-- Musings of a Templar --

ThatHappyCat

Having played with a Templar since Beta, here's some of my thoughts about the class.

Aedric Spear wrote:

Puncturing Sweep

Large groups are a joke with massive amounts of self-healing, and even many bosses can be soloed by spamming this. IMO healing return should be reduced: say down from 40% to 20%. Also it should probably have a name change, "Sweep" no longer makes much sense.

Aurora Javelin

Even with the full 40% bonus damage it is still quite weak and magicka inefficient, plus the mediocre range means the bonus damage drops off rapidly. If this is intended to be the DPS morph then it should actually be a viable option for DPS. I'd suggest increasing its range from 20m to 28m and the bonus damage from 40% to say 60%.

Sun Shield

If a boss cannot be soloed with Puncturing Sweeps it can almost certainly be soloed with Blazing Shield. Sun Shield is too cheap magicka-wise now that it doesn't stunt magicka regeneration. I suggest increasing its magicka cost by about 25%.

Radiant Ward

This morph does very little compared to Blazing Shield. Instead of buffing its rather boring effect I'd like to see something different: for example, restoring some stamina whenever the shield takes damage.

Dawn's Wrath wrote:

Vampire's Bane

All this morph does is add 2 seconds to the snare and DoT, compared to Reflective Light which can hit up to three enemies. My suggestion would be to front-load the 2 extra seconds of DoT damage into the initial burst.

Purifying Light

The HoT is not bad but its AoE is miniscule. The radius should be increased by like 3x or even 4x.

Searing Light

A lackluster morph compared to Blinding Flashes. I suggest increasing the chance to miss from 50% to 100%, considering it only applies it once compared to 4 times with the other morph.

Restoring Light wrote:

Ritual of Rebirth

0.3s off a 2s cast time isn't very impressive. Personally I'd make the base cast time reduction 0.2s, increasing by 0.1s per level of the skill: so at level 4 the cast time becomes 1.5s, down from 2s.

Radiant Aura

"Increased radius", really? That's boring and almost useless, especially since the AoE's pretty large already. Should be replaced with an interesting effect, for example increasing magicka regeneration by 50%. If people are worried about it recouping its cost, bear in mind Templars already have precedence with this in Honour the Dead and Channelled Focus.

Shaloran

Backlash is a great skill for healing and DPS templars. Just keep it up when you're doing big bosses in group dungeons and you can substantially increase your groups effectiveness.

Blinding flashes is also good for soloing bosses like you'd mentioned about blazing shield. The two used together is a bit redundant but either skill is amazing for keeping yourself alive. Tank templars might consider using both.

Good post.

timidobserver

I have a hard time believing you play a Templar as a main given your top couple of points seem to indicate that you think the class is doing to much damage. Puncturing strikes does "high damage" in comparison to Templar abilities, but it is nothing in comparison to what other classes have. Templar does not need a damage reduction.

The only thing I can think of the explain it is that you are not V12 yet? Prior to V12, puncturing strikes is awesome. However, it becomes pretty lackluster afterward.

ThatHappyCat

timidobserver wrote: »

I have a hard time believing you play a Templar as a main given your top couple of points seem to indicate that you think the class is doing to much damage. Puncturing strikes does "high damage" in comparison to Templar abilities, but it is nothing in comparison to what other classes have. Templar does not need a damage reduction.

The only thing I can think of the explain it is that you are not V12 yet? Prior to V12, puncturing strikes is awesome. However, it becomes pretty lackluster afterward.

I never insinuated the Templar class as a whole does too much DPS. The only skill where I used the term "high damage" is with Puncturing Strikes. Fact of the matter is, Puncturing Sweep does so many things (single target DPS, AoE DPS, spammable interrupt, and self-healing) most Templars pretty much spam that one skill in PvE, and it's also a prime choice in PvP. It's not the damage alone that makes Puncturing Sweep so good, it's the combination of damage, CC and self-healing.

The fact that you consider a nerf to Puncturing Strikes damage as a damage reduction for Templars as a whole is telling. Too much of a Templar's DPS is based on this one skill, which I think stunts the class as a whole: hence why I also suggested making Aurora Javelin and Vampire's Bane better DPS skills.

Notice that apart from Puncturing Strikes/Sweep and Sun Shield, all of what I suggested are buffs. I'd like to see more viable builds for Templars, especially in PvP (currently almost all Templars use Blazing Shield backed with Puncturing Sweep).

Khivas_Carrick

My votes are:

Balanced Warrior - Increase this big time. 4% isn't anything impressive at all, I'd say 5%/10% would make it better. Also have it apply to spell damage too, that'd make this really worth having and actually fit the name "Balanced Warrior".

Burning Light - 25% Chance? Nah son, 50%/100% chance for when using light and heavy attacks only. If it was on spear abilities, Puncturing Strikes would be waaaaaay too powerful, which by the way I agree with the OP on, as I am a Templar that spams that move when in dire situations, but all in all I try to rotate Vampire's Bane into it too. But with Light and heavy weapon attacks, or at least melee weapon attacks, doing that extra bit of magical damage will go a long way to upping our DPS and making us competitive.

