Balancing Magicka/Stamina builds

Shaloran

I was thinking while playing my mellee character about how much more underwhelming it is when compared to my Altmer mage.
One of the biggest problems is the fact that Stamina users are more limited on their ability because the resource that fuels their abilities is also the valuable resource used for blocking, dodging, and breaking CC which completely reduces the amount of DPS these characters are capable of.

My solution? It may be completely stupid or flawed but I'll let you guys work that out. Why not have characters wearing 5 or more pieces of light armor use Magicka a their resource for blocking, dodging, and CC break and change the cosmetics/animation to "flashes", "magic shields", etc.?
This would not only place both builds on the same playing field, but it also forces magicka users to make an important decision about their character. It would also helpto make mages feel more like mages.

Just a thought. Please discuss and let me know your opinions

Ghenra

I can't understand how SO don't fixed it yet, is annoying to see all the people with light armor and staf spaming the same habilities and running together on zergs killing the other faction players with AoE.

Shaloran

Yeah it definitely needs addressed. This fix would limit the number of spells they could cast as well as give mages a choice on light armor or not.

Krinaman

Simple solution. Make all skills bases off of magicka, leave stamina for block/run/etc. Done. problem solved.

Before the "OMFG you don't use magicka to swing a sword" post. Yeah, yeah, call it something else that makes sense for both. Will, Power, whatever.

Shizashane

It would make sense for a toggled ability that you use when your stamina is gone or low that begins to use magicka for stamina functions but with like a 2-3% increased cost to make it fair. But what do I know I just Play here :P

Galrukh

The disparity between magicka/stamina and the utter uselesness of anything other staves in organised PvP is the reason why I cancelled my subscription today (no you can't have my stuff, who knows they might fix it in a year or three).
The game devs are simply too slow to fix problems in this game and the "fixes" they implemented for stamina weapons this patch is just a big F.U. to players who want to play that style.

Im sorry ZoS, you have your chance and you blew it, I'm not paying to play eldermagesonline.

ZoM_Head

I love stamina builds, from rouges to beserkers, to barbarians to full out brutes.

Sadly, i have one VR8 brute who is not going to move ahead, and a level 18 rouge also not going to move ahead (they seriously lack the AOE ZOS throws at you in dungeons).

Shame.....

Macoda

I agree with this completely, Shaloran. In fact, I was wanting for my forum account to get created (just got it today) to make a post with things I think they should introduce for balancing. This was one of the items. It would use the higher resource pool for sneaking, blocking and dodging. To me, that makes a lot of sense.

Khivas_Carrick

How I want to see it:

Magicka = Strong AoE, Heals, Weak/Lack of Single Target DPS and varied CC

Stamina = Weak/Lack of AoE, Freakishly Strong Single Target DPS, and varied CC

How it currently is:

Magicka = Strong AoE, Heals, Strong Single Target DPS, Strong and varied CC

Stamina = Weak AoE, Mediocre at best Single Target DPS, little to no CC.

Thus the world we live in.

Domander

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

How I want to see it:

Magicka = Strong AoE, Heals, Weak/Lack of Single Target DPS and varied CC

Stamina = Weak/Lack of AoE, Freakishly Strong Single Target DPS, and varied CC

How it currently is:

Magicka = Strong AoE, Heals, Strong Single Target DPS, Strong and varied CC

Stamina = Weak AoE, Mediocre at best Single Target DPS, little to no CC.

Thus the world we live in.

Stamina has little to no cc? are you kidding?

2h - uppercut (stun/knockback), crit charge morph (root).
1h+shield - shield charge (stun) power bash (stun and disorient), defensive posture morph (stun) low slash (snare/root)
dw - sparks (blind) hidden blade (snare)
bow - scatter shot (knockback) arrow spray morph (root)

there's actually a couple more but this should get the point across.

Khivas_Carrick

Comparing singular weapon skills to the plethora of magic skills, yea it's very little. Each weapon has a cc move or a morph of one, but more often than not a magicka counterpart does either similar, better, or both.

Your point still made it across though, stamina isn't entirely bad off, but it's CC's need love, especially uppercut and.....actually that's it

Domander

You can also still use magicka skills.

