Eclipse, Total Dark, and Unstable Core are all terribly designed.

jrgray93

I spent a couple of skill points to get Eclipse -> Unstable Core. I thought this spell would be cool in PVP. It could shut down casters and provide a bit of AOE DPS from afar. I thought wrong.

The mechanics behind this spell are very poorly designed. I noted many times I would spam the button and the ability would not cast. No error message, no feedback at all. Just no casting. I went as far as reporting this as a game bug before I figured out what was going on.

It turns out Eclipse and its morphs are subject to CC break lockout timers. This seems perfectly understandable, since it would otherwise cripple casters entirely. What's not understandable is that the spell does absolutely nothing when lockout timers are active. Nowhere in-game does it tell you about lockout timers and how they would apply to this spell. You're left to figure it out on your own. In a game that is notorious for unresponsive combat and a plethora of bugs, it comes as no surprise when a spell doesn't seem to work. It isn't seen as a game mechanic. It's seen as a problem. It feels like a problem. This would be like Shield Charge not charging or dealing damage just because the stun couldn't land.

There is a simple solution to this; Rework the spell cast no matter what and deal some base damage, allowing some effect, but keep the reflect as a secondary effect and subject to lockout. Explain somewhere in the game that the spell can be locked out. Here's the spells in a way that reflects what I mean. Note that the parenthesis parts wouldn't actually be in the tooltip. That is unless they could word it better:

Eclipse
Cast Time - Instant
Target - Enemy
Range - 28 Meters
Duration - 5 Seconds

Deals (___) damage to target. (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

Total Dark
New effect: Reduces enemy spell damage

Deals (___) damage to target. Target's spell damage is reduced by (___) for (___) seconds. (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

Unstable Core
New Effect: Deals area damage around target

Deals (___) damage to target and nearby enemies (but include a damned radius! These are lacking on far too many spells). (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

---

So basically, what would happen is, no matter what, you fire the beam and the initial effects land. After that is when the spell reflect is applied or not, depending on the lockout status of the target. No more wasted time trying to cast a seemingly broken spell because it does nothing whatsoever.

This would not only give Templars more choices to increase build variance, but making it a more attractive option could also alleviate a bit of the CC spam other players feel in PVP if not used correctly. Being in a reflect bubble may kill your offensive, but it lets you continue healing / moving, whereas stuns do not, and since the bubble makes you stun immune, Templars using it poorly would actually put you at an advantage.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Lockout timers and not getting a notification on them is true of any cc but root afaik. (at least talons, you can do that endlessly and dodge rolling doesn't even always remove it.)

I think it works fine. Makes you pay attention to when you last cc'd etc.

jrgray93

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Lockout timers and not getting a notification on them is true of any cc but root afaik. (at least talons, you can do that endlessly and dodge rolling doesn't even always remove it.)

I think it works fine. Makes you pay attention to when you last cc'd etc.

Casting these spells will do nothing whatsoever when the timer is in place. It won't even attempt to cast. Nothing happens. It's as if you didn't press a button. This isn't just from your own CC either. It's whenever anyone hits them with anything. That's a terrible gameplay mechanic. I'm not talking about getting notifications for other CC lockouts. I'm talking about a particular spell being designed poorly.

To be more clear; I'm not asking for any notification of when a CC doesn't work. That's fine. It might be useful for the tooltip to tell you it is subject to lockout timers, but that's another discussion still. I'm just talking about this one specific spell and the fact that it won't even attempt to cast if it can't apply the reflect.

Soloeus

jrgray93 wrote: »

I spent a couple of skill points to get Eclipse -> Unstable Core. I thought this spell would be cool in PVP. It could shut down casters and provide a bit of AOE DPS from afar. I thought wrong.

The mechanics behind this spell are very poorly designed. I noted many times I would spam the button and the ability would not cast. No error message, no feedback at all. Just no casting. I went as far as reporting this as a game bug before I figured out what was going on.

It turns out Eclipse and its morphs are subject to CC break lockout timers. This seems perfectly understandable, since it would otherwise cripple casters entirely. What's not understandable is that the spell does absolutely nothing when lockout timers are active. Nowhere in-game does it tell you about lockout timers and how they would apply to this spell. You're left to figure it out on your own. In a game that is notorious for unresponsive combat and a plethora of bugs, it comes as no surprise when a spell doesn't seem to work. It isn't seen as a game mechanic. It's seen as a problem. It feels like a problem. This would be like Shield Charge not charging or dealing damage just because the stun couldn't land.