Restoring Spirit - For the love of the Eight, give Templars back their god damn Magicka Restoration stuff. 4% discount on spells is NOTHING guys, not even a drop in the bucket. Make that a 4%/8% Magicka returned for each spell cast, even attach a cooldown if you must, but a flat out discount stunts the everliving *** out of Templars and really rains on our parade. You guys have yet to fix this and it's been 6 months already, come on ZoS, do something of worth and value already!

Illuminate - ehh, kind of meh really, I'd rather have it be that when an enemy is affected by a Dawn's Wrath ability their spell resistance is lowered by 500 instead of the player's suddenly gaining 500, that or maybe make them take 2/4% more damage from all sources, including party and raid members? That'd be a nice party trick.

Prism - More Ultimate please, pretty please even.

For all of Restoring Light's Passives - They're actually pretty ok, HOWEVER one of them should have something that restores magicka spent on healing spells because as it stands now, while Templar heals are pretty strong, we're stuck mostly with utility and strong cast time based heals that burn our magicka too fast if we don't use a resto staff, i.e we're forced to use a stick to keep people alive and that kind of ruins the fun part where we were told we'd get to play effectively as we wanted. Actually I lied, duh....

Master Ritualist - This is handy for PvP and bad PvE situations, but it should do so much more for an end of tree skill. Make this return magicka back to the user based on what spells affect who or something, or perhap when you res a player, gain 50% of your magicka back asap. That might be a bit much, but have you guys tried to res somebody while being shot or slashed at? It isn't fun I tell you.

Vampire's Bane - One of two things, or even both really. One, make this skill hit 50% harder for both the DoT and the Front Damage. Two, when the DoT wears off, players EXPLODE for extra damage. That or make it actually affect Vampires, like it deals 100% more damage to them. I'm not crazy I swear >_>

Solar Flare/Dark Flare - I think I got those names right. Anyway I say make these not mortar based moves and screw off with that cast time crap. But that's just me. Or perhaps make Solar Barrage the same thing that Solar Flare was but instead it's instant cast and has a small AoE based on where it lands? That'd be cool.

Blazing Spear - I used to hate this move because I had to aim it. Truth be told I'm not happily in love with it. Although I wouldn't mind some damage increases to the DoT portion of this, or perhaps enemies within take extra damage from magical sources? Or better yet melee/physical sources? Just a suggestion.

Puncturing Sweep - Still think this move would be better served as being morphed from a series of strikes to one giant hard hitting strike. Something to bolster single target DPS but still heal it's user. I think that would balance this move our slightly, especially if the other changes we think of were ever implemented. Or we can leave it as is and let it be our single best skill as Templars hands down. Even healers use this ***.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

My votes are:

Restoring Spirit - For the love of the Eight, give Templars back their god damn Magicka Restoration stuff. 4% discount on spells is NOTHING guys, not even a drop in the bucket. Make that a 4%/8% Magicka returned for each spell cast, even attach a cooldown if you must, but a flat out discount stunts the everliving *** out of Templars and really rains on our parade. You guys have yet to fix this and it's been 6 months already, come on ZoS, do something of worth and value already!

Not agreed here. Discounts are amazing due to the way they stack. The only argument that could be made here is that it encourages dedicated magicka builds more then a flat return, but I don't see that as much of an issue.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Illuminate - ehh, kind of meh really, I'd rather have it be that when an enemy is affected by a Dawn's Wrath ability their spell resistance is lowered by 500 instead of the player's suddenly gaining 500, that or maybe make them take 2/4% more damage from all sources, including party and raid members? That'd be a nice party trick.

Agreed that it's not very good, but then again, lots of class passives are highly situational and rarely useful. At least with this one, the attacker being affected by any of the dawn's wrath abilities are pretty good usually.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Prism - More Ultimate please, pretty please even.

For all of Restoring Light's Passives - They're actually pretty ok, HOWEVER one of them should have something that restores magicka spent on healing spells because as it stands now, while Templar heals are pretty strong, we're stuck mostly with utility and strong cast time based heals that burn our magicka too fast if we don't use a resto staff, i.e we're forced to use a stick to keep people alive and that kind of ruins the fun part where we were told we'd get to play effectively as we wanted. Actually I lied, duh....

I'd see this from the other side actually. Play the way you want also means that everybody, regardless of class can be at least a decent healer, so templars shouldn't be the only viable healers. What I do see as a major issue though, it that templars really have no viable dps ultimate on their own. This is part of the reason they all went vempire for bat swarm, and it is unresolved still.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Master Ritualist - This is handy for PvP and bad PvE situations, but it should do so much more for an end of tree skill. Make this return magicka back to the user based on what spells affect who or something, or perhap when you res a player, gain 50% of your magicka back asap. That might be a bit much, but have you guys tried to res somebody while being shot or slashed at? It isn't fun I tell you.

