Vet BC WTF!

Layenem

So is there a reason that block doesn't work at all on the final two main bosses in Vet BC (Imiril and Rilis)? Every other boss in every other dungeon - even all of the other bosses in this one - you can block and mitigate a portion of the damage. But Vet BC, despite putting in several tickets, remains broken. IF this is your intent then you're a bunch of idiots. You already have enough issues with tanks not even being needed in most places so you're going to now make block NOT mitigate damage? It doesn't even register that I'm blocking as ZERO stamina is used.

Need proof? Check link at the bottom.

Imiril hits for 509 without block and, wait for it... 509 WITH block up. Then the final boss is just as bad... At least you can kite Imiril, though it's just a shame that I'd be better off coming in as a DPS rather than a tank.

Currently, I'm done running this ridiculous dungeon with is bad because I LOVE it! It's, in my opinion, the best of the original 6 Vet Dungeons. The mechanics are great and challenge you... Now though, they just SCREAM for a DK Tank to come in and green dragon blood everything.

As you can see from the footage, I receive 509 damage each time I take a hit whether I have block up or not. Also, if you note, stamina does not decrease while a block attempt should have landed. As a result of this, Hist Bark goes off far less than a normal fight though I haven't put together any data, nor will I, to show the loss in effectiveness.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ can we please get this fixed? It's a simple mechanic that's destroying ANY joy of tanking in this game.

Imiril block failure video: http://www.twitch.tv/layenem/c/5651302

Swen_von_Walhallion

Well i was here yesterday on vet 12, with my VR14 NB as tank ( have 1h/s and heavy armor only on 30 and it was my 1st tanking with NB) and i have no problems with inc dmg. I wipe only thx my mystake when step in to the aoe from whisp at imril but imril alene make me nearly nothing. And on Rilis i have no problem tank bos and 2-3 deadrots at some time. Mebe is something wrong on your side or on your healer, and hit for 500 is not big isue for decent tank and decent healer ( have templar healer and play it more then my nb)

Syntse

The dungeon is doable but has added hard factor in it because of the blocking not working. IMO it is bug that should be fixed and it is also diminishing my enjoyment of this dungeon.

Ahdora

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Well i was here yesterday on vet 12, with my VR14 NB as tank ( have 1h/s and heavy armor only on 30 and it was my 1st tanking with NB) and i have no problems with inc dmg. I wipe only thx my mystake when step in to the aoe from whisp at imril but imril alene make me nearly nothing. And on Rilis i have no problem tank bos and 2-3 deadrots at some time. Mebe is something wrong on your side or on your healer, and hit for 500 is not big isue for decent tank and decent healer ( have templar healer and play it more then my nb)

It's not a matter of it being doable. It's obviously doable.

The whole point is that block not working is either a broken mechanic, or something that is intended that shouldn't be.

Layenem

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

Well i was here yesterday on vet 12, with my VR14 NB as tank ( have 1h/s and heavy armor only on 30 and it was my 1st tanking with NB) and i have no problems with inc dmg. I wipe only thx my mystake when step in to the aoe from whisp at imril but imril alene make me nearly nothing. And on Rilis i have no problem tank bos and 2-3 deadrots at some time. Mebe is something wrong on your side or on your healer, and hit for 500 is not big isue for decent tank and decent healer ( have templar healer and play it more then my nb)

I don't think you're understanding the post. 509 damage isn't killing me. However, the healer is only v6, 509 damage CONSTANTLY going on to the tank won't be something they can sustain.

On top of that, if you watched the video, you can clearly see I'm at hard cap for armor and JUST shy (less than 1%) of hard cap on spell resist. I'm inclined to believe you have no clue what you're talking about if you think there could possibly be something "on my end" as far as the tanking goes... Block. Isn't. Working.

And sorcs don't have a strong way to tap tank. We can use a few options but none of them can sustain against the 800 damage MINIMUM hits we take from Imiril and Rilis dude, sorry. 800 per hit, with 3k HP, is a almost 1/3 of my HP per hit, that's not right. That damage is supposed to be mitigated further or only comes if I miss a power attack, things like that.

And just for the record, for those of you who think Dark Deal is a viable means of "tap tanking" so to speak. It's not. It's only 370ish HP per tick for cost of stamina which leaves you wide open to other attacks. You can "soften" the blow, but only until your stamina runs out. That's hardly viable.

Now I showed you my vid, if you're claiming it's "so easy" then show me yours or I'm just going to consider your post a fabrication of facts. Anyone can record video, you don't need to stream it.

schroed360

Tottally agree with OP.This is totally broken.And for those saying it is doable ...yes it is (under 30mn yesterday).But it was not fun since broken and yes a templar healer can sustain you(and still he may have some mana management problem at the end ) But go try to heal that dungeon with any other class ...even with a Dk spamming dragon blood I m really under the impression that it will be impossible.
I vote for a TANK stroke on Tuesday vet pledge^^.

