DO NOT REMOVE ARCANE FIGHTER (2H TALENT)

Xsorus

My problem with that is, you go from a 2 hander passive that's great in PvE and PvP to one that's completely useless in PvP, and worse in PvE then what ya had before.

Thejollygreenone

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

My problem with that is, you go from a 2 hander passive that's great in PvE and PvP to one that's completely useless in PvP, and worse in PvE then what ya had before.

Tested and proven that Arcane Fighter was more dps than Follow-up will be? Is the damage from an elemental enchant's DoT proc that substantial? I get for DK's you have some passives, but what about for someone like me, a nightblade?

My (possibly flawed) perspective:

Because for me, it's just wrecking blow and heavy attack, the only elemental damage would be coming from an enchant, and that's a little hard to believe that the damage done there is such a dps gain.

But then again, I've never been too sure on what enchant I should be using, and running elemental damage enchant on a physical damage build never made much sense to me although I see a lot doing it in trials.
I just always thought the +power or -armor enchants would be better for physical builds but never tested it or got a straight answer when asking.

So if it's known that everyone should be using an elemental enchant already anyway, and it's then furthermore been tested that the dps increase when using Arcane Fighter is so substantial that it's higher than the 200 odd damage that will be added to my Wrecking Blow crits after a heavy, then I'm inclined to totally agree with you, I just haven't heard any concrete evidence on the subject so I'd like to be sure.

But even if all that in the spoiler that I was playing devil's advocate for was actually the case, you still have a point that Arcane fighter worked in both, Follow-up only really works in one, which is undoubtedly a disadvantage regardless.

AshySamurai

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

My problem with that is, you go from a 2 hander passive that's great in PvE and PvP to one that's completely useless in PvP, and worse in PvE then what ya had before.

Arcane Fighter is useless, if you don't have any elemental damage. It's ok to DK with fire. It's pretty ok for Sorc with lightning. And how about Templars and NB? Templars have only one skill with elemental damage - sun fire. NB don't have at all. And new passive works equally for all classes.

Xsorus

AshySamurai wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

My problem with that is, you go from a 2 hander passive that's great in PvE and PvP to one that's completely useless in PvP, and worse in PvE then what ya had before.

Arcane Fighter is useless, if you don't have any elemental damage. It's ok to DK with fire. It's pretty ok for Sorc with lightning. And how about Templars and NB? Templars have only one skill with elemental damage - sun fire. NB don't have at all. And new passive works equally for all classes.

Put fire elemental enchant on your weapon. There is also multiple sets in the game that can proc status effects from their elemental damage

AshySamurai

With so low chance to proc? For now templars and nb the only way to get any profit with arcane fighter is to use only elemental enchant or special set. With new passive all get the same profit. And I agree with it because it's weapon skill line and it must be equally profitable for every class.

Varicite

AshySamurai wrote: »

With so low chance to proc? For now templars and nb the only way to get any profit with arcane fighter is to use only elemental enchant or special set. With new passive all get the same profit. And I agree with it because it's weapon skill line and it must be equally profitable for every class.

It's double the chance to proc as any other weapons, I'm not sure what you're qualifying as "so low chance to proc".

I do agree that the new passive is pretty much worthless in PvP, whereas the last one was at least good for both PvE and PvP.

I've said before, those who generally think Arcane Fighter was not good in PvE are most likely not synergizing w/ the passive correctly. I'm absolutely not faulting the players themselves for this, as the passive itself is not only ambiguously worded, but secondary status effects are ill-explained in-game at best.

The best that I can come up w/ is that the new passive is simply easier to understand and thus utilize to maximize damage in PvE, which is where ZoS seems to be most concerned about balancing the weapons.

AshySamurai

Varicite wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

With so low chance to proc? For now templars and nb the only way to get any profit with arcane fighter is to use only elemental enchant or special set. With new passive all get the same profit. And I agree with it because it's weapon skill line and it must be equally profitable for every class.