This one is more of a junk passive, agreed. Chances are, if somebody dies first in pve, it should be the tank, so this is precisely the time where the healer can't ignore everybody else and start channeling something that is not a heal. Personally, I'd rather see something like "1s channeled res once every 1 hour" instead of the passive 20%, so you get at least a chance of recovering from a downed tank if that was the intention behind it.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Vampire's Bane - One of two things, or even both really. One, make this skill hit 50% harder for both the DoT and the Front Damage. Two, when the DoT wears off, players EXPLODE for extra damage. That or make it actually affect Vampires, like it deals 100% more damage to them. I'm not crazy I swear >_>

It does good damage to vampires purely because it's fire damage already, and it's so cost effective that even stamina builds (the few that exist anyway) run it AFAIK, so I don't have any issues with it.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Blazing Spear - I used to hate this move because I had to aim it. Truth be told I'm not happily in love with it. Although I wouldn't mind some damage increases to the DoT portion of this, or perhaps enemies within take extra damage from magical sources? Or better yet melee/physical sources? Just a suggestion.

It's damage is actually very good and highly efficient for a stationary aoe if you factor in burning light procs from it's dot effect.

Pmarsico9

This must be a veiled QQ thread by somebody who got owned by a Templar in PVP.

Templar can't tank or DPS end game content. Your proposed changes would nerf the only thing they excel at aside from PVP: Soloing.

Until the class can do damage on par with other classes single-target, then there's absolutely nothing that should be changed according to what you wrote, because it appears to be veiled QQ nerf talk from a person who got owned in Cyrodiil by a Shield Spamming/Sweep using Templar.

Pmarsico9

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I have a hard time believing you play a Templar as a main given your top couple of points seem to indicate that you think the class is doing to much damage. Puncturing strikes does "high damage" in comparison to Templar abilities, but it is nothing in comparison to what other classes have. Templar does not need a damage reduction.

The only thing I can think of the explain it is that you are not V12 yet? Prior to V12, puncturing strikes is awesome. However, it becomes pretty lackluster afterward.

I never insinuated the Templar class as a whole does too much DPS. The only skill where I used the term "high damage" is with Puncturing Strikes. Fact of the matter is, Puncturing Sweep does so many things (single target DPS, AoE DPS, spammable interrupt, and self-healing) most Templars pretty much spam that one skill in PvE, and it's also a prime choice in PvP. It's not the damage alone that makes Puncturing Sweep so good, it's the combination of damage, CC and self-healing.

The fact that you consider a nerf to Puncturing Strikes damage as a damage reduction for Templars as a whole is telling. Too much of a Templar's DPS is based on this one skill, which I think stunts the class as a whole: hence why I also suggested making Aurora Javelin and Vampire's Bane better DPS skills.

Notice that apart from Puncturing Strikes/Sweep and Sun Shield, all of what I suggested are buffs. I'd like to see more viable builds for Templars, especially in PvP (currently almost all Templars use Blazing Shield backed with Puncturing Sweep).

Anybody spamming Sweep is in a dire situation and it's not for the damage. It's for the heal. Nerfing the damage would simply make Templars worse at soloing.

Sweep has no place in end-game PVE. Pulsar/Unstable Wall is higher damage for AoE. Vamp's Bane/Dark Flare/Backlash is higher single target, and even then, you can't have more than 1 backlash on a target and even with Backlash the class' DPS sucks.

Without Sweep in its current state, you'd better be ready to nerf the cost of Breath of Life significantly, which would SERIOUSLY mess up PVP.

Templar's are the only real resource-limited class. You have to understand the repercussions of what Blazing Shield or Puncturing Sweep nerfs would do.

If Blazing Shield simply wasn't able to be exploited via "stacking," then there's absolutely nothing wrong with the ability.

It is literally the ONLY reason that Templars can tank VR dungeons at all. And even then, you give up so much due to the lack of reliable AoE CC vs. Sorcs or DK's comparatively that you could argue they aren't viable even with the ease at which they hit hard armor/Spell resist caps, maintain a 15% DR buff (Empowering Sweep,) and a Shield that scales with health. But they can't hold AoE positioning or hate, with Blazing Shield's damage being all the class can contribute really while tanking. And that damage is trash.

Khivas_Carrick

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

My votes are:

Restoring Spirit - For the love of the Eight, give Templars back their god damn Magicka Restoration stuff. 4% discount on spells is NOTHING guys, not even a drop in the bucket. Make that a 4%/8% Magicka returned for each spell cast, even attach a cooldown if you must, but a flat out discount stunts the everliving *** out of Templars and really rains on our parade. You guys have yet to fix this and it's been 6 months already, come on ZoS, do something of worth and value already!

Not agreed here. Discounts are amazing due to the way they stack. The only argument that could be made here is that it encourages dedicated magicka builds more then a flat return, but I don't see that as much of an issue.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Illuminate - ehh, kind of meh really, I'd rather have it be that when an enemy is affected by a Dawn's Wrath ability their spell resistance is lowered by 500 instead of the player's suddenly gaining 500, that or maybe make them take 2/4% more damage from all sources, including party and raid members? That'd be a nice party trick.

