Too late to lock the number of crafts each character can have?

KBKB

Think about the current state of crafting, all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

Other MMOs did it for a reason and it worked fairly well keeping the market and need for certain crafts in check, I think personally that's where ZOS had a major blunder in opening up EVERY SINGLE craft to EVERY SINGLE player.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution? something like say "specializing" in certain crafts to further quality/able to be crafted sets.

Preyfar

I ponder that, too. There's zero need for sales/trade of play crafted items. Occasionally you'll find somebody who needs things made, but my VR14 has every craft maxed, skilled and point, all three sub class skills AND three main weapon trees.

And I STILL have points left over. I can craft/make everything I need. Doesn't matter what it is, I've got it (exception to Nirnhoned and a few Dwarven pages). I imagine most other players are in the same boat.

Crafters are entirely self sufficient, and there's almost no need to go to another crafter unless you're looking for a trait and/or just don't care about crafting yourself.

Slurg

I don't think it's broken. I like that we have the choice to specialize in all crafts, or some, or none at all, on each and every character we create. I would not want to be forced to buy everything from someone who wants my choices restricted so they can make more profit. There are people out there who choose not to craft everything and buy the things they need. I know this to be true because I make plenty of money crafting and selling yellow glyphs for more than material cost.

DeLindsay

H3LL NO! There is nothing at all wrong with any character having the ability to do all crafting professions. You are delusional if you think that capping each character to 2-3 professions will somehow change how the market works and what is sold on said market.

Ourorboros

all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

I'd say this is far from accurate. I sell potions, food, and glyphs all made from mats I farmed. Cost to me was nothing, except the ingredients sold only by grocers. When they sell, it's almost pure profit. I'm sitting on a million gold.

redspecter23

If champion points can be spent on crafting, I think it will move things in the direction the OP is looking for without having to mess with what we already have. A player that puts CP into crafting will do so at the expense of combat which is a very large opportunity cost, making specialized crafters a bit more rare than they are currently.

If for instance there is a CP purchased ability that allows double enchants on an item (probably overpowered but just an example) and that ability was deep in a craft only tree, then a crafter with that ability can charge a premium for his wares.

miahq

It's somewhat restricted by points, unlocking everything in every crafting skill is pretty costly. Of course, if they keep adding points then that will change, but that part of the reason I think they should hold off on adding new points with new releases for a while.

I mean there are ~300 total, at which point you could easily unlock all crafting abilities. Your character just wouldn't be that great in other areas. Or you could just specialize in two and still have plenty left over for other things.

Usually the complaint is people just want to be able to do everything on one character. Well, most games aren't like that. And they shouldn't be. Copying someone else's build shouldn't be just as easy as switching out your skills. How you chose to level and build your character should play a huge role in that as well.

DeLindsay

miahq wrote: »

I mean there are ~300 total, at which point you could easily unlock all crafting abilities. Your character just wouldn't be that great in other areas. Or you could just specialize in two and still have plenty left over for other things.

There's ~323 total Skill Points available right now once the first player reaches Rank 50 in PvP (someone just got 45 recently). Also, you absolutely CAN be viable in several roles while also having full Crafting on the same character, you just have to be frugal with the points and not take things that are meh or not useful at all like Snakeblood in Alchemy. You can get by just fine with 1/3 Keen Eye and tbh not even point that 1/3 into Enchanting because you can see the Runes farther away than 3/3 would even work. Gourmand and Connoisseur in Provision are very meh since it's only 5 min per point and food is VERY cheap.

If you aren't a past Emperor that's several points you won't be using as well. Once you get above ~250 points you can easily do all Crafting + 3 Roles with all abilities + morphs that you use on each of those 3 Roles and all passives for those Roles. At 271 on my main (got 1 more today) I have no points left over but have 100% passives and abilities + Morphs for Tank/DPS/Healer and full Crafting. People need to understand you don't NEED every single ability full morphed at all times to be viable.

That said, there is no reason whatsoever for ZoS to now cap how many Crafting professions each character can have at one time. It won't do anything for the economy, but it WILL p1ss off a ton of players.

miahq

DeLindsay wrote: »

miahq wrote: »

I mean there are ~300 total, at which point you could easily unlock all crafting abilities. Your character just wouldn't be that great in other areas. Or you could just specialize in two and still have plenty left over for other things.

