Undaunted Pledge Difficulty

Cazic

Just wanted to add my feedback in this thread...

Veteran Dungeon bosses are ridiculously hard at the moment. In my opinion, too difficult. I know they're supposed to be challenging, but there's a difference between a challenge and a frustrating waste of time. The mobs in between bosses are of good difficulty, just the bosses themselves are crazy.

I'm sure if you have a perfectly suited and coordinated group, they are possible. But anything less and it just seems too hard. I was running Spindle last night with a PUG of two VR 4s, a VR 14 and a VR 3. The dungeon was scaled to VR 3 and there was just no way in hell we were getting past the bosses. We were a pretty solid group overall too.

Maybe if three of us were VR 14 and then we scaled it down to VR 3 it would have been possible. And/or we were all friends and had voice communication. If the Vet Dungeons require these sort of things I'll just keep that in mind and avoid them during casual play sessions. But I feel like they should be a little easier. The current level of difficulty there just isn't fun.

eliisra

Cazic wrote: »

Maybe if three of us were VR 14 and then we scaled it down to VR 3 it would have been possible. And/or we were all friends and had voice communication. If the Vet Dungeons require these sort of things I'll just keep that in mind and avoid them during casual play sessions. But I feel like they should be a little easier. The current level of difficulty there just isn't fun.

Agreed, with these limited content updates, ZoS are being stupid making content only available for minorities.

Last major content update was 1.5.2 with Undaunted and scaled dungeons. But several VR encounters are to much, impossible for a pug, or even for a pre-made guild group with "wrong classes" or maximized builds.

Trying to kill Praxin Douare without NB and DK dps, turned out to be impossible for my last group at VR12, for example. Everything just kept piling up.

If I miss my guilds groups, I'm basically screwed and can't get my daily gold key. Only one possible for a PUG seems to be VR Wayrest. You can of course scale them down to VR1, fill rest slots with VR14. But I don't feel that's a fair and viable solution. I mean what about all mid-level players?

Besides, you can't L2P an entire PUG. These are 4-man dungeons, one or two players performing top-notch, makes no difference. One weak link is enough and you might as well leave the dungeon.

They need to go in and adjust difficulty on all bosses and encounters separately. Feels like they just turn a lever up a few notches,creating very inconsistent boss fights.

Long post. Point is, I strongly disagree that all VR dungeons should be exclusive for optimized groups using TS and correct builds, classes and so on. While pugs and less accomplished should settle for normal. It wasn't like that in the past, so why now?

Subtomik

I'm confused as to why the "hard mode" 4 man content should be easily pugable.

Why do you want the hardest stuff in the game handed to you?

If you don't want to put in the time, you shouldn't reap the rewards.

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO

Why have normal mode and a veteran mode if you just plan on nerfing veteran into the ground? Please keep veteran as is or harder - it is supposed to be hard. The feedback I have been getting from friends and guild mates is that they are actually enjoying the dungeons for the first time in awhile. Right now players seeking a challenge can find it in Veteran dungeons. If you find Veteran too difficult then keep practicing on Normal. Making the veteran content too easy will leave 4 man groups that are looking for a challenge with nothing left but veteran DSA. 99% of this game is too easy please don't get rid of the 1% that can actually offer a challenge.

Black_Wolf88

the veteran dungeons have already been nerfed. dungeons used to be set to one difficulty, but now you can change it up and down to your liking. vr1 being very very very easy compared to pre patch while vr12 increase the difficulty on how the dungeons was pre patch.

I dont see why people are still complaing. If vr 12 is too hard set the dungeon to vr1. Then its as easy as a walk in the park. want higher difficult set it to vr12.

the 4 man content is not made to be completed by *** who want to play the game the way they want to with crappy gear, poor to useless skill builds, no tactics and dont bother to learn boss mechanics.

with scaling the dungeons have been nerfed enough and shouldnt be any easier.

Merlin13KAGL

pppontus wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And actually, the game is entirely scaled on the first category called "elite".... What about the others ?
Zos should tell them if their game is definitely not for casual players who want "light game" (or at least the possibility of choose the difficulty ), and let them know if there is a little chance for a change or not, so they can leave and search for another game !