Agreed that it's not very good, but then again, lots of class passives are highly situational and rarely useful. At least with this one, the attacker being affected by any of the dawn's wrath abilities are pretty good usually.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Prism - More Ultimate please, pretty please even.

For all of Restoring Light's Passives - They're actually pretty ok, HOWEVER one of them should have something that restores magicka spent on healing spells because as it stands now, while Templar heals are pretty strong, we're stuck mostly with utility and strong cast time based heals that burn our magicka too fast if we don't use a resto staff, i.e we're forced to use a stick to keep people alive and that kind of ruins the fun part where we were told we'd get to play effectively as we wanted. Actually I lied, duh....

I'd see this from the other side actually. Play the way you want also means that everybody, regardless of class can be at least a decent healer, so templars shouldn't be the only viable healers. What I do see as a major issue though, it that templars really have no viable dps ultimate on their own. This is part of the reason they all went vempire for bat swarm, and it is unresolved still.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Master Ritualist - This is handy for PvP and bad PvE situations, but it should do so much more for an end of tree skill. Make this return magicka back to the user based on what spells affect who or something, or perhap when you res a player, gain 50% of your magicka back asap. That might be a bit much, but have you guys tried to res somebody while being shot or slashed at? It isn't fun I tell you.

This one is more of a junk passive, agreed. Chances are, if somebody dies first in pve, it should be the tank, so this is precisely the time where the healer can't ignore everybody else and start channeling something that is not a heal. Personally, I'd rather see something like "1s channeled res once every 1 hour" instead of the passive 20%, so you get at least a chance of recovering from a downed tank if that was the intention behind it.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Vampire's Bane - One of two things, or even both really. One, make this skill hit 50% harder for both the DoT and the Front Damage. Two, when the DoT wears off, players EXPLODE for extra damage. That or make it actually affect Vampires, like it deals 100% more damage to them. I'm not crazy I swear >_>

It does good damage to vampires purely because it's fire damage already, and it's so cost effective that even stamina builds (the few that exist anyway) run it AFAIK, so I don't have any issues with it.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Blazing Spear - I used to hate this move because I had to aim it. Truth be told I'm not happily in love with it. Although I wouldn't mind some damage increases to the DoT portion of this, or perhaps enemies within take extra damage from magical sources? Or better yet melee/physical sources? Just a suggestion.

It's damage is actually very good and highly efficient for a stationary aoe if you factor in burning light procs from it's dot effect.

Every class but our own has access to both discounts and magicka regen/return. Seems unfair, no? This is why I suggested it or in this case a small return on it instead of the giant one it used to be.

I didn't know Blazing Spear could proc burning light, but I'd still want to see a little extra oompf out of it.

Master Ritualist and Illuminate I sort of agree with you but I still think there's a lot of room for improvement on their end (ZoS).

And you may say that about vampires bane, but it's still a little weak for a morphed skill.

Pmarsico9

I just want to go on record:

If the balance tweaks you propose aren't written from the perspective of maximum level (soon to be VR14) then they probably shouldn't be written.

Khivas_Carrick

They are, or rather close to it as I'm VR10. Or was that to the OP? Ima just go back to my corner now

timidobserver

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I have a hard time believing you play a Templar as a main given your top couple of points seem to indicate that you think the class is doing to much damage. Puncturing strikes does "high damage" in comparison to Templar abilities, but it is nothing in comparison to what other classes have. Templar does not need a damage reduction.

The only thing I can think of the explain it is that you are not V12 yet? Prior to V12, puncturing strikes is awesome. However, it becomes pretty lackluster afterward.

I never insinuated the Templar class as a whole does too much DPS. The only skill where I used the term "high damage" is with Puncturing Strikes. Fact of the matter is, Puncturing Sweep does so many things (single target DPS, AoE DPS, spammable interrupt, and self-healing) most Templars pretty much spam that one skill in PvE, and it's also a prime choice in PvP. It's not the damage alone that makes Puncturing Sweep so good, it's the combination of damage, CC and self-healing.

The fact that you consider a nerf to Puncturing Strikes damage as a damage reduction for Templars as a whole is telling. Too much of a Templar's DPS is based on this one skill, which I think stunts the class as a whole: hence why I also suggested making Aurora Javelin and Vampire's Bane better DPS skills.

Notice that apart from Puncturing Strikes/Sweep and Sun Shield, all of what I suggested are buffs. I'd like to see more viable builds for Templars, especially in PvP (currently almost all Templars use Blazing Shield backed with Puncturing Sweep).

Any reduction in damage is a reduction in damage as a whole, and Templar does not need any damage reduction other than the 1 in a 1000 super blazing shield crit. Your perspective seems to be that of a level 40 who hasn't figured out anything else to do other than spam puncturing strikes or someone that plays another class as a main and a Templar as an alt.

At V12 the one and only impressive thing about Puncturing Strikes is using it as a stun lock in PVP and that has been fixed recently.

-If you spam the version that heals you, you are going to die if you use it while tanking end game content because you can't block while channeling.
-If you spam the version that increases your crit when attacking enemies with low health, you are going to do mediocre damage compared to other classes if you use it in endgame content.
-If you use it as AoE DPS, you are going to do mediocre aoe dps compared to other classes.
-If you use it as an interrupt you are going to fail because of the channel. Bashing is much more effective.