There's ~323 total Skill Points available right now once the first player reaches Rank 50 in PvP (someone just got 45 recently). Also, you absolutely CAN be viable in several roles while also having full Crafting on the same character, you just have to be frugal with the points and not take things that are meh or not useful at all like Snakeblood in Alchemy. You can get by just fine with 1/3 Keen Eye and tbh not even point that 1/3 into Enchanting because you can see the Runes farther away than 3/3 would even work. Gourmand and Connoisseur in Provision are very meh since it's only 5 min per point and food is VERY cheap.

If you aren't a past Emperor that's several points you won't be using as well. Once you get above ~250 points you can easily do all Crafting + 3 Roles with all abilities + morphs that you use on each of those 3 Roles and all passives for those Roles. At 271 on my main (got 1 more today) I have no points left over but have 100% passives and abilities + Morphs for Tank/DPS/Healer and full Crafting. People need to understand you don't NEED every single ability full morphed at all times to be viable.

That said, there is no reason whatsoever for ZoS to now cap how many Crafting professions each character can have at one time. It won't do anything for the economy, but it WILL p1ss off a ton of players.

I don't disagree with that, I simply mean you won't me master of five different combat styles at the same time. You can't be great at everything, nor should you frankly I think there's enough points now they should hold off on adding more in future content, unless you're just adding a ton of news skills.

DeLindsay

Oh for sure, as an example my DPS spec is Magicka based so it meshes well with my Healing spec therefore saving me points. If I wanted to add a sneaky-snipe spec for PvP on top of my 3 standard Roles I would certainly not have enough points to do so while being fully into Crafting. I also agree that they shouldn't add more SP until Wrothgar comes out, which they have said is the next Zone content and it will likely have the standard 3 SP via storyline and 15 Skyshards in zone.

miahq

DeLindsay wrote: »

Oh for sure, as an example my DPS spec is Magicka based so it meshes well with my Healing spec therefore saving me points. If I wanted to add a sneaky-snipe spec for PvP on top of my 3 standard Roles I would certainly not have enough points to do so while being fully into Crafting. I also agree that they shouldn't add more SP until Wrothgar comes out, which they have said is the next Zone content and it will likely have the standard 3 SP via storyline and 15 Skyshards in zone.

If they keep adding even the same 18 SP with each new zone content though that's going to stack up pretty quickly, especially if they aren't adding a good 20-30 new chances for you to use them.

As an aside, are they ever planning on releasing any content that takes place on the actual continent map this year? It would be nice to be able to explore more of the world. And if all of cyrodiil was added-- it would at least get rid of that rather bland and forced shape it has now.

DeLindsay

miahq wrote: »

If they keep adding even the same 18 SP with each new zone content though that's going to stack up pretty quickly, especially if they aren't adding a good 20-30 new chances for you to use them.

As an aside, are they ever planning on releasing any content that takes place on the actual continent map this year? It would be nice to be able to explore more of the world. And if all of cyrodiil was added-- it would at least get rid of that rather bland and forced shape it has now.

It's actually only 8 SP per zone as the 15 Skyshards only net you 5 points. As for on continent content I don't know. Wrothgar is the next Zone to pop and it WILL be this year. It's a solo oriented zone like everything pre-Craglorn. The second zone coming out (probably this year) is a group one like Craglorn but the name escapes me atm. It's a marsh though, and it's all about the Argonians. I figure both are on this continent but I'm not enough of a TES fan to know where the areas are located specifically.

As for places to use any new points. ZoS is adding 4 new AvA abilities in 1.6 and I swear I heard they are expanding the Undaunted passive skill line, but don't quote me on that. Do keep in mind that Spellcrafting is coming too and you can bet that'll take up a huge number of points.

miahq

I've not heard about the undaunted bit, but the pvp skills I know. Really i think that's more an attempt to fix some of the problems more than just new content for the sake of content. They seem intent to break up huge roaming zerg balls... And considering that's the biggest source of lag, I'm all for it. Maybe it will mean they can raise the pop cap again.

But more on topic, even at 8/ new zone it's still going to add up if they don't also keep the new skill option on pace with it. That was my only real point.