No, no, no, no, no no no no no no no no. NO. No. That is just so far from the truth. Overall I think this is probably the easiest game I have ever played. You can complete 90% of the game barely even looking at your screen. *combat sound* ok, click button 1 all the time. *combat over*

I am so happy that the VETERAN dungeons have finally become a little harder than that.

@pppontus , that quote's not mine, sir. Please correct.

My comment to you was that you could scale things up with a difficulty slider, not just down.

pppontus

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And actually, the game is entirely scaled on the first category called "elite".... What about the others ?
Zos should tell them if their game is definitely not for casual players who want "light game" (or at least the possibility of choose the difficulty ), and let them know if there is a little chance for a change or not, so they can leave and search for another game !

No, no, no, no, no no no no no no no no. NO. No. That is just so far from the truth. Overall I think this is probably the easiest game I have ever played. You can complete 90% of the game barely even looking at your screen. *combat sound* ok, click button 1 all the time. *combat over*

I am so happy that the VETERAN dungeons have finally become a little harder than that.

@pppontus , that quote's not mine, sir. Please correct.

My comment to you was that you could scale things up with a difficulty slider, not just down.

I know, I didn't quote you but apparently the forum decided I did.. trash forum.

Esha76

The majority of the time I found Vet pledges to be fine. Guys in my guild are very knowledgeable, very geared, and have done each of these vet dungeons several times over. If there are any wipes, we usually get past the boss by the second or third try.

However, that being said, we were in Vet Fungal Grotto the other night.... Everyone was getting nearly one-shotted by trash. Almost as if we weren't wearing any armor at all. Death recap reported normal damage values, but like I said, almost as if it wasn't recognizing armor. No idea what went wrong.

Left, re-formed group, came back in, everything then worked normally. A later pack of trash, same thing. Reset again, then worked within regular Vet parameters once again.

So, for some, the perception of the dungeon being too hard might be due to another bug. Considering the amount of bugs and things that don't work properly, it's not outlandish to consider they broke something in Vet dungeons that causes a bug from time to time make the dungeon seem more difficult that it actually is.

"Will there ever be a rainbow?" - Monty Burns

Merlin13KAGL

pppontus wrote: »

I know, I didn't quote you but apparently the forum decided I did.. trash forum.

Quality with capital 'K.' Gotta love it.

Islyn

yodased wrote: »

A lot of the fights are strictly mechanics/movement, but there are a few hard DPS checks in the game. (This means if you don't present the DPS you need to wipe the boss before enrage then you are dead or in some SERIOUS trouble.)

(Hi Yoda first! )

This. One Million Times This.

I run these with my guild in my AM their past midnight AM first (always easy peasy) - then I run it to help random friends another 4-5 times in some days and I tell you - there is always a group or 2 who wipe allllll the time.

Without the DPS, all the heals in the World will not save you with Fire Everywhere, too many adds up, firing on adds at times when you should focus boss (panther boss in Selene's Web, for example), and Fire Everywhere.

Merlin13KAGL

A couple things here: Watched the last ESO live pledge run (Normal Blackheart Haven scaled to 12 with 4xVR14's, one each class)

Found it interesting that they died multiple times and could not clear the final boss. Would have really liked to have seen them do a Vet Mode pledge...

I still think the dungeons glitch, or it seems so.

Got to Garen in Spindle the other day. Wave two big spirit spider had 75k hp.

Wave three had 25k hp...?

(This was while scaled to Vet 2, btw) Three of the spirit NPC's had 75k each, too.

I honestly didn't concentrate on the amount of HP prior to 1.5, when the scaling was Vet 5 for the Tier 1's. Didn't need to know, there was enough to burn them down.

SO, could someone check, next time they run Spindle at any Vet level and see if these HP's are normal and if the 3rd (intended to be harder than the 2nd) spider wave boss normally has 1/3rd the HP's of the second?

Elloa

I'm fine with this new system:

- Normal Dungeon for a normal challenge (that can be pugged, or accomplished with not optimised group)
- Veteran Dungeon for a hard challenge, great for group coordination and teamwork.

I think people should stop to expect to be capable to do all content easily. I've so far not finished a Veteran Dungeon yet, but it doesn't not frustrate me. I find it actually excitting, cause it's like 4man raid.
If I want relax and socialise with my guild while Dungeoning, or if I want to PUG, I do a normal Dungeon. The challenge is good enough to keep me awake, while still being able to relax and chit chat.
Veteran Dungeon I take them as progression content that will requiere good teamwork. And when we finaly finish a boss after a few wipes, it feel really rewarding!