ThatHappyCat

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Purifying Light is very good for removing buffs on yourself when roaming solo. Generally speaking about the base ability, the area is not that small and everyone standing in it benefits from the Focused Healing passive.

You seem to ignore or forget that Radiant Aura also increases stamina regen by 80% when you activate it.

You're thinking of Cleansing Ritual. Purifying Light is a morph of Backlash.

Radiant Aura is a morph of Restoring Aura. What you're talking about is the base effect of Restoring Aura.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Anybody spamming Sweep is in a dire situation and it's not for the damage. It's for the heal. Nerfing the damage would simply make Templars worse at soloing.

Sweep has no place in end-game PVE. Pulsar/Unstable Wall is higher damage for AoE. Vamp's Bane/Dark Flare/Backlash is higher single target, and even then, you can't have more than 1 backlash on a target and even with Backlash the class' DPS sucks.

Without Sweep in its current state, you'd better be ready to nerf the cost of Breath of Life significantly, which would SERIOUSLY mess up PVP.

Templar's are the only real resource-limited class. You have to understand the repercussions of what Blazing Shield or Puncturing Sweep nerfs would do.

If Blazing Shield simply wasn't able to be exploited via "stacking," then there's absolutely nothing wrong with the ability.

It is literally the ONLY reason that Templars can tank VR dungeons at all. And even then, you give up so much due to the lack of reliable AoE CC vs. Sorcs or DK's comparatively that you could argue they aren't viable even with the ease at which they hit hard armor/Spell resist caps, maintain a 15% DR buff (Empowering Sweep,) and a Shield that scales with health. But they can't hold AoE positioning or hate, with Blazing Shield's damage being all the class can contribute really while tanking. And that damage is trash.

Vampire's Bane is magicka-inefficient and doesn't do half the things Sweep does, and Dark Flare doesn't have more DPS than Sweep factoring in its cast time and Sweep's ability to proc Burning Light. Backlash like you said isn't spammable and in any case can fit into almost any build.

Again I should point out that I'm not saying Sweep does too much damage, I'm saying the combination of single target damage, AoE damage, interrupt and self-healing is too much. I admit however that on second thoughts nerfing the base skill's damage by 25% is too much when the main beef I have with the skill is Sweep's ridiculous self-healing versus multiple mobs.

If you're worried about self-healing and magicka efficiency then get Honour the Dead instead of Breath of Life. Since you're tanking/DPSing you aren't the main healer anyway. Channelled Focus is also an okay skill for magicka management, even if you don't stand in its tiny tiny area it still gives the equivalent of 40 magicka regeneration not subject to soft capping.



PS: I put the two nerfs first to deter people saying all my suggestions are buffs. Seems like it has the opposite effect from other Templar players who see nerfs and become blind to everything else.

GwaynLoki

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Purifying Light is very good for removing buffs on yourself when roaming solo. Generally speaking about the base ability, the area is not that small and everyone standing in it benefits from the Focused Healing passive.

You seem to ignore or forget that Radiant Aura also increases stamina regen by 80% when you activate it.

You're thinking of Cleansing Ritual. Purifying Light is a morph of Backlash.

Actually I was thinking of Purifying Ritual. But thanks for noticing. Fixed.

Tankqull

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I have a hard time believing you play a Templar as a main given your top couple of points seem to indicate that you think the class is doing to much damage. Puncturing strikes does "high damage" in comparison to Templar abilities, but it is nothing in comparison to what other classes have. Templar does not need a damage reduction.

The only thing I can think of the explain it is that you are not V12 yet? Prior to V12, puncturing strikes is awesome. However, it becomes pretty lackluster afterward.

I never insinuated the Templar class as a whole does too much DPS. The only skill where I used the term "high damage" is with Puncturing Strikes. Fact of the matter is, Puncturing Sweep does so many things (single target DPS, AoE DPS, spammable interrupt, and self-healing) most Templars pretty much spam that one skill in PvE, and it's also a prime choice in PvP. It's not the damage alone that makes Puncturing Sweep so good, it's the combination of damage, CC and self-healing.

The fact that you consider a nerf to Puncturing Strikes damage as a damage reduction for Templars as a whole is telling. Too much of a Templar's DPS is based on this one skill, which I think stunts the class as a whole: hence why I also suggested making Aurora Javelin and Vampire's Bane better DPS skills.

Notice that apart from Puncturing Strikes/Sweep and Sun Shield, all of what I suggested are buffs. I'd like to see more viable builds for Templars, especially in PvP (currently almost all Templars use Blazing Shield backed with Puncturing Sweep).

maye because there is no option?
in pve you are allways facing multiple targets (from lvl 40 onwards) thus ae attacks are preferred, second point is it is the only melee attack templars have - you dont have anything else to use. other abilitys as you have already recognized on your own are so horrible in ther dmg/magica ratio that you by yourself suggested a dmg increasement...
without options you use the best you have and that is puncturing strikes (wich no other class would even use as their primary action as they have far better options )
and i do agree its heal effct needs to be lowered but not by reducing its heal value from 40 to 20% but by restricting the dmg for the heal calculation to the primary target (dmg done to secondary targets will not used for calculation).

