Templars - worst resto staff users?

Nerouyn

So I normally play caster healers in most MMOs. I went with Templar for my first character, have him up to level 22 and have done some group content.

I'm a little disappointed. I know the class was originally designed as a melee healer, with Warden defensive spellcasters canned, and I think that shows in Templar design. All but one of the heals (rushed ceremony) being pbaoe you need to (roughly) position yourself in the middle of your group. It's not ideal for my tastes but probably great for melee types.

I love the other two Templar skill lines and considered ignoring most of the Templar heals (except rushed ceremony of course) in favour of restoration staff heals which are more to my liking. But, if I'm reading the skill descriptions in-game and on the online builders correctly, Templars are the worst class with restoration staff heals.

Sorcerers get surge which boosts weapon damage and accordingly resto staff heals. I crunched the numbers on my level 9 sorc with a level 9 weapon and surge's description had it boosting my weapon damage stat by about 30% which equated to a 13% increase in healing output for abilities. That was only for a level 1 surge too. I have to assume the weapon damage stat boost gets bigger as you level the skill?

Dragon Knights get molten weapons which also boosts weapon damage. Its magnitude of effect is of course much smaller than surge, since it has a longer duration and also affects allies. But DK's also have the igneous shield morph which boosts healing done by 30% for 6 seconds.

Nightblades get a weapon damage boost from drain power plus a selection of HoTs which would stack nicely with resto staff HoTs. And haste would let them execute the resto staff heavy attack heal more often.

Templars get a 4% weapon damage boost from the balanced warrior passive. Their only other weapon damage boost comes from the power of the light morph and it doesn't seem to last very long and seems to be much smaller than what other classes get.

So it looks like Templars are the weakest profession with restoration staff heals. I don't underestimate the value of rushed ceremony or rite of passage. No other profession gets an equivalent (currently - may change with spellcrafting?). But as someone who wants to play a stand-at-the-back-of-the-crowd healer using mainly resto staff heals, it looks like Templars are the worst option for me?

Nerouyn

I'll take the absence of disagreement as an indication I have it right.

Looks like sorcerer or maybe nightblades might suit me better.

Khivas_Carrick

Not entirely but you're onto it though. Templars staff heals aren't as strong because it'd be breaking the game if they did. That said the ability to use a Resto staff makes them easily the best healers around

Nerouyn

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Templars staff heals aren't as strong because it'd be breaking the game if they did.

Exactly how do you claim it would be game breaking?

Dragonknights get fire damage class abilities. By your logic they should suck when using fire destruction staff abilities.

A player only has so many slots on their hotbar, only so much magicka, and can only execute one ability at a time. All that making Templars the weakest at using the restoration staff heals achieves is making them less versatile. If they suck with the staff relative to every other class it effectively forces them to use their class heals.

It's a bizarre imbalance.

Not that I care at all. I'm perfectly happy to turn my Templar into a dedicated crafter and go with a different class. I just wanted to check that I hadn't missed something.

Khivas_Carrick

Weakest =/= terrible or non-versitile. And you're right, entirely absolutely right by my logic which is why DKs are op, but that's for another day.

For starters, spell power still raises Resto and Destro staff skills, not weapon power, unless that's been changed, I don't make it a habit to use staffs all that often. Second, Templars still use resto staffs when healing, and like I said, we may not be loaded with passives and actives that super boost Resto skills, but our burst heals alone still makes us the primo healing class above all others.

That is to say thanks to their own abilities that other classes can't heal, because they can. I just feel most comfortable when I see a templar healer

Nerouyn

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Weakest =/= terrible or non-versitile.

I so very clearly did not say that.

What I said was that the style of healing I prefer is ranged. Templar heals are primarily pbaoe, which is fantasic for melee. Not my thing though. The only ranged Templar heal is rushed ceremony.

Follow the logic.

1) My interest is ranged healing.
2) Nearly all ranged heals are on the restoration staff.
3) Templars are the weakest users of the restoration staff, because of the aforementioned bonuses other classes get for resto staff heals.
4) Templar is clearly a bad class choice for me.