(note: I'm a Vet1 Templar Healer)


The only thing I generaly dislike is Enrage mechanics, or DPS races. Because DPS races encourage a not so nice attitude among players and cookie cutter build. I prefer when players can choose to DPS-race the boss, or to survive through the encounter with great coordination (control, proper tanking and healing, survival). That allow more diversity in the builds of players while keeping the challenge.

zaria

Elloa wrote: »

I'm fine with this new system:

- Normal Dungeon for a normal challenge (that can be pugged, or accomplished with not optimised group)
- Veteran Dungeon for a hard challenge, great for group coordination and teamwork.

I think people should stop to expect to be capable to do all content easily. I've so far not finished a Veteran Dungeon yet, but it doesn't not frustrate me. I find it actually excitting, cause it's like 4man raid.
If I want relax and socialise with my guild while Dungeoning, or if I want to PUG, I do a normal Dungeon. The challenge is good enough to keep me awake, while still being able to relax and chit chat.
Veteran Dungeon I take them as progression content that will requiere good teamwork. And when we finaly finish a boss after a few wipes, it feel really rewarding!

(note: I'm a Vet1 Templar Healer)


The only thing I generaly dislike is Enrage mechanics, or DPS races. Because DPS races encourage a not so nice attitude among players and cookie cutter build. I prefer when players can choose to DPS-race the boss, or to survive through the encounter with great coordination (control, proper tanking and healing, survival). That allow more diversity in the builds of players while keeping the challenge.

This, yes its some balance issues with add spawns but veteran banished cells are not an faceroll dungeon on VR12 like it was before the update.
Think many is shocked then they wipe as they has not don it since low VR.

Magdalina

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

the veteran dungeons have already been nerfed. dungeons used to be set to one difficulty, but now you can change it up and down to your liking. vr1 being very very very easy compared to pre patch while vr12 increase the difficulty on how the dungeons was pre patch.

I dont see why people are still complaing. If vr 12 is too hard set the dungeon to vr1. Then its as easy as a walk in the park. want higher difficult set it to vr12.

the 4 man content is not made to be completed by *** who want to play the game the way they want to with crappy gear, poor to useless skill builds, no tactics and dont bother to learn boss mechanics.

with scaling the dungeons have been nerfed enough and shouldnt be any easier.

While I don't think dungeons should be nerfed, I don't think you're entirely correct there. Dungeons seem to have been generally buffed in 1.5 and it isn't just the scaling to vet 12 that makes them hard(er). I haven't run any on non-vet 12 level but I hear a lot of people say vet 1 dungeons now are harder/mobs have more health than vet 5 pre-1.5. While I cannot confirm this part myself for sure, I can say bosses old vet 10 dungeons(DC, Wayrest, Elden) scaled to vet 12 seem to have a LOT more health and damage than you'd expect from just 2 levels' difference. (Please note that I'm not saying they have too much of either but making a completely different point here)

Cuyler

From todays v1.5.6 patch notes

Dungeons & Group Content
General
•Slightly decreased the power and health of all monsters in dungeons that have been scaled to Veteran Rank 1 and higher.

Thechemicals

Reaction time is crucial in a lot of these boss fights. I dont like that...always worried someone didnt make the dodge roll or blocked in time.

neueregel

I think that the real thing here is some builds cannot take part in this. I have learned this myself. I played mostly solo since i started. These pledges have DPS checks and I found out, being honest with myself and researching, that I was the weak link in the failures I had with these. There may have been others that were not configured properly as part of the group as well, but I know I was not producing enough DPS to complete these. I have taken the steps to 'learn' more about play styles other than mashing the 1-5 keys and moving to the next target... I have changed my primary weapon from Bow to dual wield and I am doing much more dps that I was before, I just have to learn this new weapon style because it is much different than what I was used to. Once I get the skill maxed, at 38 now, and know the play style better, I will try these again. At least I will know that I have advanced my knowledge of the game and be more playable in a group context, if I chose to take part in group content.