Kcttocs

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I admit however that on second thoughts nerfing the base skill's damage by 25% is too much when the main beef I have with the skill is Sweep's ridiculous self-healing versus multiple mobs.

If you could block and spam this, then I might agree. Too many times I have been thrown in the air while fighting multiple mobs. Getting immovable solves that problem, but then that takes up a slot. Make sure you play an imperial with the passive red diamond for the really ridiculous healing

Pmarsico9

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

GwaynLoki wrote: »

Purifying Light is very good for removing buffs on yourself when roaming solo. Generally speaking about the base ability, the area is not that small and everyone standing in it benefits from the Focused Healing passive.

You seem to ignore or forget that Radiant Aura also increases stamina regen by 80% when you activate it.

You're thinking of Cleansing Ritual. Purifying Light is a morph of Backlash.

Radiant Aura is a morph of Restoring Aura. What you're talking about is the base effect of Restoring Aura.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Anybody spamming Sweep is in a dire situation and it's not for the damage. It's for the heal. Nerfing the damage would simply make Templars worse at soloing.

Sweep has no place in end-game PVE. Pulsar/Unstable Wall is higher damage for AoE. Vamp's Bane/Dark Flare/Backlash is higher single target, and even then, you can't have more than 1 backlash on a target and even with Backlash the class' DPS sucks.

Without Sweep in its current state, you'd better be ready to nerf the cost of Breath of Life significantly, which would SERIOUSLY mess up PVP.

Templar's are the only real resource-limited class. You have to understand the repercussions of what Blazing Shield or Puncturing Sweep nerfs would do.

If Blazing Shield simply wasn't able to be exploited via "stacking," then there's absolutely nothing wrong with the ability.

It is literally the ONLY reason that Templars can tank VR dungeons at all. And even then, you give up so much due to the lack of reliable AoE CC vs. Sorcs or DK's comparatively that you could argue they aren't viable even with the ease at which they hit hard armor/Spell resist caps, maintain a 15% DR buff (Empowering Sweep,) and a Shield that scales with health. But they can't hold AoE positioning or hate, with Blazing Shield's damage being all the class can contribute really while tanking. And that damage is trash.

Vampire's Bane is magicka-inefficient and doesn't do half the things Sweep does, and Dark Flare doesn't have more DPS than Sweep factoring in its cast time and Sweep's ability to proc Burning Light. Backlash like you said isn't spammable and in any case can fit into almost any build.

Again I should point out that I'm not saying Sweep does too much damage, I'm saying the combination of single target damage, AoE damage, interrupt and self-healing is too much. I admit however that on second thoughts nerfing the base skill's damage by 25% is too much when the main beef I have with the skill is Sweep's ridiculous self-healing versus multiple mobs.

If you're worried about self-healing and magicka efficiency then get Honour the Dead instead of Breath of Life. Since you're tanking/DPSing you aren't the main healer anyway. Channelled Focus is also an okay skill for magicka management, even if you don't stand in its tiny tiny area it still gives the equivalent of 40 magicka regeneration not subject to soft capping.



PS: I put the two nerfs first to deter people saying all my suggestions are buffs. Seems like it has the opposite effect from other Templar players who see nerfs and become blind to everything else.

Puncturing Sweeps is basically melee. So no. You don't get it:

The game caters to ranged casters wearing light armor and wielding a staff. Vampire's bane scales best off Dark Flare's buff, and does the most DPCT on a SINGLE target of all Templar abilities. It also plays incredibly with Backlash.

If Puncturing Strikes scaled off Weapon Damage, you'd have a leg to stand on, because of how Backlash works. But once again, you are asking for nerfs because soloing with a Templar is very effective simply spamming Puncturing Strikes.

You still never answered the question of what level your Templar is.

ThatHappyCat

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Puncturing Sweeps is basically melee. So no. You don't get it:

The game caters to ranged casters wearing light armor and wielding a staff. Vampire's bane scales best off Dark Flare's buff, and does the most DPCT on a SINGLE target of all Templar abilities. It also plays incredibly with Backlash.

If Puncturing Strikes scaled off Weapon Damage, you'd have a leg to stand on, because of how Backlash works. But once again, you are asking for nerfs because soloing with a Templar is very effective simply spamming Puncturing Strikes.

You still never answered the question of what level your Templar is.

Vampire's Bane is less than half as magicka-efficient as Puncturing Sweep, i.e. for the same amount of magicka Puncturing Sweep can do more than twice the damage of Vampire's Bane to a single target. You mentioned the magicka problems of a Templar.

Should also point out that the DPS of Vampire's Bane + DoT is roughly on-par with the DPS of Puncturing Sweep + Burning Light. You can check the numbers.

