (doesn't like basketball and) can't play soccers because the school doesn't have the requiere equipement for that kind of activity.

So student B makes a suggestion to the sport teacher to add sockers activity.

If that teacher adds the requiere equipement the next day on top of the existing basketball equipement, should student A be forced to play sockers (if he doesn't like it) because student B asked for soccers? Or should they instead have the choice to play however they want since their current tools gives them the option to choose between 2 activities?

Giving more options is for me the way to go.

Prothwata wrote: »

3. Here you have some great examples of other contacts with WWs. Though unfortunately you missed the part where I said the only way PC (player characters) to get the disease in the game is by the wild full moon cycle werewolfs or a bite from someone who got a scrape from said werewolf. Not saying that NPC have different ways of getting lycanthropy.

I understand your point of vue, but the Werewolf condition is more of a mystical thing in the TES serie. We indeed got bitten by a random Werewolf in the wild and got inflicted by Sanies Lupus, and the sickness normaly turns you into a Werewolf. But it isn't the only way to become a Werewolf (lorewise).

But we also showed great prowess and peaked hircine interest during the hunting grounds (and also in Bangkorai during one of the quest where you have to retake the Wiresses grounds). So we are not just a rabid werewolf going wild, we are hunters and we are granted the privilege to change "at will" by Hircine.

So in this regard I think we shouldn't even be affected by fullmoon cycle since we already proved ourselves as hunters (even if Hircine calls us pup )

Prothwata wrote: »

6. Underpants gnomes

I knew it!

Chrlynsch

@Brasseurfb16_ESO‌ Good stuff, I can see where you come from personal opinion and lore wise when it comes to a forced transformation, and were it might have a difficult place in a MMO

Though personally I do feel like once you become a werewolf, see it as a gift or a curse, you do loose part of yourself. This is why I like the idea of loosing the choice for one of your ultimate slots.

There needs to be different consequences to becoming a werewolf other then @ZOS's current approach (make them do less damage, and more squishy). Seriously you know its bad when if you nerf/decrease the werewolf's timer you in turn buff the overall damage the player can do in a fight .

I do appreciate how you understand the exploit that current werewolves have with human form Werewolf bonuses, that have no loss for the gain.

If you haven't checked it out, I made a comment a little further up on @biodragon post about changing the Ultimate skill for the werewolf in order to give different options for different types of players. Would love to hear your input on these ideas!


On a sidenote, I never really have seen soccer spelled socker, where might you be from?

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

On a sidenote, I never really have seen soccer spelled socker, where might you be from?

I'm from Belgium, but yeah, didn't got time to correct everything I've writen but I will edit that part.

Jitterbug