KBKB

Hmm I see your points but for example,

Stack of Columbine anywhere between 11-15k
Same for Bugloss
Mountain flower around 8k
Cloud mist 2k

so lets add it up

Selling the raw herbs will yield you around

35-40k

the Pots 40- 44k

That's not really worthy of your time when you can sell the finished result with X amount of banked skill points into to make a measly 4k on top of item costs would be easier to sell the herbs. Because everyone can craft!

Enchanting

Kuta 3.2-3.6k
Kura 500gish
Essence cheap as chips unless its; +spell power + disease damage + physical damage which are around 200g/300g

If you are still selling gold enchants upwards of 4.5k you are doing well as they cost out between 3.8-4.2k

Once again time effort and skill points worth that extra 400g? I'm aware purple chants are slightly more lucrative.

Let us not forgot posting fees, house cuts and COD fees (good people go 1/2 -1/2)

Ourorboros wrote: »

all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

I'd say this is far from accurate. I sell potions, food, and glyphs all made from mats I farmed. Cost to me was nothing, except the ingredients sold only by grocers. When they sell, it's almost pure profit. I'm sitting on a million gold.

Your time is what is being paid for, yes but the thing is you could make close to equal profits from selling the materials you farm post refinement into something better which also cost you time, money and skill points to level! the returns simply don't justify all that!

Ourorboros

Your time is what is being paid for, yes but the thing is you could make close to equal profits from selling the materials you farm post refinement into something better which also cost you time, money and skill points to level! the returns simply don't justify all that!

I expected to see 'time' thrown into the final cost. However, I play primarily solo, doing quests and achievements. A lot of my mats are just from picking what I come across without looking. I would have maxed all my crafts regardless of profitability, just because they are things to do in game. So I don't really think about time in the profitability equation. In fact, I made no money on smithing until I could sell nirnhoned.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution? something like say "specializing" in certain crafts to further quality/able to be crafted sets.

However. I agree with your major point that crafting is too generic. It has little value because anyone can do it with time and skill points. There have been other threads suggesting ways to specialize crafting, and make hard choices about future training. Maybe this has been intended. At this point the game's future seems shaky, but we can hope it stabilizes and crafting goes in the direction of this post.

Digiman

Crafting System is okay if it suffered a problem it would be the research time sink that I find nearly high way robbery given the subscription cost of the game, 7 days maximum not 30.

Honestly though the problem isn't the crafting system it was the lack in where to buy other peoples crafted gear if you were searching for it. Because it was so difficult it was much easier to sink points in a skill instead to craft you own.

Nazon_Katts

Playing the system always is more rewarding monetary wise than working in it. I could make much more by just buying and reselling nirncrux, than by crafting nirnhoned items. But then I wouldn't be spreading my name and the mmo broker is a role I only tend to play, when I have to catch up in a matured game.

But none of that is really tied to the ability to theoretically craft all things for your own and be self-sufficient, since you still not going to be just that, even when you've got all crafts on one character. Time is still going to be an issue.

I miss the interdependencies of old, too, however.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

KBKB wrote: »

Think about the current state of crafting, all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

Other MMOs did it for a reason and it worked fairly well keeping the market and need for certain crafts in check, I think personally that's where ZOS had a major blunder in opening up EVERY SINGLE craft to EVERY SINGLE player.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution?

My thought is that there isn't a problem that needs fixing .. it requires players to realise crafting doesn't have to be all about making fortunes of gold off the back of others, which creates a game that forces people to grind gold simply in order to be able to play .. or else create a legion of 'crafting mules' to fill the void.

I like being able to be self-sufficient and not be held to ransom by greedy crafters .. long may it continue.

Zershar_Vemod

DeLindsay wrote: »

H3LL NO! There is nothing at all wrong with any character having the ability to do all crafting professions. You are delusional if you think that capping each character to 2-3 professions will somehow change how the market works and what is sold on said market.

So much this - I find it wonderful that everyone can invest in all crafting professions. It eliminates so many problems that other MMOs suffer from.

OP, there isn't even an economy in this game.

Antiquity

KBKB wrote: »

Hmm I see your points but for example,

Stack of Columbine anywhere between 11-15k
Same for Bugloss
Mountain flower around 8k
Cloud mist 2k

so lets add it up

Selling the raw herbs will yield you around

35-40k

the Pots 40- 44k

That's not really worthy of your time when you can sell the finished result with X amount of banked skill points into to make a measly 4k on top of item costs would be easier to sell the herbs. Because everyone can craft!