If you are alternating Dark Flare with Vampire's Bane, factoring in the bonus Dark Flare gives to Vampire's Bane; Puncturing Sweep still deals 40% more DPS than Dark Flare. It's certainly much more magicka-efficient but the DPS isn't higher than spamming Vampire's Bane.

Backlash, as we established, augments any kind of DPS.



Anyways. My perspective is mostly from that of a solo PvEer, PvPer and group healer; so admittedly I don't have much insight into group DPSing or Tanking with Templars. As for my level, I've played my Templar to VR10; which isn't VR12 but I have seen most content.

I have taken your thoughts on board and reversed my stance on Puncturing Strikes' damage, but I maintain that self-healing from Puncturing Sweep is too much.

What do you think of my other ideas?

Pmarsico9

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Puncturing Sweeps is basically melee. So no. You don't get it:

The game caters to ranged casters wearing light armor and wielding a staff. Vampire's bane scales best off Dark Flare's buff, and does the most DPCT on a SINGLE target of all Templar abilities. It also plays incredibly with Backlash.

If Puncturing Strikes scaled off Weapon Damage, you'd have a leg to stand on, because of how Backlash works. But once again, you are asking for nerfs because soloing with a Templar is very effective simply spamming Puncturing Strikes.

You still never answered the question of what level your Templar is.

Vampire's Bane is less than half as magicka-efficient as Puncturing Sweep, i.e. for the same amount of magicka Puncturing Sweep can do more than twice the damage of Vampire's Bane to a single target. You mentioned the magicka problems of a Templar.

Should also point out that the DPS of Vampire's Bane + DoT is roughly on-par with the DPS of Puncturing Sweep + Burning Light. You can check the numbers.

If you are alternating Dark Flare with Vampire's Bane, factoring in the bonus Dark Flare gives to Vampire's Bane; Puncturing Sweep still deals 40% more DPS than Dark Flare. It's certainly much more magicka-efficient but the DPS isn't higher than spamming Vampire's Bane.

Backlash, as we established, augments any kind of DPS.



Anyways. My perspective is mostly from that of a solo PvEer, PvPer and group healer; so admittedly I don't have much insight into group DPSing or Tanking with Templars. As for my level, I've played my Templar to VR10; which isn't VR12 but I have seen most content.

I have taken your thoughts on board and reversed my stance on Puncturing Strikes' damage, but I maintain that self-healing from Puncturing Sweep is too much.

What do you think of my other ideas?

What other idea? You don't seem to understand:

Puncturing Sweeps Heal is necessary due to Magicka issues of essentially all Templar Abilities.

Soloing has nothing to do with end-game Templar PVE DPS viability. Vamp's bane has to be used because this game is so melee unfriendly. Go watch some 11 minute trial runs on youtube. There's one Templar healing. That's it. There's a DK tank and everybody else is one of the three other classes.

Vamp's Bane is viable in end game right now because it's ranged and scales off spell crit. Hence, since the game REQUIRES cloth for DPS, Puncturing strikes (and its morphs) don't work because they only scale off your spell damage and magicka, not your spell crit (and especially inner light.)

You do not alternate Vamp's Bane with Dark Flare because you weave heavy attacks in during backlash windows with your resto staff or destro staff to take advantage of the Power of Light's buff. Vamp's Bane is there primarily as a DoT.

I don't view your ideas that involve nerfing a broken class as anything at all. You take away the heal or Blazing Shield's damage yet you don't understand that both prop up things that the class is good at.

If you run through this game completely, you find out at the end that if you want to see end game, you can't unless you heal. You can't tank and you can't DPS in any competitive end-game PVE. Because of mathematical shortcomings.

Templars are the only class with this issue. Every other class has access to every other aspect of the game.

I wrote a novel on how to fix this and make the class work, since there's no flow to the DPS rotation as it is now. When you address the class' complete lack of ability to participate in a portion of the game, then you can start talking about perceived overpoweredness and so forth.

As an aside, other than healing, every other Templar ability is completely worthless in solo PVE grinding BUT Puncturing Sweep.

Additionally, when you have 5 buttons to use and you endlessly spam one, that's not really that bad.

Teloran

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Puncturing Sweeps is basically melee. So no. You don't get it:

The game caters to ranged casters wearing light armor and wielding a staff. Vampire's bane scales best off Dark Flare's buff, and does the most DPCT on a SINGLE target of all Templar abilities. It also plays incredibly with Backlash.

If Puncturing Strikes scaled off Weapon Damage, you'd have a leg to stand on, because of how Backlash works. But once again, you are asking for nerfs because soloing with a Templar is very effective simply spamming Puncturing Strikes.

You still never answered the question of what level your Templar is.

Vampire's Bane is less than half as magicka-efficient as Puncturing Sweep, i.e. for the same amount of magicka Puncturing Sweep can do more than twice the damage of Vampire's Bane to a single target. You mentioned the magicka problems of a Templar.

Should also point out that the DPS of Vampire's Bane + DoT is roughly on-par with the DPS of Puncturing Sweep + Burning Light. You can check the numbers.