It's double the chance to proc as any other weapons, I'm not sure what you're qualifying as "so low chance to proc".

It's ~4sec cooldown and only 10% to proc (20% with arcane fighter). Hope now it's clear what I'm qualifying as so low chance to proc.

Darkonflare15

Varicite wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

With so low chance to proc? For now templars and nb the only way to get any profit with arcane fighter is to use only elemental enchant or special set. With new passive all get the same profit. And I agree with it because it's weapon skill line and it must be equally profitable for every class.

It's double the chance to proc as any other weapons, I'm not sure what you're qualifying as "so low chance to proc".

I do agree that the new passive is pretty much worthless in PvP, whereas the last one was at least good for both PvE and PvP.

I've said before, those who generally think Arcane Fighter was not good in PvE are most likely not synergizing w/ the passive correctly. I'm absolutely not faulting the players themselves for this, as the passive itself is not only ambiguously worded, but secondary status effects are ill-explained in-game at best.

The best that I can come up w/ is that the new passive is simply easier to understand and thus utilize to maximize damage in PvE, which is where ZoS seems to be most concerned about balancing the weapons.

Well Arcane Fighter was only good with synergizing and even then it somewhat ok. The disease enchant not the best enchant even though it can lower health but when I wanted to try an enchant that was not status enchant this skill was completely worthless. I believe something like this is being implemented in the champion system plus I think it is better to have a two hand perk that fits with two hand than a perk that seems to fit with a class.

Sablemane

This passive on its own may not scream PvP, but overall 2H will be much more effective in PvP than today. The new passive is more in line with the weapon skill set, and arcane fighter will most likely be a passive in the champion system.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Sablemane wrote: »

This passive on its own may not scream PvP, but overall 2H will be much more effective in PvP than today. The new passive is more in line with the weapon skill set, and arcane fighter will most likely be a passive in the champion system.

It is more in-line with the weapon, but this is still taking a trait that was once good for pvp AND pve and making it only good for pve? How many full heavy attacks do you do in PvP. You think the Heavy attack - Wrecking blow - heavy attack - Wrecking blow nonsense or anything close to it is going to work in pvp? Your attacks will just get blocked and they'll laugh at you while they kill your non-blockiveness with block-attacking.

Its already been said that heavy attacks in pvp with melee weapons are rare due to the nature of CC, and that in most Cyrodil pvp scenarios there will be way too many people throwing attacks your way to get a heavy attack off before you get CC'd or killed. Arcane fighter was good because most weapon enchants were elemental anyways. A few people do use other enchants, I do on some of my weapons, but elemental enchants are more prevalent. It produced better results than Follow-up ever will. They need to rethink this passive. It doesn't do any good to make some things better skills better, but then murder others. Treadmill balancing right there, not moving anywhere.

zbtiqua

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Thejollygreenone

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

zbtiqua

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

I'm pretty sure you only get stam and the ability synergy when you fully charge a heavy attack. I don't see why you would ever fully charge a heavy attack unless you were out of stam. Why not just light attack -> wrecking blow more often? A light attack does more damage than a partially charged heavy attack anyways.

Erock25

zbtiqua wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

I'm pretty sure you only get stam and the ability synergy when you fully charge a heavy attack. I don't see why you would ever fully charge a heavy attack unless you were out of stam. Why not just light attack -> wrecking blow more often? A light attack does more damage than a partially charged heavy attack anyways.

There is some strange way that heavy attacks can cancel the end of ability animations with cast times ... at least that is how it seems to me. For example it seems that Flurry->Heavy attack -> Flurry -> Heavy attack is better than using the standard Light attack -> Flurry type animation canceling. With Flurry, you can just hold down a heavy attack as soon as you start Flurry animation and it will do full Flurry dmg while removing the tail end of the animation and replacing it with a heavy attack. On Live with Uppercut having a 1s cast time, this method doesn't work very well but on PTS with the 0.8 second cast time it seems to be working very well and reducing Uppercut's animation time. Tough to confirm without addons on PTS, however.