Magdalina

neueregel wrote: »

I think that the real thing here is some builds cannot take part in this. I have learned this myself. I played mostly solo since i started. These pledges have DPS checks and I found out, being honest with myself and researching, that I was the weak link in the failures I had with these. There may have been others that were not configured properly as part of the group as well, but I know I was not producing enough DPS to complete these. I have taken the steps to 'learn' more about play styles other than mashing the 1-5 keys and moving to the next target... I have changed my primary weapon from Bow to dual wield and I am doing much more dps that I was before, I just have to learn this new weapon style because it is much different than what I was used to. Once I get the skill maxed, at 38 now, and know the play style better, I will try these again. At least I will know that I have advanced my knowledge of the game and be more playable in a group context, if I chose to take part in group content.

I like your attitude:) I think it's also the kind of attitude ZOS probably aimed to inspire in its players with the new dungeons, but unfortunately it doesn't work so well with everyone.

If you play on NA and need any sort of help/advice, feel free to message me in game=)
...that is if this patch ever finishes downloading, and I'm beginning to have some doubts.

bellanca6561n

And this is what I hope they will accomplish: provide a way for people to grow in group play. Not an easy button. Not a content or success entitlement, but one added path that encourages people to press on.

For so, so many this is their first MMO.

neueregel

bellanca6561n wrote: »

And this is what I hope they will accomplish: provide a way for people to grow in group play. Not an easy button. Not a content or success entitlement, but one added path that encourages people to press on.

For so, so many this is their first MMO.

Not sure that was directed at me... This is not my first MMO, I have been playing MMOs since 1999. I never liked group play and most always spent time hunting by myself. If I did do a quest in a group, there wasnt member limitations like this game,so you had like 15 or more players... the boss went down always . Those games were much easier though when it came to figuring out play styles and damage and such. That said, I think if you invest in any game, you need to understand it no matter the difficulty, if you want to play it. Up until these pledges, it didn't matter to me, because I didn't play in groups. If I did, there wasn't such a hard DPS check. I have never had a hard time advancing to VR14 with the way I was playing. But I do like these pledges, and if I want to do them, I have to adapt. If someone doesn't understand that, they will keep losing at these pledges.

bellanca6561n

neueregel wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

And this is what I hope they will accomplish: provide a way for people to grow in group play. Not an easy button. Not a content or success entitlement, but one added path that encourages people to press on.

For so, so many this is their first MMO.

Not sure that was directed at me... This is not my first MMO, I have been playing MMOs since 1999. I never liked group play and most always spent time hunting by myself. If I did do a quest in a group, there wasnt member limitations like this game,so you had like 15 or more players... the boss went down always . Those games were much easier though when it came to figuring out play styles and damage and such. That said, I think if you invest in any game, you need to understand it no matter the difficulty, if you want to play it. Up until these pledges, it didn't matter to me, because I didn't play in groups. If I did, there wasn't such a hard DPS check. I have never had a hard time advancing to VR14 with the way I was playing. But I do like these pledges, and if I want to do them, I have to adapt. If someone doesn't understand that, they will keep losing at these pledges.

Not at all. It was based on my experience starting pick up groups for the pledges and chatting with folks during those long pauses when we pondered how to avoid the most classic definition of insanity...doing the same thing expecting fresh results

It surprised me really as it had been a LONG time since I'd encountered so many new online game players. And it was also during those pauses as we chatted that I developed an appreciation for these people apart from those face in the crowd experiences you cite which turned you away from group play.

Although this often seems a desert for positive thought, that's one brilliant aspect of this game: in group play you're never a face in the crowd. You really can get a sense for your comrades, even through failure and in such a short time.

And that is what I miss the most from the MMOs of the '80s when I began playing them and most players were new to online games for a very different reason

Beesting

Yes they are too hard, at least for pug groups with no ts3
I have done vet coh yesterday at vr 6 and we wiped 20 times on the second to last boss and 5 times on the last boss before we did it, but then my quest was bugged. Got two blue decon items with the silver key though.

Tonight i did vet darkshade at vr 5 and had to give 40 soulgems to 2 teammates, that had ran out.
We wiped at least 30 times in the dungeon and gave up after spending an hour on the last boss, by then the healer and one dps were allready replaced by other friends...

So that is like 7 k an evening in soulgems, potions and repairbills and many hours trying for hardly any result. We'll see how the next patch changes that.

