close range dd are they unwaunted?

Pankafros

I am fairly disappointed how encounters and namely group encounters are handled in ESO, first there is a lack of support for the stamina builds from the classes in general as most class skills are mana based but that non withstanding now that I am doing veteran versions of group dungeons I feel that close combat dds are not just handed the short end of the stick in the fights... they are practically forcefully outright excluded. Mind you I am playing as healer so I start this discussion to further my understanding of the game by hearing the opinions of more experienced with the game people.

So why do I say that? the boss mechanics... Some bosses are downright untouchable by any close combat damage dealer that has no back up ranged damage attacks. This is done with a number of ways,
a) 1 shot aoes that appear near the boss and are calculated to not allow enough time to anyone in close range to retreat in time, (a ranged dps just stands in safe distance,,, a melee runs in and out practically every 5 secs and will have to use stamina to run to get out if they want to get out in time and charge to get back in)
b) high mobility teleporting bosses, (ranged need just to change target but melee need to get back to range giving them increased damage downtime)
c) traps stuns and blocks and slows that prevent the close combat combatants to even get into position.
d) swarms of add that make even walking. (never mind targeting) difficult

All those result to me healing for 30 minutes and or1 hour long fights ...(which in turn also makes the game tiring for non close combat combatants)

Now this is just sad and just sad game making. Especially when I google eso builds half of the published ones feature 2handed / dualwielding showing that there is a lot of people wanting to play that way and they cant cause the game mechanics don't allow you to play that. I feel that this mechanic practically says the players .... you and buy a bow or a wand. Heck I even had to give a friend a wand yesterday so he can dd on the last boss on the vet dungeon, we did the dungeon, yey us, but today he is not loggin. (probably cause he realizes he cant play what he wants to play)

Am I missing something here? are the mechanics that bad or is it just cause I have not reached high end game yet? Shall I just take the easy way out and whenever I see close combat damage dealer kick him from the group and tell him to learn to play? I guess I could do that but concidering the amount of players that want to play close an personal I wonder on the impact it will have if everyone starts doing that. Shouldn't the combat mechanics take into account all the playing styles and give them all the same chances to do well?

xaraan

Well, if you are really having mobility issues, most classes have charges of some sort: teleport strike for NB, bolt escape for Sorc, toppling charge for Templars, Chains to pull mobs to you (except bosses) for DKs, and stamina based weapons have closers as well: 2h and 1h/shield both have a charge and dual wield has a ranged attack (as obviously, does bow). Just like every other build, sometimes changes have to be made to your bar setup for boss fights that you don't normally use everywhere else. Personally, I think that includes building for a ranged fight, just like a ranged user should have some ideas in case they have to fight something right in their face (knock backs, cc's, escapes, protection to just stand and fight, etc).

As for my personal opinion?

When I'm tanking, I don't care much for melee dps because they get in my way sometimes and make my job harder sometimes (not always). Some of that could be the players I've worked with, but sometimes it's just unavoidable.

When I'm healing, I don't care much for melee because they take more damage than they need to. I've never had a problem keeping them alive, but it can still be an unnecessary drain when they could have a more expansive build to deal with it. If you run medium armor to get weapon damage up and run into a pack of mobs, you're going to take a lot of physical attacks without a lot of protection.

When I'm dps, I don't care as long as you pull your weight. But, I run two different dps'rs, one magicka based sorc and one stamina based NB (uses bow and dual wield). I have to say that any range fighter works just as hard keeping stuff at range and out of their face as you probably do staying in their face (yes, that included dodge rolling all over, etc. with my stamina guy - it's doable).

I do feel your pain on the whole boss mechanics however, it is something you have to deal with as a melee fighter. But any good warrior should have more than one way to skin a cat in their arsenal IMO. You should have some ranged options just in case, or ways to deal with having to use melee when it's not optimal.

Artis

OP you're not right.
1)1 shot aoes under the boss affect tanks as well. But if they were 1shotted that would mean wipe. Those aoe are always avoidable and if melee DPS can't do that - the problem is in the player, not in the fact that he's melee.
2) DK- dps are very very popular and wanted in groups. Well, you might be surprised, but they are melee even if they are mages. They need to be in melee range to apply their class skills.

Currently, I think only of some fights in non-vet dungeons that would discriminate melee... Say, the first boss in Direfrost Keep, which has that aoe on himself all the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but melee DPS are perfectly viable in Vet DSA and in Trials.. and in Vet dungeons. So are the tanks, haha, which are mostly melee ;P

TheLaw

Unless it's a burst spec NB or DK, it's not really possible to play that way against zergs. Nor will it be viable until they introduce small scale PvP. As for PVE, there are quite a few viable specs.

Pankafros

I see that I am not the only one to consider melee dd hard to deal with in a pve group.;(

Artemis your point 1 makes no sense to me, a tank should take less damage than a dd to begin with (thats why its called a tank) and have more health than him as well. So the tank will survive the dd probably wont unless he out gears the instance in a serious manner. So no if he cannot avoid the aoes effectively he is likely to die.
30 meters aoes so that they force the rangers to move is a very common mechanic in eso boss fights I am surprised you have not seen them the difference is that the rangers need to do 2 steps to get out of there while the melee have to run 30 meters to get out. I can think of at least 4 bosses that are impossible to dps with melee and I am not even that experienced with the game I only tried 3-4 vet dungeons, The gargoyl that throws a whole cave on your head if you are to slow killing it, the blossum that burst a 20 meter? aoe of poison damage, pure joy if your dpser is were wolf. The dwemer spider that you got to kill without touching the levers for the gold key , for that your healer must be very dedicated in leting you dps so that he practically runs to the boss so you can have a remote chance to dps it if you avoid all the aoes in the way.

