PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ARCANE FIGHTER

Pixysticks

Please do not remove this talent like the proposed changes at the guild summit, can you please just merge the new talent into this one or something?

Khivas_Carrick

That would be swell but I have a feeling that it'd be a bit OP for people.

Xsorus

I agree with this, removing 2 handers best trait is silly

Khivas_Carrick

Best? Not so sure on that one, but I will say it could be baked into something else. Still, I would much rather see Heavy Weapons get scaled properly so that it's always scaling, unlike the static bullcrap that it is presently set to, among other passive fixes.

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Best? Not so sure on that one, but I will say it could be baked into something else. Still, I would much rather see Heavy Weapons get scaled properly so that it's always scaling, unlike the static bullcrap that it is presently set to, among other passive fixes.

This, a thousand times this. The 120 bleed damage over 10 seconds for axe and 80 armor ignored for mace is just pitiful compared to the universally scaling 5% damage of sword.

*** is in dire need of change.

Pixysticks

Well the bleed is actually good (although it could be for more), since you just generate ult every time the bleeds tick. But the ignoring 80 armor for mace is so pathetic I don't even know what to say.

Thejollygreenone

Pixysticks wrote: »

Well the bleed is actually good (although it could be for more), since you just generate ult every time the bleeds tick. But the ignoring 80 armor for mace is so pathetic I don't even know what to say.

Well, you generate ult every time the bleed crits, just like any other DoT it doesn't generate ult without critting, just tested it since you brought it up ^.^

But with that being said, yeah it adds ult generation nonetheless, which is nice, but I'd hardly say that said ult gen plus the pitiful 8 damage per tick bleed damage is even close to equal to the 5% provided by sword.

I would even argue that it's just as pitiful as the mace bonus, because at least with ignoring 80 armor, if you're attacking a REALLY squishy target (800-1k armor) who also happens to not use armor/spell resist active buffs, then you're actually ignoring 8-10% of armor, which is not as bad as 'ignores 80 armor' sounds.

Regardless, the 5% bonus of sword is miles ahead of either option. If I had my way, axe would do a bleed based on a percentage of the damage done in the attack that triggers the bleed, and mace would ignore a flat % of armor. Then we'd surely see some decent scaling in a format comparable to the sword bonus.

Pixysticks

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Well the bleed is actually good (although it could be for more), since you just generate ult every time the bleeds tick. But the ignoring 80 armor for mace is so pathetic I don't even know what to say.

Well, you generate ult every time the bleed crits, just like any other DoT it doesn't generate ult without critting, just tested it since you brought it up ^.^

But with that being said, yeah it adds ult generation nonetheless, which is nice, but I'd hardly say that said ult gen plus the pitiful 8 damage per tick bleed damage is even close to equal to the 5% provided by sword.

I would even argue that it's just as pitiful as the mace bonus, because at least with ignoring 80 armor, if you're attacking a REALLY squishy target (800-1k armor) who also happens to not use armor/spell resist active buffs, then you're actually ignoring 8-10% of armor, which is not as bad as 'ignores 80 armor' sounds.

Regardless, the 5% bonus of sword is miles ahead of either option. If I had my way, axe would do a bleed based on a percentage of the damage done in the attack that triggers the bleed, and mace would ignore a flat % of armor. Then we'd surely see some decent scaling in a format comparable to the sword bonus.

Do you know how much ult youre actually generating from bleeds? I don't think you do, comparing 5% damage to being able to keep an ultimate up a lot faster is debatable, throwing it int he same category as 80 less armor, is not.

Thejollygreenone

Pixysticks wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Well the bleed is actually good (although it could be for more), since you just generate ult every time the bleeds tick. But the ignoring 80 armor for mace is so pathetic I don't even know what to say.

Well, you generate ult every time the bleed crits, just like any other DoT it doesn't generate ult without critting, just tested it since you brought it up ^.^

But with that being said, yeah it adds ult generation nonetheless, which is nice, but I'd hardly say that said ult gen plus the pitiful 8 damage per tick bleed damage is even close to equal to the 5% provided by sword.

I would even argue that it's just as pitiful as the mace bonus, because at least with ignoring 80 armor, if you're attacking a REALLY squishy target (800-1k armor) who also happens to not use armor/spell resist active buffs, then you're actually ignoring 8-10% of armor, which is not as bad as 'ignores 80 armor' sounds.

Regardless, the 5% bonus of sword is miles ahead of either option. If I had my way, axe would do a bleed based on a percentage of the damage done in the attack that triggers the bleed, and mace would ignore a flat % of armor. Then we'd surely see some decent scaling in a format comparable to the sword bonus.