ZOS_The_Adoring_Fan

We're evaluating this issue, as allowing spell projectile base attacks from bosses to be mitigated by blocking introduces some new balance concerns.

We're definitely looking at making Rilis' base projectile attack able to be dodged, at least. Imril should be able to be blocked, so we will address that and get a fix out in a future patch.

Kraven

The_Adoring_Fan wrote: »

We're evaluating this issue, as allowing spell projectile base attacks from bosses to be mitigated by blocking introduces some new balance concerns.

We're definitely looking at making Rilis' base projectile attack able to be dodged, at least. Imril should be able to be blocked, so we will address that and get a fix out in a future patch.

Wait. "allowing spell projectile base attacks from bosses to be mitigated by blocking introduces some new balance concerns."?

The passive in S&B that "Blocks X% ADDITIONAL damage from projectiles"

Defensive Posture and both morphs specifically designed for spells.

Not to mention the fact that they were previously being blocked. OR to mention that removing block as a necessary part of a fight ( A BOSS FIGHT AT THAT) completely removes the need for a tank in the first place. Hell might as well throw on my bow hit it with inner beast and dps/kite the thing.

BALANCE ISSUES? When a DK alone can mitigate the damage?

I'M SORRY WHAT!?!?

Gyudan

I tanked that boss (and the 3 daedroths) with a sorcerer a few days ago. It was quite easy compared to some other dungeons bosses ...

Dagoth_Rac

The_Adoring_Fan wrote: »

We're evaluating this issue, as allowing spell projectile base attacks from bosses to be mitigated by blocking introduces some new balance concerns.

We're definitely looking at making Rilis' base projectile attack able to be dodged, at least. Imril should be able to be blocked, so we will address that and get a fix out in a future patch.

@The_Adoring_Fan‌

(Great username, BTW!)

Rilis fires off that base attack about every 0.5 seconds. It is the NPC equivalent of Crushing Shock spam. I don't think you can expect tanks to dodge roll nonstop. There is already a lot of dodge rolling required in here to get out of the blue fire AoE he lays down. Since that is multiple AoE that spawn in a staggered pattern, you often roll out of it just to have a new one spawn under your feet and you have to roll again. And sometimes a third time. And then I need to get up and continue dodging base attacks ad nauseum? This is not a gymnastics meet.

Have you considered either slowing down the rate of Rilis' base attack so it is not such a nonstop barrage of unmitigated damage? Or keeping the rate of fire but toning down the damage? This is not a Trial. Boss base attacks should not be straining the healer to such a degree. Not blocking power attacks? Standing in the red? Ignoring mechanics? Those should strain the healer. Not base attacks.

Kraven

Gyudan wrote: »

I tanked that boss (and the 3 daedroths) with a sorcerer a few days ago. It was quite easy compared to some other dungeons bosses ...

Again.
Yet again.

NO one is saying anything about the difficulty of any of the mechanics. I tank it as a NB, the OP has tanked it as a Sorc. Several times, in fact hundreds of times since they changed the hard mode to the daedroth adds. Dozens of times since 1.5 and hundreds more since January in PTS.

It is simply a broken mechanic. Broken as in it doesn't work. Block mitigates absolutely 0 damage so there is no point to blocking. FFS.

IF blocking isn't suppose to be mitigating any damage at all from spell projectiles as @The_Adoring_Fan‌ is suggesting then not only is that the absolute stupidest thing I've ever heard, but it means that other bosses are broken. Shouldn't be able to block Nerien'Eth's spell projectile or the final boss in fungal for that matter.

cote-bmsb16_ESO

I was wondering why Imiriil was being so mean to my guildie's DK (he tanks trials on the reg LoL). My tank died twice & so did my other DPS. It was a struggle to heal for that one fight, but we completed it as v14s.

Layenem

The_Adoring_Fan wrote: »

We're evaluating this issue, as allowing spell projectile base attacks from bosses to be mitigated by blocking introduces some new balance concerns.

We're definitely looking at making Rilis' base projectile attack able to be dodged, at least. Imril should be able to be blocked, so we will address that and get a fix out in a future patch.

First off, thank you for responding and noting the issue.

Now this is where we have some fun...

Stating that spell projectiles shouldn't be mitigated? What? Most of the game is spell projectiles... Let's run through the list of spell projectiles that are allowed to be blocked. We'll only consider ones that are along the same lines, though not ONLY light attacks:

We'll go through each Vet Dungeon (not all bosses are considered for this list if they are capable of being completed by a group of two 700 DPS in less than 1 minute in a vet 12 dungeon; all damage is considered on a v14 tank from a v12 mob). This list also ONLY lists bosses who's basic attack, and a secondary attack fits the description of a "spell projectile," and not the melee based bosses.