Of course this is mostly a PVE thing, though I do think someone with better reaction time and awareness than I could take advantage of it, especially if they know when someone is out of stamina.

Thejollygreenone

Erock25 wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

I'm pretty sure you only get stam and the ability synergy when you fully charge a heavy attack. I don't see why you would ever fully charge a heavy attack unless you were out of stam. Why not just light attack -> wrecking blow more often? A light attack does more damage than a partially charged heavy attack anyways.

There is some strange way that heavy attacks can cancel the end of ability animations with cast times ... at least that is how it seems to me. For example it seems that Flurry->Heavy attack -> Flurry -> Heavy attack is better than using the standard Light attack -> Flurry type animation canceling. With Flurry, you can just hold down a heavy attack as soon as you start Flurry animation and it will do full Flurry dmg while removing the tail end of the animation and replacing it with a heavy attack. On Live with Uppercut having a 1s cast time, this method doesn't work very well but on PTS with the 0.8 second cast time it seems to be working very well and reducing Uppercut's animation time. Tough to confirm without addons on PTS, however.

Of course this is mostly a PVE thing, though I do think someone with better reaction time and awareness than I could take advantage of it, especially if they know when someone is out of stamina.

^ This, said just about everything I was going to ^.^

And I actually went on the pts and tested @zbtiqua 's idea of using light attacks with wrecking blow instead, it was actually 100-200 dps less than wrecking blow weaving with heavy attacks for me, although of course as @Erock25 mentioned it's actually being clipped to a duration that would qualify as a partial charged, but instead registers as a complete heavy.

Furthermore I can confirm that you still get the stamina return when clipping the heavy attacks to partial length in this way with this combo, it even happens on live for me.

It's still seeming to me that wrecking blow-heavy attack weaving will be the go-to 2h rotation for pre-execute phase trial/vr dungeon boss fights.

zbtiqua

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

I'm pretty sure you only get stam and the ability synergy when you fully charge a heavy attack. I don't see why you would ever fully charge a heavy attack unless you were out of stam. Why not just light attack -> wrecking blow more often? A light attack does more damage than a partially charged heavy attack anyways.

There is some strange way that heavy attacks can cancel the end of ability animations with cast times ... at least that is how it seems to me. For example it seems that Flurry->Heavy attack -> Flurry -> Heavy attack is better than using the standard Light attack -> Flurry type animation canceling. With Flurry, you can just hold down a heavy attack as soon as you start Flurry animation and it will do full Flurry dmg while removing the tail end of the animation and replacing it with a heavy attack. On Live with Uppercut having a 1s cast time, this method doesn't work very well but on PTS with the 0.8 second cast time it seems to be working very well and reducing Uppercut's animation time. Tough to confirm without addons on PTS, however.

Of course this is mostly a PVE thing, though I do think someone with better reaction time and awareness than I could take advantage of it, especially if they know when someone is out of stamina.

^ This, said just about everything I was going to ^.^

And I actually went on the pts and tested @zbtiqua 's idea of using light attacks with wrecking blow instead, it was actually 100-200 dps less than wrecking blow weaving with heavy attacks for me, although of course as @Erock25 mentioned it's actually being clipped to a duration that would qualify as a partial charged, but instead registers as a complete heavy.

Furthermore I can confirm that you still get the stamina return when clipping the heavy attacks to partial length in this way with this combo, it even happens on live for me.

It's still seeming to me that wrecking blow-heavy attack weaving will be the go-to 2h rotation for pre-execute phase trial/vr dungeon boss fights.

Hmm, alright then. I imagine if you are triggering the new 2H passive, that probably accounts for the majority of your gain there, but I haven't tried clipping the animations like that so I guess it might be good. What would be interesting to see, however, is how these rotations compare with and without the new 2H buff and arcane fighter, respectively. I think that is the main point of the OP here.