NOT

4) Templars = terrible or non-versatile.

Now just to address the versatility issue, because I raised it but didn't make the claim you say, what I said was that making Templars the weakest with restoration staff heals only limits their versatility. That's all it achieves.

You'd have to say they're marginally more versatile (healing-wise) than other classes. Even though they suck by comparison with resto staff heals and relying on them too heavily wouldn't work, they're still extra kinds of heals which might occasionally be useful.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

For starters, spell power still raises Resto and Destro staff skills, not weapon power, unless that's been changed, I don't make it a habit to use staffs all that often.

That's definitely wrong. Weapon power absolutely affects restoration staff heal strength. I tested this last week by equipping higher/lower level weapons and using DK molten weapons, and checking resto staff heal tooltips.

As outlined in the OP I crunched the numbers to see exactly how much of an impact it has and it's significant.

I can't speak to history but in all my reading of guides, builders, forum posts etc. I've never seen anyone claim resto staff heals scale from spell power. They always say weapon power.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Second, Templars still use resto staffs when healing, and like I said, we may not be loaded with passives and actives that super boost Resto skills, but our burst heals alone still makes us the primo healing class above all others.

Ok, to re-iterate again, I don't have a fetish for restoration staves. What I have is a preference for ranged healing. So you can see how equipping a restoration staff and using Templar pbaoe heals is completely irrelevant.

The fact a Templar is semi-forced to equip a restoration staff for the benefit of its passives applying to class heals is actually a huge negative. The thing about class abilities is you can use them with any weapon.... except when it comes to Templars playing a healer role. Because of the resto staff passives to maximise healing you need to equip one (if playing a dedicated healer role) even if you're not using any of its abilities.

The advantage Templars have is if not playing a dedicated healer role they can put one or two heals on their hotbars as a backup without needing to have a resto staff equipped. Not insignificant but if I understand the upcoming spellcrafting changes it's an advantage that will soon disappear.

Neyephe

I think to each their own. I much rather heal a party on my templar. I have built up my healing on my mage and I have a much more difficult time healing in a dungeon with my mage than my templar. I like my mage for pvp healing more than dungeon healing. Haven't had my templar in pvp enough to know which I prefer.

Khivas_Carrick

Learn something new everyday

Sestar

Hello,

EDIT: quick recap of my posting below, I did not really answer the thead starter's question, or counter their statement, which is something like this: "to heal at range the Templar needs a restoration staff."

When not using a restoration staff, the templar is an aura/cleansing platform; the other heals are too expensive or slow.


Now back to original posting. ^^

When in (tank/)heal role in Cyro I use the following skill-setup:
(My Templar is level 31 now; several skillpoints went to crafting, too..)

1H/sword
+ Radiant Aura (stam/health regen aura with 18m radius morph)
+ Harness magicka (light armor morph, spell damage -> restore magicka)
+ Breath of Life (3-target morph)
+ Absorb Magick (1h weapon shield def morph, spell damage -> heal self)
+ Ransack (1h weapon with +armor morph)

Resto Stick
+ Circle of Protection (not morphed yet); stamina consumer!
+ Cleansing Ritual (not morphed yet)
+ Breath of Life (3-target morph)
+ Illustrous Healing (4 ticks resto stick ranged AOE heal)
+ Rapid Regeneration (faster stronger ticks)

I went for more healing with a cast (breath, illustrious) morphs than the magicka-return other people prefer (healing springs, honor the dead); it works well for me.

The circles/ranges on the stamina regenation aura and cleansing ritual are are large enough for most battles. Both give a not-too-bad long ticking health regenration or heal, which often is looked past. Additionally you can ransack/taunt one or two NPCs, then turtle up and keep stam regen running forever. Absorb Magick helps with those nasty big spells. Takes the pressure of the squishies in your group. ^^

When using the restoration stick I move closer to group, (first toggle sword, activate aura, then switch back to staff) set the protection and cleansing circles, then back off and put the restoration stick healing circle on the group.