Black_Wolf88

Beesting wrote: »

Yes they are too hard, at least for pug groups with no ts3
I have done vet coh yesterday at vr 6 and we wiped 20 times on the second to last boss and 5 times on the last boss before we did it, but then my quest was bugged. Got two blue decon items with the silver key though.

Tonight i did vet darkshade at vr 5 and had to give 40 soulgems to 2 teammates, that had ran out.
We wiped at least 30 times in the dungeon and gave up after spending an hour on the last boss, by then the healer and one dps were allready replaced by other friends...

So that is like 7 k an evening in soulgems, potions and repairbills and many hours trying for hardly any result. We'll see how the next patch changes that.

obviously it looks like you guys did a lot of things wrong. number one being not knowing the boss mechanics beforehand and probably tried to figure them out as you went.
Also the two dungeons you speak of require high dps or you will have a higher chance of doing mistakes and wipe as the fight drags out.
next time set the dungeons you dont know very well or know will be hard for your group to vr1. should make it somewhat easier to go trough.

Swen_von_Walhallion

Well i rly disagree whit opinion about scaled dungeon is too hard, i am in rly smal guild, we dont run trials ( well we clear AA and HR this monday 1st time) but ve have no problem clear any veteran dung on max lvl. Wea are mostyl casual players playing for fun and talking bulshits on TS while clering Vr dungs. Bigest problems is, or i mean is, ppl ae too lazy get best eqvip ( and 90% of best eqvip is aviable via craft). Its rly hard spent few mins and thing what and how want i play and make eqvip which fit this style of play. No they get andom eqvip about which thing are cool, and random most cool skill and after cry bc cannot get dung at their lvl. Its why you can meet in pug "healer" with full heavy armor and bow without resto only with templar heals... or similiar tragicomic builds. This game is wonderful bc any class can hold any role from holly trinity but each role have some requiments which cannot be ignored. If you ignore it you can play solo PvE you can go proly normal dung but you are not suposed go in veteran dungs. With my templar i wwas palying tank, DW/2h stamina dps (and have no bad result with this) and end at healer bc we was low on decent healers. Then stop Cry and start using your brains for is suposed to be used, thinking .....


well sry for my EN is terrible and its not my native language :P

bellanca6561n

When you see Jack Daniels' video of his Templar (it's the featured build that's the first link currently in your game launcher) you realize there's an entire dimension to this game - a deep end of the pool - that makes the too easy/too hard arguments an endless round about.

I admire that but that's not the game I'm interested in. I respect that too but I'd have no fun emulating it. I need to see a gorgeous Dunmer woman on my screen, stunningly dressed with just the right dye colors for me to begin to be entertained

Again, and not for the last time alas, this is why the core point is not too easy/too hard. It's a Silver level with one degree of difficulty suitable for a broad range of players and a Gold with something to challenge the Theorycrafters with rewards the Theorycrafters would appreciate.

Nobody wants to see anyone dumping soul gems in the double digits for themselves and their teammates and fail....not on the Silver level.

And, Swen, I agree that it should require thinking even on the first level.

zaria

bellanca6561n wrote: »

And this is what I hope they will accomplish: provide a way for people to grow in group play. Not an easy button. Not a content or success entitlement, but one added path that encourages people to press on.

For so, so many this is their first MMO.

Yes, learned more on healing in the first 1.5 BC than any single event.
We did an veteran fungal grotto last week, took 4 hours

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO

My regular group of four ( V14 NB main tank, V14 Sorc dps, V14 DK dps/off-tank, and V8 Temp healer) tried two scaled dungeons the day this new system first dropped. We were really looking forward to it. Our healer was VR6 then, so we set him as group leader, and charged in guns blazing. The first boss in the normal scaled dungeon quite literally mopped the floor with us.

We're all pretty decent semi-casuals with good coordination and always working together on teamspeak, but we got pulverized in short order. We were a bit surprised at that as we could readily beat upper crag delves and expected similar difficulty. We tried the vet one after that, and also got pounded into dust by the first boss, only a lot faster. We had an absolutely horrible time, and went away pretty irritated and totally uninterested in any further dungeon delving. We pretty much gave up on the whole system at that point and went back to regular stuff.