I still think in a lot of cases, fully charging heavy attacks will be pretty cumbersome. But maybe in a straight tank-and-spank type scenario there is a place for it, according to your data.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

PLEASE do not remove this talent, merge your new talent with this one. It's the best 2h passive you have and you guys are unintentionally destroying a lot of specs by trying to buff the tree.

Yep. Arcane Fighter is pretty useful, whereas the new passive is pretty bad because no one fully charges heavy attacks, unless they don't know how to math. The new passive would have to be probably at least twice as strong now to be even worth putting points in IMO.

When would you ever fully charge a heavy attack with a 2H unless you are out of stam? At which point, you already failed at DPS. It makes no sense at all.

Are you talking about.. pvp, or pve..? (It makes a large difference)

-If pvp, I agree with everything you just said.
-If pve, I become curious and must ask, what did you have in mind as the best rotation for 2h instead of weaving heavy attacks?

I always thought wrecking blow-heavy attack was what people would use if anyone actually brought a 2h into trials (before execute phase of course)
Especially after 1.5 it's netting around 1.2k sustained dps for me, compared to the 800-900 if lucky before (simply those two actions while buffed)

So if there's some common knowledge here of a build better than this for 2h, please break me the news of my ignorance, as I'd like to do the most dps with my 2h as is possible. But I haven't found an ability sequence that nets better sustained dps.

However if you were just speaking of pvp then ignore those last two paragraphs

EDIT: There's also the possibility that you just meant people only used partial heavy attacks. In which case I'd say, even when clipping a heavy attack to partial length with a wrecking blow, it's still considered a heavy attack and restores stamina the same, and actives the follow-up passive. The same effect happens with DW and flurry.

I'm pretty sure you only get stam and the ability synergy when you fully charge a heavy attack. I don't see why you would ever fully charge a heavy attack unless you were out of stam. Why not just light attack -> wrecking blow more often? A light attack does more damage than a partially charged heavy attack anyways.

There is some strange way that heavy attacks can cancel the end of ability animations with cast times ... at least that is how it seems to me. For example it seems that Flurry->Heavy attack -> Flurry -> Heavy attack is better than using the standard Light attack -> Flurry type animation canceling. With Flurry, you can just hold down a heavy attack as soon as you start Flurry animation and it will do full Flurry dmg while removing the tail end of the animation and replacing it with a heavy attack. On Live with Uppercut having a 1s cast time, this method doesn't work very well but on PTS with the 0.8 second cast time it seems to be working very well and reducing Uppercut's animation time. Tough to confirm without addons on PTS, however.

Of course this is mostly a PVE thing, though I do think someone with better reaction time and awareness than I could take advantage of it, especially if they know when someone is out of stamina.

^ This, said just about everything I was going to ^.^

And I actually went on the pts and tested @zbtiqua 's idea of using light attacks with wrecking blow instead, it was actually 100-200 dps less than wrecking blow weaving with heavy attacks for me, although of course as @Erock25 mentioned it's actually being clipped to a duration that would qualify as a partial charged, but instead registers as a complete heavy.

Furthermore I can confirm that you still get the stamina return when clipping the heavy attacks to partial length in this way with this combo, it even happens on live for me.

It's still seeming to me that wrecking blow-heavy attack weaving will be the go-to 2h rotation for pre-execute phase trial/vr dungeon boss fights.

I see what you two are saying. I just tested on some mammoths and if you simply hold the attack button down, and activate uppercuts before heavy attacks end, the end animation of the heavy attack will get canceled by uppercut and the end animation of uppercut will get canceled by starting heavy attack.

This also leads me to say again that the animations are too slow for the cast times. The full animation of uppercut brings your sword to the rear of your character, a full swing. Canceling it it is still in front of you just over your head a bit. A full animation of heavy attack does the same thing, but canceling that last animation will stop the swing before it leaves over-head and you will still get full damage from it.

http://youtu.be/iq_LwJ1N1-g


And more fluidly.
http://youtu.be/0fHKTDfRAuA