Vet CoH: 4 out of 4 (total: 4 out of 4)

Ruzozuzalpamaz's (spider daedra boss) basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Ilambris Amalgarn's (giant golemn) basic attacks (in both lightening and fire form) are blockable.

Mezeleth's (2nd to last boss, crazy fire aoe/sucks you in mechanics... MUCH better now than before 1.5 btw, great job!) basic attacks are blockable.

Nerien'Eth's basic attack (just like Rilis) AND his charged heavy attack that can both be blocked. Without blocking them the damage output is far too high, and the charged attack can kill you. Now, stating that you simply must dodge roll them means that we need a far more sufficient means of stamina replenishment because potions won't keep up with light attacks (the basic attacks do 800+ to a fully mitigated spell resist V14 tank in a V12 zone and come far too frequently to use dodge roll).

Vet Wayrest: 2 out of 4 (total: 6 out of 8)

Malubeth's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Garron's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Vet Darkshade Caverns: 2 out of 4 (total: 8 out of 10)

The Fallen Foreman's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Grubull's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Vet Elden Hollow: 1 out of 6 (total: 9 out of 16)

The Shadow Guard's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

BOGDAN: We will NOT COUNT this guys fire breath OR over head fire spit as a "projectile" since it damages in an AoE type.

Vet Fungal Grotto: 3 out of 5 (total: 12 out of 21)

Ciirenas's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Spawn of Mephala's (Vet FG) crystal frag is blockable and would one shot you if it wasn't, dodging is a horrible method since she still drops threat at random times and you are required to perform blocks if you are not the tank due to low armor mitigation numbers. On top of that, Stamina DPS is already at a vast disability when having to use stamina to mitigate damage (sprint or roll out of aoe's or direct attacks as well as blocking some damage) and by not allowing the mitigation of some projectiles that we have no control over who they assault you're just furthering this issue entirely.

Vila Theran's (Vet FG) basic attack is blockable, again, 800ish damage to a fully mitgated v14 tank in v12 vet dungeon.

Vet Spindle Clutch: 1 out of 5 (total: 13 out of 26)

Praxin's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Vet Banished Cells: 2 out of 4 (total: 15 out of 30)

Twin Harvesters have a basic attack (same as Rilis) that is blockable.

Rilis has a basic attack that CANNOT BE BLOCKED!

Vet CoH: 3 out of 5 (18 out of 35)

Rukhan has no spell projectiles, but the Mage that is up with him does and his basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Urata's basic attacks (same as Rilis) are blockable.

Ash Titan: This one is a bit more difficult. The basic attacks are treated as projectiles in that they can be dodges resulting in no ground AoE. The initial damage can be blocked.

GRAND TOTAL OF SPELL PROJECTILE ATTACK BOSSES: 18 out of 35 (more than half)

COUNTLESS basic mobs who are mage's of one type or another ALL have basic attacks (same as Rilis) and are all blockable.

As you can see in the list here, @the_adoring_fan (I've been notified that you're not a developer, which puts me at great ease since you didn't seem to understand how the game functioned), the data weighs against your words. As a matter of fact, more than half (by 1) of your boss fights utilize spell projectiles. So either you're information on not being able to block spell projectiles is wrong, or you're going to force every tank into a magicka build so that we can find a way to mitigate more damage. Light armor tanks are already a near necessity... Don't crap on your own game by doing this out of pure instinct just to get spell resist up high enough to mitigate enough damage...

Conclusion:

Rilis is the ONLY ONE of your enemies that holds a basic attack, or any spell projectile, that does not respect the pattern of all other zones.

I'd like to note, again, that Rilis worked the same as all of the others UNTIL 1.5 hit. If your intent was to not allow any spell projectiles to be blocked you'd have a LIST of issues that you're no where near addressing. As a tank, how would I not be capable of blocking spell projectiles, since a projectile is considered to have a physical nature.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Developers don't understand their game the way gamers do. ADDENDUM: People who take the place of our beloved Gina and Jessica might have even less knowledge of the game.

Gyudan

Layenem wrote: »

Now though, they just SCREAM for a DK Tank to come in and green dragon blood everything.

Kraven wrote: »

BALANCE ISSUES? When a DK alone can mitigate the damage?

I'M SORRY WHAT!?!?

@Kraven: I was refering to those comments about needing a DK tank to complete the dungeon. I should have been clearer, sorry.

For that fight, tanking the boss himself doesn't matter as much as the 3 daedroths.

Layenem

Gyudan wrote: »

For that fight, tanking the boss himself doesn't matter as much as the 3 daedroths.

Sure, if your group doesn't have to flee from lightning bolts. But let that boss smack the DPS for 1.2k per hit. Healer has to heal the tank with daedroth(s) AND whoever else is taking damage from the boss. You've lost your mind.