I make 20k off a stack of bugloss, same for columbine, 12k per stack of mountain flower, and up to 2.5k per stack of cloud mist. 54-54.5k is a no brainer over 40-44k.

And yet, I still see crafters complain about not being able to make money. You can, but you have to be willing to go out and farm your mats. No, crafting should not be restricted to a couple crafts per character. Farming takes more time than crafting. I'm investing more time, therefore earning more money. ZOS got it right, in my opinion.

Nestor

If they limited the Crafting I can do with one character, I would just roll alts.

In fact, that is how I craft. One does Clothing/Woodworking, one does Black Smithing and Provisioning, one does Alchemy and Enchanting. All these are at 50 with all skills unlocked (that make sense).

I am limited just like the OP is proposing and I can still craft in every line. It would just be a needless limitation that would just end up being worked around, not adhered to.

Ourorboros

How many threads are there screaming for more character slots. Restricting one character from being able to do all crafting would force alts to learn crafts, thereby locking character slots. Maybe Nestor will be okay with using 3 slots permanently so he has access to all the time invested in training crafts. But that will not work for everyone. I have one toon trained in all crafts. That's one I don't foresee ever deleting. That still gives me 7 character slots vs. 5 for Nestor. And Nestor, this is not a criticism, your post just jogged the idea in my head.

Nestor

Ourorboros wrote: »

That still gives me 7 character slots vs. 5 for Nestor. And Nestor, this is not a criticism, your post just jogged the idea in my head.

My 3 Crafters are also my 3 Mains. One is a VR12 NB (BS and Prov), one is a VR6 DK (Alch/Ench) and one is a VR5 Sorc (Wood/Cloth/Alchemy Skills just no points). I just rolled a Templar and she has no plans to craft in anything. Its nice putting all my SPs into Combat/Defense Actives and Passive on that one.

Now, the Cloth/Wood/Blacksmither are now deep in the 6 to 8th traits (Cloth and Wood at 8, so just Medium and Metal are left) so I have that time invested. I could not imagine personally having one character be a master crafter in all lines, but that is just me. If that person was a master crafter, then I don't think they would have as much combat prowess. I also like the idea of the specializing, but that is an RP thing really.

The slots that are not available to me are my 4 Mules. However I am leveling their horses so I can have two mules with the upcoming Provisioning changes (one just stores provisioning mats now)

KBKB

Antiquity wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Hmm I see your points but for example,

Stack of Columbine anywhere between 11-15k
Same for Bugloss
Mountain flower around 8k
Cloud mist 2k

so lets add it up

Selling the raw herbs will yield you around

35-40k

the Pots 40- 44k

That's not really worthy of your time when you can sell the finished result with X amount of banked skill points into to make a measly 4k on top of item costs would be easier to sell the herbs. Because everyone can craft!

I make 20k off a stack of bugloss, same for columbine, 12k per stack of mountain flower, and up to 2.5k per stack of cloud mist. 54-54.5k is a no brainer over 40-44k.

And yet, I still see crafters complain about not being able to make money. You can, but you have to be willing to go out and farm your mats. No, crafting should not be restricted to a couple crafts per character. Farming takes more time than crafting. I'm investing more time, therefore earning more money. ZOS got it right, in my opinion.

So your argument is raw materials should be worth more than refined ones? yeah that totally makes sense with time invested along with skill points.

Antiquity

KBKB wrote: »

So your argument is raw materials should be worth more than refined ones? yeah that totally makes sense with time invested along with skill points.

I have invested the time and skill points in to crafting as well. And yes, that is my argument. Crafting barely takes any time at all. You get the skill points while you mosey along questing. You get stuff to decon/research while while doing the questing as well. You don't have to do anything to research, except a couple mouse clicks, and then carrying on questing while you wait. It all very nearly happens on it's own.

Whereas with raw mats, if you really want to farm mats you have to concentrate only on farming. Not to mention that with the armor/weapon crafting, raw mats have potential to give you extra stuff when you refine them - trait mats and upgrade items. Prepared ingots/sanded wood etc. give you nothing extra.

What I'm hearing is that people who only craft, and buy their mats from stalls, want me to go spend 3 hours gathering so they can go click some buttons at a vendor stall for 30 minutes, spend 15 minutes crafting, and then turn a bigger profit than I do.