There is a simple solution to this; Rework the spell cast no matter what and deal some base damage, allowing some effect, but keep the reflect as a secondary effect and subject to lockout. Explain somewhere in the game that the spell can be locked out. Here's the spells in a way that reflects what I mean. Note that the parenthesis parts wouldn't actually be in the tooltip. That is unless they could word it better:

Eclipse
Cast Time - Instant
Target - Enemy
Range - 28 Meters
Duration - 5 Seconds

Deals (___) damage to target. (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

Total Dark
New effect: Reduces enemy spell damage

Deals (___) damage to target. Target's spell damage is reduced by (___) for (___) seconds. (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

Unstable Core
New Effect: Deals area damage around target

Deals (___) damage to target and nearby enemies (but include a damned radius! These are lacking on far too many spells). (if target has not recently been affected by CC) Target reflects negative single target spells back at themselves for (___) seconds.

---

So basically, what would happen is, no matter what, you fire the beam and the initial effects land. After that is when the spell reflect is applied or not, depending on the lockout status of the target. No more wasted time trying to cast a seemingly broken spell because it does nothing whatsoever.

This would not only give Templars more choices to increase build variance, but making it a more attractive option could also alleviate a bit of the CC spam other players feel in PVP if not used correctly. Being in a reflect bubble may kill your offensive, but it lets you continue healing / moving, whereas stuns do not, and since the bubble makes you stun immune, Templars using it poorly would actually put you at an advantage.

It does do one thing, actually 2.

1. It costs you time to cast.
2. Magicka.

Lettigall

Eclipse is good for PvE but it have no place in PvP. It's useful only against very inexperienced players and tower mages. CC break lockout timer is an tombstone for this spell in PvP.

Circuitous

There's a notice when PvE enemies are immune to CC for whatever reason, PvP should have the same.

h1roshim4_ESO

Eclipse is situational. It's actually awesome for killing someone casting soul strike.

guybrushtb16_ESO

h1roshim4_ESO wrote: »

Eclipse is situational. It's actually awesome for killing someone casting soul strike.

Assuming they are stupid enough to not break it. Which might be true for quite a few people using sould strike in the first place now that I think of it.

SoulScream

Tried it, made a DK and use reflective scales instead.

jrgray93

SoulScream wrote: »

Tried it, made a DK and use reflective scales instead.

Hahaha, see, the thing about that spell is that you can just switch targets if there are more around. It doesn't bother me so much. But hey, it casts every time.

timidobserver

It I can't break mark target I shouldn't be able to break eclipse.

dodgehopper_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

It I can't break mark target I shouldn't be able to break eclipse.

timidobserver wrote: »

It I can't break mark target I shouldn't be able to break eclipse.

This is actually a pretty good point.

jrgray93

Being unable to break eclipse would make templars annihilate anyone who has a spell-based offense. I'm okay with Eclipse being breakable. Like I said, it just isn't cool that the spell does nothing whatsoever when it can't be applied.

Zarman

A little off topic but for some reason when i see this topic title i think of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af0BnjMV0Is


On topic, a lot of the templar skills needs reworking, they are great in the first few zones but are not as good in the end zones

ThatHappyCat

I don't see a lot of point to Eclipse in PvP. It doesn't interrupt, stop the target's movement or prevent them from using all skills. If I'm going to make my opponent use their CC breaker I'd rather use a stun that will actually break their flow for a second.

ZOS_SandraF

Greetings, everyone!

We wanted to let you know that we've moved this thread from the "General Discussion - English" forum to the "Combat & Skill Lines - English" forum.

Thank you!

Tankqull

jrgray93 wrote: »

Being unable to break eclipse would make templars annihilate anyone who has a spell-based offense. ...

thats what purge and its morphs are for. its the only(beside cleansing ritual of templars) way to get rid of mark target and it should be the only way to get rid of eclipse.

Pmarsico9

It's an awful spell overall and has no place anywhere since Absorb Magic is 100000% more reliable.

It simply eats an active ability slot in a tree that is terrible (Dawn's Wrath) overall.