On top of that, what you're talking about isn't even relevant to the actual issue. It's like the internet is full of people who have this desire to sound smart by contradicting someone else. Well you don't sound smart, you look obstructive to the point being made, which is far from smart.

ZOS_The_Adoring_Fan

Alright, after poking some of the other dungeon designers, we concede that the messaging is unclear in a number of cases.

So in response to this, multiple boss basic spell projectiles, including Rilis's base attack, have been updated so that they can now be blocked. They have also been scaled to have a slight damage increase. You'll see this change in 1.6's patch notes.

Some projectiles with special boss mechanics are excluded from this change, and will be able to be blocked on a case-by-case basis as before.

Dungeon Scaling introduced a number of cases where a boss's damage felt particularly anemic when compared to their peers, so their power was increased. This lead to Rilis in particular becoming more difficult to deal with for some groups with his original mechanics.

Edit: For clarity, this will only change the "auto attack" that some bosses have which fall in the same category as Rilis's auto attack (base attack) spell projectile from the original post.

Some of the attacks previously mentioned did not fall into this category, because they involve special mechanics unique to those boss fights, or were categorized as beam attacks, etc. We're still gauging impact of changes to those abilities for now.

Layenem

The_Adoring_Fan wrote: »

Alright, after poking some of the other dungeon designers, we concede that the messaging is unclear in a number of cases.

So in response to this, multiple boss basic spell projectiles, including Rilis's base attack, have been updated so that they can now be blocked. They have also been scaled to have a slight damage increase. You'll see this change in 1.6's patch notes.

Some projectiles with special boss mechanics are excluded from this change, and will be able to be blocked on a case-by-case basis as before.

Dungeon Scaling introduced a number of cases where a boss's damage felt particularly anemic when compared to their peers, so their power was increased. This lead to Rilis in particular becoming more difficult to deal with for some groups with his original mechanics.

BEAUTIFUL! Now that I can figure out my mitigation tactics again Vet BC might be my favorite dungeon again.

I don't mind the increased damage, it's important to provide a challenge, particularly at its toughest level. It is when the power to perform my role as a tank is completely taken out of my hands and I literally become useless to my group.

I appreciate the responses and I'm glad to see that the difficulty, along with mechanics, are being corrected and adjusted to continue to provide us PvE group end gamers a challenge!!!

Layenem

The_Adoring_Fan wrote: »

Alright, after poking some of the other dungeon designers, we concede that the messaging is unclear in a number of cases.

So in response to this, multiple boss basic spell projectiles, including Rilis's base attack, have been updated so that they can now be blocked. They have also been scaled to have a slight damage increase. You'll see this change in 1.6's patch notes.

Some projectiles with special boss mechanics are excluded from this change, and will be able to be blocked on a case-by-case basis as before.

Dungeon Scaling introduced a number of cases where a boss's damage felt particularly anemic when compared to their peers, so their power was increased. This lead to Rilis in particular becoming more difficult to deal with for some groups with his original mechanics.

PS. I was wrong about the Spawn of Mephala's single target ability similar to crystal frags... it is not blockable. So 17 out of 35 lol

Xsorus

When we tank both of these bosses we used my archer dk to tank them, I'd apply inner beast and just dodge around avoiding the hits or projectiles with ease. Eventually I moved on to just tank the 3 daemons on the last boss (5 is max I could tank doing this)

Merlin13KAGL

Have not paid enough attention to know if 1.6 has gone live yet or not, tbh.

However, I do know that BC is still one that likes to glitch out about 25% of the time.

We did it the other day and Imiril's spawns were happening about twice as often as usual, but we dealt with it.

When we got to Rilis, lots of neat things happened.

Healers skill bar went numb - this finally snapped out of it with a /reloadui.

My personal favorite, which was witnessed by all present, so I know I'm not crazy was this:

Dropped from the sky - blue curse. Pretty standard fair.

Since I landed mere feet from the anti-curse of the same color, I stepped in and self cured, eliminating the need to use Purify and save it for the next guy.

I then ran past Rilis as he was engaged with the tank, enroute to deal with some of his adds.

As I run by, without the rise and fall, I immediately reacquire the blue curse.

Two steps later, he lifts me and bestows a red curse on top of that (with blue still ticking away all they up, and all the way down...)

By the time I got the fall damage on top of dual curses, that run was pretty well over for me until next rez.

My only regret is that I was not recording at the time, as that's one no one in my group had ever seen, and we've done more than our share of runs.

Imiril, Praxin...the coders seem to have difficulty handing wave dynamics and keeping them consistent. Add in the glitches and it can get downright painful.

Regarding block mitigation of projectiles and imbalance!? Have it take 10% off...it's not cancelling the damage intended, but at least it's doing something.

If they had weapons and shield (you know...armor!?) degrade over time as other armor does, this would take care of itself. It worked (and reasonably so) in the standalones...