Do you know how much ult youre actually generating from bleeds? I don't think you do, comparing 5% damage to being able to keep an ultimate up a lot faster is debatable, throwing it int he same category as 80 less armor, is not.

Enlighten me. As I said, as far as I know bleeds generate as much ultimate as any other DoT, being one ultimate per crit. One ultimate every other tick, assuming ~50% crit chance means one extra ultimate per 4 seconds.

Axe Bleed ult gen further evaluation:

That's 15 ult per minute. It's something, better than nothing certainly, but is still quite small. Being able to keep up an ultimate a lot faster? To me sounds more like barely faster. To be fair though, this isn't taking potions into consideration, especially if the build in question uses potion cooldown reduction jewelry enchants.

But that just complicates things, however even at 75% crit chance we're still only looking at 23 ultimate per minute. 100% chance only nets 30 ultimate per minute, a measly 15% of the cost of my veil of blades over the course of 60 seconds.

But taking all of that out of mind, you seem to misunderstand me, I'm not saying it's JUST as bad as the mace bonus, it's clearly better as any added ultimate gain is welcome, however maybe not at the expense of 5% overall damage. And that is the category I lumped both mace and axe into, not worth losing 5% overall damage from sword to use. I apologize if I presented my thoughts as otherwise there.

Feel free to correct me if there's something I'm missing regarding 2h axe's bleed ultimate gain and how much dps it produces, and it turns out I don't actually know how much ult is being generated from this bleed. Or if I'm underestimating how much dps that maximum 30 ultimate per minute equates to, just the same, please correct me and elaborate. I'd love to have some justification to pick up an axe for more than just aesthetic purposes

Unless you explain whatever it is I seem to be missing, my point remains, calling the axe bonus good still seems quite far fetched when the 5% damage bonus for swords is around.

Pixysticks

What you seem to be missing is that it can proc on more than one person...lol

Thejollygreenone

Pixysticks wrote: »

What you seem to be missing is that it can proc on more than one person...lol

I guess, fair enough that it will help more in aoe situations. Though it seems it only procs from light/heavies, could be totally wrong on that. If you're not a nightblade and don't have the siphoning trees ult gen, then this may be somewhat useful, but still strictly in aoe situations.

Regardless, the single target contribution is what I'm concerned about, ie against bosses. Not to mention some, if not many (so far), are immune to bleeds anyway. So against bosses, and in 1v1 pvp situations, it still seems quite underwhelming.

Khivas_Carrick

Truth be told I didn't have much love for Arcane Fighter anyway, not unless it like made the weapon enchant proc constantly on every hit but only cost like once every 3 or 4 hits, or some crazy jazz like that.

Still, 2H needs love and it's about damn time it's getting it.

Xsorus

If axe bleed crit works like Twin Sisters set, you don't need it to crit to give ultimate..I know that set spits out crazy amount of Ultimate even though it rarely crits.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Truth be told I didn't have much love for Arcane Fighter anyway, not unless it like made the weapon enchant proc constantly on every hit but only cost like once every 3 or 4 hits, or some crazy jazz like that.

Still, 2H needs love and it's about damn time it's getting it.

It doesn't make Weapon Enchants proc constantly, it makes Weapon Enchants Status Effects Proc constantly.

For example..Disease Damage Weapon Enchants status effect is a Healing Debuff. Now go put disease on your weapon then pickup something like Afflicted heavy Armor set which also has a disease proc, With 2 hander up you basically can keep a healing debuff perma on the target.

Thejollygreenone

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

If axe bleed crit works like Twin Sisters set, you don't need it to crit to give ultimate..I know that set spits out crazy amount of Ultimate even though it rarely crits.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Truth be told I didn't have much love for Arcane Fighter anyway, not unless it like made the weapon enchant proc constantly on every hit but only cost like once every 3 or 4 hits, or some crazy jazz like that.

Still, 2H needs love and it's about damn time it's getting it.

It doesn't make Weapon Enchants proc constantly, it makes Weapon Enchants Status Effects Proc constantly.

For example..Disease Damage Weapon Enchants status effect is a Healing Debuff. Now go put disease on your weapon then pickup something like Afflicted heavy Armor set which also has a disease proc, With 2 hander up you basically can keep a healing debuff perma on the target.

As far as I could tell from my quick testing of it yesterday, it doesn't build any more than when it crits, so I doubt it runs by the same rules that the Twin Sisters set does.