I want to comment on the idea of using magicka or stamina for block/dodge/break free.

I think that's a great idea. I could see someone using a magical shield or a small short teleport (fade out and in) instead of a dodge or using pure will to break free.

Let players customize this choice.

Rune_Relic

Yep you could do that. Would help.

IMHO though....
1. Spells scale off magicka.
2. Weapons scale off health.
3. Crit and reflex scale off of Stamina
4. Range and area scale off of stamina
5. Stealth scales off of stamina.
6. Everyone uses stamina as the dynamic resource.
7. Death = Health + Magicka.

That way...
Fighters focus in health (hit/weapon resist hard but no very often - limited range/area)
Assassin/Thief focus in stamina (weapon/spell hit/resist light...but crit/reflex with good endurance and range/area....low life expectancy)
Mages focus in magicka (hit/spell resist hard but not very often - limited range/area)

Most wouldn't focus all their resources in one, many would focus in two some would focus in all 3.

What would you sacrifice to give you an advantage ?
Would you sacrifice touch/aoe/range damage for range/area
Would you sacrifice spell/weapon resist for stealth and reflex saves ?
Would you sacrifice a few heavy hits for many small ones + crit probability ?
Would you sacrifice combat survivability for the benefits of stamina [glass cannon]?
Would you sacrifice spell damage/resist for weapon damage/resist ?

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

I'm actually feeling pretty good about where my stamina build is at. I push 900 DPS @ VR6 with duelwield and 2h (2h after the 30% health mark - DW before) This will only improve. My AOE damage is silly levels of good pushing 3.5k dps at the aoe cap. I can push 750 DPS with a bow currently and am working on ways to try and improve that.

On the point of crowd control - I don't get it - no cc ability in this game actually does good enough damage to care whether it's a stamina ability or not. I have incapacitating strike which only costs 50 ultimate, everyone has access to volcanic rune which I guess is okay if you don't know how else to deal with large numbers of enemies without ccing them for days. Aspect of terror and it's morphs do literally 0 damage so I don't understand how that could possibly be affected by whether you're a stamina or magicka build. Burning talons does very, VERY little damage as does the sorc AOE stun.

Honestly I couldn't name one CC ability in the game that would provide even a basic semblance of competitive dps if spammed. This means that you could be happy slotting it as a stamina or magicka build REGARDLESS of the resource it uses. Unless you know, you're a scrub who has to spam a cc ability to PVE without dieing.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yep you could do that. Would help.

IMHO though....
1. Spells scale off magicka.
2. Weapons scale off health.
3. Crit and reflex scale off of Stamina
4. Range and area scale off of stamina
5. Stealth scales off of stamina.
6. Everyone uses stamina as the dynamic resource.
7. Death = Health + Magicka.

That way...
Fighters focus in health (hit/weapon resist hard but no very often - limited range/area)
Assassin/Thief focus in stamina (weapon/spell hit/resist light...but crit/reflex with good endurance and range/area....low life expectancy)
Mages focus in magicka (hit/spell resist hard but not very often - limited range/area)

Most wouldn't focus all their resources in one, many would focus in two some would focus in all 3.

What would you sacrifice to give you an advantage ?
Would you sacrifice touch/aoe/range damage for range/area
Would you sacrifice spell/weapon resist for stealth and reflex saves ?
Would you sacrifice a few heavy hits for many small ones + crit probability ?
Would you sacrifice combat survivability for the benefits of stamina [glass cannon]?
Would you sacrifice spell damage/resist for weapon damage/resist ?

Save a system like this for another game - you know so to avoid so radically changing this one that it - not even 1 year down the track - wouldn't be considered a whole other game.

Rune_Relic

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yep you could do that. Would help.

IMHO though....
1. Spells scale off magicka.
2. Weapons scale off health.
3. Crit and reflex scale off of Stamina
4. Range and area scale off of stamina
5. Stealth scales off of stamina.
6. Everyone uses stamina as the dynamic resource.
7. Death = Health + Magicka.

That way...
Fighters focus in health (hit/weapon resist hard but no very often - limited range/area)
Assassin/Thief focus in stamina (weapon/spell hit/resist light...but crit/reflex with good endurance and range/area....low life expectancy)
Mages focus in magicka (hit/spell resist hard but not very often - limited range/area)

Most wouldn't focus all their resources in one, many would focus in two some would focus in all 3.