If you are alternating Dark Flare with Vampire's Bane, factoring in the bonus Dark Flare gives to Vampire's Bane; Puncturing Sweep still deals 40% more DPS than Dark Flare. It's certainly much more magicka-efficient but the DPS isn't higher than spamming Vampire's Bane.

Backlash, as we established, augments any kind of DPS.



Anyways. My perspective is mostly from that of a solo PvEer, PvPer and group healer; so admittedly I don't have much insight into group DPSing or Tanking with Templars. As for my level, I've played my Templar to VR10; which isn't VR12 but I have seen most content.

I have taken your thoughts on board and reversed my stance on Puncturing Strikes' damage, but I maintain that self-healing from Puncturing Sweep is too much.

What do you think of my other ideas?

Firstly, allies spells eat the spell power buff from the Flare spells so you won't see them yourself. Even then they only boost the first hit of Puncturing Jabs morphs.

If it worked the way you though (and the way it sounds like it should) then Templars would probably be in a better place.

Khivas_Carrick

I think at this point in time it's a known fact that Templar's need buffs rather than any kind of nerf, even if the OP is right that we have one super move that does it all

cazlonb16_ESO

OP severely underestimates the scope of the rework necessary to be less reliant on Puncturing Sweep ( solo/PvP ) and Blazing Shield ( every aspect of the game ) without breaking the class completely.

Some minor adjustments here and there will not remotely be enough.

Nidwin

Just saying,

But Templars that only rely on Puncturing Sweep V5-V10 zones have one thing in common. They die a lot and are unable to solo properly all the stuff that's supposed to be solo.

Just saying of course.

Tankqull

Nidwin wrote: »

Just saying,

But Templars that only rely on Puncturing Sweep V5-V10 zones have one thing in common. They die a lot and are unable to solo properly all the stuff that's supposed to be solo.

Just saying of course.

ähm nope...
i´m thx to a quest bug soloing v10 dolmens with using PS 90% of the time the other 10% are skills to enhence its pve effectivity.
and every boss not having a one-shot ability is absolutly no problem.

Pmarsico9

Nidwin wrote: »

Just saying,

But Templars that only rely on Puncturing Sweep V5-V10 zones have one thing in common. They die a lot and are unable to solo properly all the stuff that's supposed to be solo.

Just saying of course.

Templars who level other ways are making things more complicated for the hell of it.

Khivas_Carrick

Not going to officially join that argument, but I will share my primary rotation, an pray I don't get flamed? Yea let's go with that:

Vampire's Bane

Puncturing Sweeps

Executioner

Stampede

Blazing Spear

This is when I use my 2H, which is my main stay regardless of whatever happens. I refuse to be full on mage, just isn't me. Ironically however as I would've loved to keep my bow as my ranged option, a rare destro staff dropped for me and I went "Oh what the hell". My second bar is still my emergency support bar though, as it's lined usually with Unstable Wall of Elements, Vampire's Bane, then whatever healing spells are needed, usually Lingering Ritual and Cleansing Ritual, etc.

So I'm weird and unoptimized, so sue me.

spinedoc

Nidwin wrote: »

Just saying,

But Templars that only rely on Puncturing Sweep V5-V10 zones have one thing in common. They die a lot and are unable to solo properly all the stuff that's supposed to be solo.

Just saying of course.

Speak for yourself. I don't think I've died more than 3 or 4 times the ENTIRE time I VR leveled, and that was due to not paying attention to adds or from world bosses. I rely primarily on puncturing seeps, only because there really isn't much else and I find the VR levels a terribly boring grind I'd rather get through. Sometimes I wonder if the game is too easy, but then I realize I have to kill 10,928,838,381 more mobs to get a new level and realize it's not so much quality killing as quantity killing.

tplink3r1

Nidwin wrote: »

Just saying,

But Templars that only rely on Puncturing Sweep V5-V10 zones have one thing in common. They die a lot and are unable to solo properly all the stuff that's supposed to be solo.

Just saying of course.

no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqxFqCidqxw&list=UUPG7lzVgmcQ18AknTXYdk-A

Kcttocs

Sad thing is I've shelved my VR12 Templar, Been leveling a Sorc now... and like the video above, that is how we Templars solo pretty much most things, although I would have done it slightly differently, but the main kill is the same, Puncturing Sweep. When and if they change things up I might bring her out of retirement. She is still fun to play, but I am not totally sold on PvP yet even though she is formidable just don't really enjoy running in a zerg all the time and the trials I obviously cannot get into, so am stuck with what to do now.

Pmarsico9

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Puncturing Sweeps


So I'm weird and unoptimized, so sue me.

No you aren't. You just waste magicka on certain things.

Katinas

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Having played with a Templar since Beta, here's some of my thoughts about the class.
Radiant Aura
"Increased radius", really? That's boring and almost useless, especially since the AoE's pretty large already. Should be replaced with an interesting effect, for example increasing magicka regeneration by 50%. If people are worried about it recouping its cost, bear in mind Templars already have precedence with this in Honour the Dead and Channelled Focus.

You've played Templar since Beta and you morph into Radiant Aura?
Repentance is one of the best abilities in the game.