The 2.0 or 1.7 second cast from the Templar class skills is just asking to take a bash, venom arrow or any of the other "stun when channeling" abilities. So I am not using it.

Regards,
Sestar

Nerouyn

Sestar wrote: »

EDIT: quick recap of my posting below, I did not really answer the thead starter's question, or counter their statement, which is something like this: "to heal at range the Templar needs a restoration staff."

When not using a restoration staff, the templar is an aura/cleansing platform; the other heals are too expensive or slow.

Not even remotely accurate but thanks for stopping by!

Thrymbauld

The versatility continues to make up for it, even if your preference is ranged healing.

Yes, if you're going to hang in the back and just wipe if things got too close, the templar heals aren't much of a help(and no, I'm not saying you said that).

The addition of purify and blessed shards are huge--and shards are ranged, they'll fit nicely on a resto staff bar. These things make up for any lack of actual output by letting people fend for themselves. No healing power in the game gets rid of the damage of an over time effect as efficiently as purify. Provided their keyboard came equipped with an X key, you've just largely negated the need to heal through things that can be purged or blocked.

Keep in mind that being a ranged healer doesn't exactly mean you won't be close to people that need healing anyway. There are plenty of ranged damage dealers and the like--if your purposes are PvP, for example, you're standing in the whole group most of the time anyway.

But yes, you're right. If you're going to go straight healer and are completely unwilling to EVER be in a 10 meter radius of your targets, the Templar restoration line and by extension the whole class isn't a good fit.

Nerouyn

Thrymbauld wrote: »

The versatility continues to make up for it, even if your preference is ranged healing.

Not from my perspective.

Having the option to do something I don't want to do - pbaoe heal - adds nothing for me.

I've since levelled a sorcerer to 20 and run him through a dungeon as a healer and I much, much, much prefer him. That's very pre surge too, so my resto staff heals at this stage aren't stronger than my templar's. But I find the resto staff heals so much more fun to use.

Side benefit - as someone who thinks ESO shouldn't have classes at all, the sorc feels more like the classless single player games to me since they don't have a narrow theme like the other 3. I've been enjoying the game a lot more as a sorc.

So that worked out well. I'm back on the fence about staying subbed rather than definitely unsubbing and waiting for spellcrafting.

Zsymon

Templar casters had to pay a lot to be the best healers and to be immortal in solo pve.

Sad thing is, there's no reason to solo all the time, and any other class can heal well enough for all content, so both advantages are quite useless, where as the penalty we paid cuts away a lot of content for us. Most templars will never see the inside of a Trial, because most groups only need/accept one single templar, some not even that and they use a healer of a different class.

But considering ZOS' track record until now, I am sure they will continue to improve under-performing class skills and passives. I am very pleased so far with the effort ZOS is putting into this game. They may not be the best coders, with all the bugs and whatnot appearing after every patch, but they will keep working on it until they get it right, that gives me confidence to stay with this game for as long as they keep putting in effort. I just hope ESO never becomes free-to-play.

parangea

Holy [snip], you're going to be so pissed you chose for Sorcerer when the patch comes that sticks use spell damage in stead of weapon damage!

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Francescolg

Sestar wrote: »

1H/sword
+ Radiant Aura (stam/health regen aura with 18m radius morph)
+ Harness magicka (light armor morph, spell damage -> restore magicka)
+ Breath of Life (3-target morph)
+ Absorb Magick (1h weapon shield def morph, spell damage -> heal self)
+ Ransack (1h weapon with +armor morph)

Resto Stick
+ Circle of Protection (not morphed yet); stamina consumer!
+ Cleansing Ritual (not morphed yet)
+ Breath of Life (3-target morph)
+ Illustrous Healing (4 ticks resto stick ranged AOE heal)
+ Rapid Regeneration (faster stronger ticks)

Hail Templar compagnon! Pretty well build!
Remember that you can be a very good healer just by using Breath of Life and Healing Springs/Regeneration alone. Rapid Regen is nice but for Ultimate Regen I'd go just for the "Healing Field".