Back to the topic of the thread, arcane fighter, yeah the only real benefit that we see out of this passive is for the healing debuff from disease damage.

The status effects on other elemental damage really doesn't make much sense to use with a weapontype that only offers physical damage. I personally welcome the heavy attack damage increase as a change, though I will of course miss my healing debuff from the disease enchant.

Khivas_Carrick

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

If axe bleed crit works like Twin Sisters set, you don't need it to crit to give ultimate..I know that set spits out crazy amount of Ultimate even though it rarely crits.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Truth be told I didn't have much love for Arcane Fighter anyway, not unless it like made the weapon enchant proc constantly on every hit but only cost like once every 3 or 4 hits, or some crazy jazz like that.

Still, 2H needs love and it's about damn time it's getting it.

It doesn't make Weapon Enchants proc constantly, it makes Weapon Enchants Status Effects Proc constantly.

For example..Disease Damage Weapon Enchants status effect is a Healing Debuff. Now go put disease on your weapon then pickup something like Afflicted heavy Armor set which also has a disease proc, With 2 hander up you basically can keep a healing debuff perma on the target.

I think you misunderstood me. I know what it did, I know that it applies an elemental debuff to a target. I like that. What I do not like is that it's still a damn chance for a weapon to proc it's enchant. If a sword is on fire, god damn it it needs to be burning them every damn time you hit them with it.

That much just makes sense to me. And frankly I'd much rather 5/10% boost to heavy attacks anyway since people tend to weave Heavies in with Uppercut.

Crescent

The bleeds need to go on ALL weaponsets so long as this game has such a vast amount of mobs that are immune to bleeding.

Blood Craze from DW, axe bleed passives from both 2h and DW, are all utterly underpowered not only because all DoT's in this game suck big time damage wise, but because a large part of the game is arbitrarily immune to them.

Xsorus

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

If axe bleed crit works like Twin Sisters set, you don't need it to crit to give ultimate..I know that set spits out crazy amount of Ultimate even though it rarely crits.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Truth be told I didn't have much love for Arcane Fighter anyway, not unless it like made the weapon enchant proc constantly on every hit but only cost like once every 3 or 4 hits, or some crazy jazz like that.

Still, 2H needs love and it's about damn time it's getting it.

It doesn't make Weapon Enchants proc constantly, it makes Weapon Enchants Status Effects Proc constantly.

For example..Disease Damage Weapon Enchants status effect is a Healing Debuff. Now go put disease on your weapon then pickup something like Afflicted heavy Armor set which also has a disease proc, With 2 hander up you basically can keep a healing debuff perma on the target.

I think you misunderstood me. I know what it did, I know that it applies an elemental debuff to a target. I like that. What I do not like is that it's still a damn chance for a weapon to proc it's enchant. If a sword is on fire, god damn it it needs to be burning them every damn time you hit them with it.

That much just makes sense to me. And frankly I'd much rather 5/10% boost to heavy attacks anyway since people tend to weave Heavies in with Uppercut.

Weapon Enchants pretty much go off every 5 seconds for the lesser ones (like fire/cold ect ect) and 10 seconds for other (damage shield)...You can reduce this with Torgs Pact armor set and Powered

Khivas_Carrick

Well after reading what the patch says, 5/10% boost to all damage works wonders for me I say

Crescent

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Well after reading what the patch says, 5/10% boost to all damage works wonders for me I say

The bonus only comes after a heavy attack, and heavy attack on 2H is atrocious DPS. At best it's a wash, because whatever you gain from that 5/10% you lose by being forced to use heavy attacks instead of light attack weaving in animation cancels.

And the sad part is they're doing it. It's on the PTRS, so this change is there to stay.

The 1.6 notes and changes to 2H were insignificant in their impact.


Other than the bow with Snipe (which will get rivers of tears from PvP people), stamina weapons will still be kind of bad.

And even with the bow pulling similar DPS to caster builds post-1.6, you will lack the AoE powerhouse that impulse and DK/Templar AoE class skills are.

Khivas_Carrick

It's 1.5 I thought? Alsoit lasts 7 Seconds, so if you want to weave you can, go ahead still, just be sure to incorporate them heavies in.

Also isn't there a build that revolves around heavy attacking and using Uppercut with class skills DoTs? Could've sworn there was, but not like those would matter much if most boss fights are all DPS races with immensely short timers or simple grind fests.

In a sustained environment I could see heavy attacking helping quite a bit, or simply put ZoS could get off their arse and eliminate attack weaving.