I cannot comment on the pvp for melee dpsers since I decided to start pvping when I reach vet 14. Your comment though, is much appreciated.

Artis

Pankafros wrote: »

I see that I am not the only one to consider melee dd hard to deal with in a pve group.;(

Artemis your point 1 makes no sense to me, a tank should take less damage than a dd to begin with (thats why its called a tank) and have more health than him as well. So the tank will survive the dd probably wont unless he out gears the instance in a serious manner. So no if he cannot avoid the aoes effectively he is likely to die.
30 meters aoes so that they force the rangers to move is a very common mechanic in eso boss fights I am surprised you have not seen them the difference is that the rangers need to do 2 steps to get out of there while the melee have to run 30 meters to get out. I can think of at least 4 bosses that are impossible to dps with melee and I am not even that experienced with the game I only tried 3-4 vet dungeons, The gargoyl that throws a whole cave on your head if you are to slow killing it, the blossum that burst a 20 meter? aoe of poison damage, pure joy if your dpser is were wolf. The dwemer spider that you got to kill without touching the levers for the gold key , for that your healer must be very dedicated in leting you dps so that he practically runs to the boss so you can have a remote chance to dps it if you avoid all the aoes in the way.

I cannot comment on the pvp for melee dpsers since I decided to start pvping when I reach vet 14. Your comment though, is much appreciated.

Well, if you do PvE more often my point 1 will make perfect sense to you. Oneshotting AoEs are oneshotting because no one can survive them.. the rest? Block and you're alive. Fall back a bit in advance, since you can read animations and see when the boss is about to cast something that hits hard.

Please, bring on 3 more bosses because you are definitely wrong about the Blood Spawn (that gargoyle). The way (one of the ways at least) this boss is killed is the entire group stacks on the boss. Yeah, you heard me. Everyone including ranged DPS is on the boss, taking damage from that AoE. Damage mitigation (CoP, veils, etc) and heals are enough not to lose anyone. You don't have to be ranged for that fight. Then again, DKs are melee and they are always wanted in groups.
Which are 3 more bosses?

If your DPS is a werewolf without poison resist then it's his fault that he dies, it's not about being melee.

The key to beating the dwemer spider is to stack for heals. The entire group can run to the boss - it won't increase incoming damage during that poison phase, so I really don't understand where you see the problem. Ranged dps can deal the same damage in the close range.
The only phase where melee can't deal damage is the lightning phase, but that can be used to kill adds.

I see the problem here:

So no if he cannot avoid the aoes effectively he is likely to die.

But let me repeat it again, the reason of this is the lack of skill rather than being melee. I know no aoe that are unavoidable and that can be survived by a tank only
Also, you have the entire 2nd bar to, say, use a bow when you have to keep the distance but don't want to lose your dps entirely.

xMovingTarget

I do everything melee. On my DK and also on my Stamina Dualwield Nightblade. Both Chars completed Sanctum Ophidia and DSA Vet as melees.
No problem.
Also in vet dungeons, no problem at all. I even out dps the range DDs.

If you need help with being melee, check my youtube in my signature. Good builds etc you can use and also survive.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Artemis wrote: »

Pankafros wrote: »

I see that I am not the only one to consider melee dd hard to deal with in a pve group.;(

Artemis your point 1 makes no sense to me, a tank should take less damage than a dd to begin with (thats why its called a tank) and have more health than him as well. So the tank will survive the dd probably wont unless he out gears the instance in a serious manner. So no if he cannot avoid the aoes effectively he is likely to die.
30 meters aoes so that they force the rangers to move is a very common mechanic in eso boss fights I am surprised you have not seen them the difference is that the rangers need to do 2 steps to get out of there while the melee have to run 30 meters to get out. I can think of at least 4 bosses that are impossible to dps with melee and I am not even that experienced with the game I only tried 3-4 vet dungeons, The gargoyl that throws a whole cave on your head if you are to slow killing it, the blossum that burst a 20 meter? aoe of poison damage, pure joy if your dpser is were wolf. The dwemer spider that you got to kill without touching the levers for the gold key , for that your healer must be very dedicated in leting you dps so that he practically runs to the boss so you can have a remote chance to dps it if you avoid all the aoes in the way.

I cannot comment on the pvp for melee dpsers since I decided to start pvping when I reach vet 14. Your comment though, is much appreciated.

Well, if you do PvE more often my point 1 will make perfect sense to you. Oneshotting AoEs are oneshotting because no one can survive them.. the rest? Block and you're alive. Fall back a bit in advance, since you can read animations and see when the boss is about to cast something that hits hard.

It's probably confounded by the problem that all the stamina skills (i.e. rapid strikes, wrecking blow and snipe) that are the primary damage dealers are channeled abilities and thus you can't block while doing them, which is an almost comical design failure.

IMO, it should absolutely be the other way around, ranged spellcasting should be less mobile and probably channeled more often, whereas melee should be instant.

thodoris1008

Melee dd is certainly more difficult to play than ranged but it's definitely doable.There are some fights that are extremelly melee unfriendly (someone already mentioned direfrost keep) but you can always use a bow in these fights.Recently i saw a very good dw/bow build in TF.Here's the link : http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nb-dual-wieldbow-pve-dps-build-1-5-3-with-video-guide/

Pankafros

Artemis I am starting to think you are trolling me so please give me an example of a dual wielding dk build since they are so common damaging that spider boss effectively. And give me the rotation and how they closed in