It really needs to be replaced with something useful that works with the rest of tree to create a working DPS spec for competitive trials.

Baphomet

Nice to see the devs always popping in to move threads, but not giving any constructive feedack.

On topic, the problem is that eclipse is being treated as a CC when it is obviously supposed to a debuff.

If a character has immovable up, you can't target it either. It is so badly designed and poorly coded.

Ecplise should be a debuff and not breakable. In turn, its duration should be shortened.

jrgray93

I'm still not so sure about that. I think if Eclipse worked like Mark Target, people would be up in arms about it in no time. Most people don't have purge. It's expensive for what it does. Even the efficient morph.

ThatHappyCat

I definitely don't think Eclipse should be uncounterable without a cleanse, but its current implementation makes it inferior to stuns unless your opponent has no stamina to CC break and doesn't currently have CC break/Immovable active. But if that's the case then a good stun would probably seal the deal for you anyway.

jrgray93

I found out about the crappy mechanics because I was using Invasion for stuns and could never follow up with Eclipse.

Pmarsico9

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I definitely don't think Eclipse should be uncounterable without a cleanse, but its current implementation makes it inferior to stuns unless your opponent has no stamina to CC break and doesn't currently have CC break/Immovable active. But if that's the case then a good stun would probably seal the deal for you anyway.

It's too powerful if it works the way it was designed and worthless if it doesn't.

It's a stupid ability overall. Even in PVE, Absorb Magic is soooooo much easier to use and better.

Troponin

I am having issues casting this abilty in PvP as well. It goes off about 50% of the time, making it too unreliable and I just pulled it off my bar completely.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Unstable Core, which is my favourite, works very well on the "heat of the battle". It will never work against a well prepared enemy in 1 vs 1 combat. But it will work when someone is engaged and busy trying to either defend/block or cast spells. (especially Soul Assault). I still remember a Sorcerer who cast two Crystal Fragments while it was on in 1 v 1 battle. Was funny as anything.


But I had it removed from my qbar until the other night suffered a humiliating defeat on the rare occasion of losing a 1 vs 1 by a siphoning caster NB. I put is back in again and it will never leave the qbar. (a similar NB tried to attack me later on and died to it).

Because is not widespread used, along with Turn Undead, is catches many people surprised and that moment is all you need to make them eat dirt.

Could it be better spell? Yes. I would say remove the negative damages etc and make it work like the Sorcerer Ultimate. For the duration the affected member can cast only AoE spells.

Straight away, Templar pure melee build is feasible, while it will not stop someone cast AoE spells.

jrgray93

Proof that this spell was made by Satan.

milan.verploegenb16_ESO

September? o0 How come ZOS is still ignoring this? They could even implement a skill-upgrade item in the crown store so we could maybe pay 20eur for a DLC where this skill doesn't lock ur skillbar...

Joy_Division

As a fellow Templar experiencing the same frustrations as the OP, I also think this spell does not go through blockers. I am not 100% positive about this, but it makes sense if block = CC immunity and CC immunity = can't cast this spell.

It is absolutely terrible design for a game to have *nothing* happen when a player presses a button. Unacceptable.

technohic

milan.verploegenb16_ESO wrote: »

September? o0 How come ZOS is still ignoring this? They could even implement a skill-upgrade item in the crown store so we could maybe pay 20eur for a DLC where this skill doesn't lock ur skillbar...

They actually broke it more.

jopeymonster

milan.verploegenb16_ESO wrote: »

How come ZOS is still ignoring this?

You either are not a Templar, or haven't been one long enough. ZOS ignores everything about Templars. Reference multiple, muti-page thread about everything from this exact topic, to the infamous Charge, to anything in the Resto tree other than BoL and CA/PA.

That fact that the only green responses to there posts are moving them to another thread, should be evidence enough that ZOS is full of fail.

cozmon3c_ESO

yeah lets remove this ability, as a sorc it is one of the most annoying abilities in the game to be constantly put on me, it reflects 95% of the damage i do as a caster back in my face, and if a crystal frag leaves my hands and then eclipse is put on me mid flight, it flies back at me even though its outside the eclipse bubble. this OP skill defenitely needs to be removed, and im so glad Templars agree, lols. if only they knew how awesome this skill really was they would be spamming it on any magicka user they see in cyrodiil. its totally useless, lols.