Tonight after the "slight" power/health adjustment, and with our healer since leveled up to VR8, we took another crack at a scaled dungeon, scaled to VR8 this time, and again normal pledge, not vet. It was a really solid challenge for us. We died a couple times each in various spots, and experienced one pretty epic wipe, which we quickly learned from, and went on to complete the dungeon and get our silver keys. The loot from the chests wasn't exciting at all, but that's not why we did it.

We wanted to see if there was any hope in hell of some actual progression for us, and while we came away slightly frazzled from it we were totally happy and are very motivated to do more soon, and to try progressively harder things if we are able to. I'm sure it would have been a cakewalk for many, but it was a hard won victory for us and we really enjoyed it. Total opposite experience to our first encounters with scaling.

This is what the normal mode silver key pledges should be all about I think, difficult but manageable for a less than 'perfect' group. They should give you a good thumping but not obliterate and demoralize you in five seconds flat. That's what the veteran pledges are for, haha. I think, based only on a very limited first run test, that they might have actually gotten it right here. We'll see I guess.

Merlin13KAGL

Swen_von_Walhallion wrote: »

ve have no problem clear any veteran dung on max lvl. Wea are mostyl casual players playing for fun and talking bulshits on TS while clering Vr dungs. Bigest problems is, or i mean is, ppl ae too lazy get best eqvip ( and 90% of best eqvip is aviable via craft). Its rly hard spent few mins and thing what and how want i play and make eqvip which fit this style of play. No they get andom eqvip about which thing are cool, and random most cool skill and after cry bc cannot get dung at their lvl.

@Swen_von_Walhallion‌ , your English is fine. Your assumptions, however...

Please enlighten the community about which gear sets we're not using that make all the difference? We must be really lazy if you're assuming we're just putting on whatever we find, with a clue-level of less than casual.

bellanca6561n wrote: »

When you see Jack Daniels' video of his Templar (it's the featured build that's the first link currently in your game launcher) you realize there's an entire dimension to this game - a deep end of the pool - that makes the too easy/too hard arguments an endless round about.

It appears well done, I'll give it that. I think that's the other extreme though. How high did the critical have to be with numbers rolling across the screen that way? How is it that the Daedroth barely moves or that the orbs stay all together?

I don't think its representative of a typical run or a typical build. It also appeared to be quite glitch free, which would be a welcome change in itself.

bellanca6561n

Indeed, Merlin, I watch those videos by Jack and blink in both astonishment and bewilderment. It's a bit like what W.C. Fields said about elephants: you marvel at them but you don't want to own one

It's more an expression of the breadth of the game than any sort of answer to the problems that have participants in this topic pondering...

Kraven

As a matter of personal preference I enjoyed the challenge of the new scaling system. I will admit some bosses do need some fine tuning, the waves of adds in Spindle come to mind and Mephala is just annoying if you have integrity and refuse to exploit her. The waves even more so since they were designed before there were AoE caps but that is a whole other issue.

These were challenging fights that we managed to get through and I was really excited for this challenge. Why? It made players step up their game and rise to the challenge. It made you improve instead of bringing the game down to your level you were required to rise to the game's challenge. There are better players now because of this scaling.

With all solo content made so easy to the point of being absolutely boring players ended up with builds that simply don't work, and yes there are and should be builds that do and do not work. The Gargoyle in spindle is a DPS check, not even a tough overly hard dps check. The game NEEDS these kind of checks, whether it's a tank, heal, or dps check.

If you're a tank with 2400 health who doesn't know how to block you should get rolled otherwise what is the point of being a good tank? If you can't heal through the hard mode of Spindle or Darkshade then you should die, otherwise what is the point of being a good healer when a mediocre one is more than enough?

6-700 dps is easy to get and is enough for every dps check outside of trials. Obviously the more you have the faster the fight and the easier time the tank and heals have. I loved the scaling because it forced several players to get better at the roles they chose to play. It doesn't force you into going with any certain predefined build, even tho crushing shock builds are insane atm there are very many builds that can perform the roles adequately.

I've tanked the new dungeons as a NB I've pulled stamina based dps with the same NB. I've healed them as a Sorc and I've pulled dps as a Sorc, although on the low side I'm personally not a fan of mage builds. All set to V12+ only time I scaled them down was to help lower vet guild members get them done.

Some groups can't get them done? So what? Improve yourself to the game don't expect the game to lower itself to you. By doing so it loses the challenge that is enjoyable for many of us.