I have the skill points and research invested and could be making that stuff with the things I farm, too. I just see where the money is, and take the best route to get it. My time investment is larger, my profit is larger.

If more people would take this plan of action, crafted items would become more scarce and therefore non-crafters would have a harder time finding what they want, and be willing to pay more for it when they do find it. Less things would be crafted, causing a flood of mats on the market, driving down the price of mats as well. The problem would effectively solve itself.


Edit: You could also still offer to make things for people, but tell them they have to buy or farm the mats. They send the mats to you, you make what they want, and you charge a convenience fee. Then they'll see why you can't make them a stack of tripots for 9 or 10k.

Nestor

KBKB wrote: »

So your argument is raw materials should be worth more than refined ones? yeah that totally makes sense with time invested along with skill points.

Raw Materials are worth more than Refined. I can take a stack of 100 Raw and get 90+ Refined Mats out of it. Plus Tempers for upgrades and Trait Gems too. So, overall the value of the raw stack is much more than the refined stack.

You even see this in the Guild Stores

AlexDougherty

Nestor wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

So your argument is raw materials should be worth more than refined ones? yeah that totally makes sense with time invested along with skill points.

Raw Materials are worth more than Refined. I can take a stack of 100 Raw and get 90+ Refined Mats out of it. Plus Tempers for upgrades and Trait Gems too. So, overall the value of the raw stack is much more than the refined stack.

You even see this in the Guild Stores

Yes, that's always been the logic, refined mats are only bought if you can't get the raw mats.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

KBKB wrote: »

Think about the current state of crafting, all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

Other MMOs did it for a reason and it worked fairly well keeping the market and need for certain crafts in check, I think personally that's where ZOS had a major blunder in opening up EVERY SINGLE craft to EVERY SINGLE player.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution? something like say "specializing" in certain crafts to further quality/able to be crafted sets.

No need, they just need to stop handing out skill points like they are candy. Problem solved.

When everyone can do everything no one is unique.

AlexDougherty

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

KBKB wrote: »

Think about the current state of crafting, all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

Other MMOs did it for a reason and it worked fairly well keeping the market and need for certain crafts in check, I think personally that's where ZOS had a major blunder in opening up EVERY SINGLE craft to EVERY SINGLE player.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution? something like say "specializing" in certain crafts to further quality/able to be crafted sets.

No need, they just need to stop handing out skill points like they are candy. Problem solved.

When everyone can do everything no one is unique.

The skill points need to stay, otherwise those who have already acquired them have an unfair advantage.

You can't remove the number of skill points in the game, all you can do is not add anymore.

Grao

KBKB wrote: »

Think about the current state of crafting, all that is sold is materials, if a finished item is sold ie potion/enchant/purple gear it is most likely always sold at material cost.

Other MMOs did it for a reason and it worked fairly well keeping the market and need for certain crafts in check, I think personally that's where ZOS had a major blunder in opening up EVERY SINGLE craft to EVERY SINGLE player.

So what's your thoughts too late to fix or is their another possible solution? something like say "specializing" in certain crafts to further quality/able to be crafted sets.

Heh, this would be serious point of contention here on the forum though. If Zenimax decides to lock a maximum number of professions you can have, what happen to all the time put in leveling, researching, stacking materials, not to mention the gold spent to go through some of those, for players that did choose to level every single profession?

I know if ZoS decided to go this path I'd be among the first to come to this forum and open a few threads with serious complains ^^. After all, it was rather troublesome to get all 9 traits researched in every single profession, level enchanting and Alchemy, all of that.

Edit: Also, as master crafter I have no problem selling items I make. All it takes is a little bit of patience and some basic communication skills - I don't even use guild stores much, preferring to just talk to the 'customers' one on one and do my crafting on request. I don't remember how many months its been since my gold went bellow 250k >.> Even though I've now nurtured 3 horses, bought all bag space and am working towards the last final bank slots... And I only have one character, I will get more gold once I start popping a few alts.

Ourorboros

Another consideration against restricting craft training that I don't think has been mentioned on this thread is that doing so would lock extra character slots. People have been asking for more slots, and tying up slots with highly trained, but limited, characters is certainly an argument in favor of more slots. I'd guess people would be reluctant to delete a character trained to 50 in two or more crafts. By training all crafts on one character, you maximize available slots. With one completely trained alt to support the other slots, it's not as big a loss to delete one if you want to go in a different direction.