What would you sacrifice to give you an advantage ?
Would you sacrifice touch/aoe/range damage for range/area
Would you sacrifice spell/weapon resist for stealth and reflex saves ?
Would you sacrifice a few heavy hits for many small ones + crit probability ?
Would you sacrifice combat survivability for the benefits of stamina [glass cannon]?
Would you sacrifice spell damage/resist for weapon damage/resist ?

Save a system like this for another game - you know so to avoid so radically changing this one that it - not even 1 year down the track - wouldn't be considered a whole other game.

Well... do you want it balanced.. or do you just want the never ending attempts at balance every week that never works ?

It was never designed as a balanced system from the outset.
Until they fix that....any half hearted attempt will just cause just as many more issues then it solves.

But yes if a half arsed bodge that sort of works is acceptable to everyone. Then so be it. Your game too. Lets not make the mistake that its being fixed though. Its merely adjustments to appease those who complain the most.

None of this is a completely new system. This is just rationalising what is already there and applying some logic. If this is required to FIX the balance then so be it. They completely rebuilt craft, are changing provisioning, will add the justice system.

Completely reworking stuff to make it work is not alien to ESO. This just plays with which numbers to use when, rather than a ground up rewrite.

But yes it would/could hit like a hammer. Some would say that its needed. If there is any PVP players left to comment by that time.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yep you could do that. Would help.

IMHO though....
1. Spells scale off magicka.
2. Weapons scale off health.
3. Crit and reflex scale off of Stamina
4. Range and area scale off of stamina
5. Stealth scales off of stamina.
6. Everyone uses stamina as the dynamic resource.
7. Death = Health + Magicka.

That way...
Fighters focus in health (hit/weapon resist hard but no very often - limited range/area)
Assassin/Thief focus in stamina (weapon/spell hit/resist light...but crit/reflex with good endurance and range/area....low life expectancy)
Mages focus in magicka (hit/spell resist hard but not very often - limited range/area)

Most wouldn't focus all their resources in one, many would focus in two some would focus in all 3.

What would you sacrifice to give you an advantage ?
Would you sacrifice touch/aoe/range damage for range/area
Would you sacrifice spell/weapon resist for stealth and reflex saves ?
Would you sacrifice a few heavy hits for many small ones + crit probability ?
Would you sacrifice combat survivability for the benefits of stamina [glass cannon]?
Would you sacrifice spell damage/resist for weapon damage/resist ?

Save a system like this for another game - you know so to avoid so radically changing this one that it - not even 1 year down the track - wouldn't be considered a whole other game.

Well... do you want it balanced.. or do you just want the never ending attempts at balance every week that never works ?

It was never designed as a balanced system from the outset.
Until they fix that....any half hearted attempt will just cause just as many more issues then it solves.

But yes if a half arsed bodge that sort of works is acceptable to everyone. Then so be it. Your game too. Lets not make the mistake that its being fixed though. Its merely adjustments to appease those who complain the most.

None of this is a completely new system. This is just rationalising what is already there and applying some logic. If this is required to FIX the balance then so be it. They completely rebuilt craft, are changing provisioning, will add the justice system.

Completely reworking stuff to make it work is not alien to ESO. This just plays with which numbers to use when, rather than a ground up rewrite.

But yes it would/could hit like a hammer. Some would say that its needed. If there is any PVP players left to comment by that time.

This game has the potential to be balance the way it already is - and by George whether you believe it or not it's damned close to it! People use bathrobe broom stick at the moment because the min-maxers said that was strongest... 3 months ago. Right now I'm finding many good ways of dealing damage regardless of class - Any class can heal really well - not just templars and every class can tank! Zenimax has done a FANTASTIC job of tweeking numbers to allow the weaker builds of a few months ago share the spotlight.

Just give the community a month or two to catch up with the fact that you can now push well over 1k DPS with duelwield+2h you CAN heal as a DK / NB. Once the community starts seeing more and more success with the other option to what is common place now, you'll see the diversity late-game that you'd expect from a balanced game.