To your quite perfect build some ideas:
- Consider taking in Radiant Aura instead of Ransack and spam it every 10 seconds = Much more blocking++ (too much to write here)
- Consider taking immovable instead of Circle. Every second spell that hits you comes with CC abilities / or triggers a CC ability! A CC'd healer is a dead healer! When not blocking use immovable combined with Radiant Aura/Repentence
- Consider Rapid maneuvre (+ immovable) so you can always heal in any emergency where you must move quickly to save lives. Otherwise you stand in DK perma-root or caltrops or oil catapult, etc. etc, without (enough) stamina.
- Use Spell Symetry for magicka gain. Before using it pop your cleansing ritual and than use it (ticks will heal you) or use the "red bubble". Harness Magicka's magicka gain did not convince me to spam it (cost/gain-ratio), just my 2 cents.

Pretty perfect templar build. What misses is: Blazing Shield for dmg maybe 1 DD spell

Pyatra

parangea wrote: »

Holy [snip], you're going to be so pissed you chose for Sorcerer when the patch comes that sticks use spell damage in stead of weapon damage!

Yep, that's a thing coming on the horizon. Not sure when but it's happening. If they scale it right we can max spell damage and still do roughly the same, but not sure if they will scale it differently. I hope so as Spell Damage has a much lower cap on it than weapon damage.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

thri11co11ector

parangea wrote: »

Holy [snip], you're going to be so pissed you chose for Sorcerer when the patch comes that sticks use spell damage in stead of weapon damage!

This change is welcomed but also going to mess up a lot of focused builds.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

cote-bmsb16_ESO

My templar healer is really good, and sorcs can't compete in terms of healing for AA or v14 undaunted challenges. Instead of more weapon power to get more heals, I invested in crit chance instead. It works out way better. A boss hits my tank for 1k, I can heal him up for 1200*+ with breathe of life.

Nightreaver

Francescolg wrote: »

Hail Templar compagnon! Pretty well build!
Remember that you can be a very good healer just by using Breath of Life and Healing Springs/Regeneration alone.

That pretty much sums up why I feel the Templar makes the best Healer with the Resto staff. The direct heals from the Templar class line combined with the HOTs from the staff line. HOTs are nice except for when they can't keep pace with the damage or substitute for a direct heal when someone takes a sudden huge damage spike.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Sorcerers get surge which boosts weapon damage and accordingly resto staff heals. I crunched the numbers on my level 9 sorc with a level 9 weapon and surge's description had it boosting my weapon damage stat by about 30% which equated to a 13% increase in healing output for abilities. That was only for a level 1 surge too. I have to assume the weapon damage stat boost gets bigger as you level the skill?

It doesn't.
I just tested. I reset my abilities. There was no difference between weapon damage increase at the first level of Surge and the tier 4 morphed version.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Nightreaver wrote: »

Francescolg wrote: »

Hail Templar compagnon! Pretty well build!
Remember that you can be a very good healer just by using Breath of Life and Healing Springs/Regeneration alone.

That pretty much sums up why I feel the Templar makes the best Healer with the Resto staff. The direct heals from the Templar class line combined with the HOTs from the staff line. HOTs are nice except for when they can't keep pace with the damage or substitute for a direct heal when someone takes a sudden huge damage spike.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Sorcerers get surge which boosts weapon damage and accordingly resto staff heals. I crunched the numbers on my level 9 sorc with a level 9 weapon and surge's description had it boosting my weapon damage stat by about 30% which equated to a 13% increase in healing output for abilities. That was only for a level 1 surge too. I have to assume the weapon damage stat boost gets bigger as you level the skill?

It doesn't.
I just tested. I reset my abilities. There was no difference between weapon damage increase at the first level of Surge and the tier 4 morphed version.

If I remember correctly the magicka cost of Surge gets reduced when it ranks up.

Nightreaver

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly the magicka cost of Surge gets reduced when it ranks up.

I reset my morphs on PTS to test.
Surge IV (pre morph) costs 332 Magicka
Critical Surge IV (max rank morphed) costs 332 Magicka

Did you invest in Magicka reducing skills or gear while leveling Surge?