Khivas_Carrick

But......I don't wanna use DW and a 2H, I just want my 2H for melee and bow when I'm forced to step back lol and spells too XD

Rune_Relic

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yep you could do that. Would help.

IMHO though....
1. Spells scale off magicka.
2. Weapons scale off health.
3. Crit and reflex scale off of Stamina
4. Range and area scale off of stamina
5. Stealth scales off of stamina.
6. Everyone uses stamina as the dynamic resource.
7. Death = Health + Magicka.

That way...
Fighters focus in health (hit/weapon resist hard but no very often - limited range/area)
Assassin/Thief focus in stamina (weapon/spell hit/resist light...but crit/reflex with good endurance and range/area....low life expectancy)
Mages focus in magicka (hit/spell resist hard but not very often - limited range/area)

Most wouldn't focus all their resources in one, many would focus in two some would focus in all 3.

What would you sacrifice to give you an advantage ?
Would you sacrifice touch/aoe/range damage for range/area
Would you sacrifice spell/weapon resist for stealth and reflex saves ?
Would you sacrifice a few heavy hits for many small ones + crit probability ?
Would you sacrifice combat survivability for the benefits of stamina [glass cannon]?
Would you sacrifice spell damage/resist for weapon damage/resist ?

Save a system like this for another game - you know so to avoid so radically changing this one that it - not even 1 year down the track - wouldn't be considered a whole other game.

Well... do you want it balanced.. or do you just want the never ending attempts at balance every week that never works ?

It was never designed as a balanced system from the outset.
Until they fix that....any half hearted attempt will just cause just as many more issues then it solves.

But yes if a half arsed bodge that sort of works is acceptable to everyone. Then so be it. Your game too. Lets not make the mistake that its being fixed though. Its merely adjustments to appease those who complain the most.

None of this is a completely new system. This is just rationalising what is already there and applying some logic. If this is required to FIX the balance then so be it. They completely rebuilt craft, are changing provisioning, will add the justice system.

Completely reworking stuff to make it work is not alien to ESO. This just plays with which numbers to use when, rather than a ground up rewrite.

But yes it would/could hit like a hammer. Some would say that its needed. If there is any PVP players left to comment by that time.

This game has the potential to be balance the way it already is - and by George whether you believe it or not it's damned close to it! People use bathrobe broom stick at the moment because the min-maxers said that was strongest... 3 months ago. Right now I'm finding many good ways of dealing damage regardless of class - Any class can heal really well - not just templars and every class can tank! Zenimax has done a FANTASTIC job of tweeking numbers to allow the weaker builds of a few months ago share the spotlight.

Just give the community a month or two to catch up with the fact that you can now push well over 1k DPS with duelwield+2h you CAN heal as a DK / NB. Once the community starts seeing more and more success with the other option to what is common place now, you'll see the diversity late-game that you'd expect from a balanced game.

I admire you optimism. Seriously.
We will come back to this in 1 month.
Then see if things are balanced or more of the same.

This kind of thing doesn't give me hope....
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/09/15/battlemasters-corner--lightning-tornado

The idea of the build is to rush into combat, draw as much attention as possible, and start letting out devastating area damage that heals you. The more people around you, the easier it is to stay alive. Plus, you have the ability to escape, heal, regenerate resources, and fight on. Utilizing class abilities and dual wielding, the Sorcerer can be a nasty self-healing juggernaut, and here’s how:

So ZOS has actually commended the fact sorcs can be invincible.
Yet here I am pure melee non-magicka doing 200dps light S&B with all stamina burnt in 5 seconds maybe.

Shaloran

We have to remember that Elder Scrolls Online offers countless options for your character. If there isn't a powerful enough stamina build it's just because someone hasn't figured it out yet. I encourage users to be creative and try to win and be successful in whatever play style or build you choose to play. Remember this is ultimately YOUR character so use your instincts to make the best. Me? I am lucky in this because my favorite type of character has always been Mages. However, I would like to see the developers try and help the players out who want to play other builds and players do what's mentioned above because I ultimately want the game to be as enjoyable for other players as it is for me.

Khivas_Carrick

Dude, no. Stamina is highly underpowered lol Well maybe not highly anymore, but still, you get the point.