HASTE - Useful or Useless?

Scora

What is your opinion on the Nightblade skill Haste?
Is it worth using?

Im thinking of making a build mostly centered at doing basic, light and heavy attacks. Would haste be at all useful? o.O

Antirob

It is the most useless ability in the game. Animation cancel

Teloran

Short answer: useless.
Long answer: Since you can activate an ability while in the middle of a basic attacks animation and still have the damage from the basic attack go through, you can effectively use a basic attack before each ability and have it take up pretty much no time. This means that your attack speed in irrelevant as your actual attack speed is only dependant on how fast you can spam attack abilities.

This unfortunately makes a basic attack based build kind of useless since ability based builds get your basic attacks plus their much harder hitting abilities (which can be spammed forever with the right build). The 'bonuses' to your basic attacks don't make up for not using abilities.

The morphs for haste, however, have a place in some builds. The heavy attack bonus from incapacitating strikes in very nice if your regular attack pattern is cancelled heavy attacks into an ability.

Look at this build if you're curious.

forthewinn2

Scora wrote: »

Im thinking of making a build mostly centered at doing basic, light and heavy attacks. Would haste be at all useful? o.O

your 'build' is not viable past lv7.
#replacehastewithsomethinguseful

Galrukh

Teloran wrote: »

Short answer: useless.
Long answer: Since you can activate an ability while in the middle of a basic attacks animation and still have the damage from the basic attack go through, you can effectively use a basic attack before each ability and have it take up pretty much no time. This means that your attack speed in irrelevant as your actual attack speed is only dependant on how fast you can spam attack abilities.

This unfortunately makes a basic attack based build kind of useless since ability based builds get your basic attacks plus their much harder hitting abilities (which can be spammed forever with the right build). The 'bonuses' to your basic attacks don't make up for not using abilities.

The morphs for haste, however, have a place in some builds. The heavy attack bonus from incapacitating strikes in very nice if your regular attack pattern is cancelled heavy attacks into an ability.

Look at this build if you're curious.

This has me curious, how long do you have to wait before releasing a heavy attack in order for it do the max damage ?
I know its "until the character animation stops" but Im looking for a precise seconds/miliseconds, Im wonderinf if its worth building a macro around heavy attacks.

Atreyu

When ESO was in beta and I had to chose a class to play.
I saw HASTE and "30% faster attack speed" and went like "Oh my! Awesome! I want to make a dual wield crazy barbarian"...Oh boy I if was disappointed.

Cody

Galrukh wrote: »

Teloran wrote: »

Short answer: useless.
Long answer: Since you can activate an ability while in the middle of a basic attacks animation and still have the damage from the basic attack go through, you can effectively use a basic attack before each ability and have it take up pretty much no time. This means that your attack speed in irrelevant as your actual attack speed is only dependant on how fast you can spam attack abilities.

This unfortunately makes a basic attack based build kind of useless since ability based builds get your basic attacks plus their much harder hitting abilities (which can be spammed forever with the right build). The 'bonuses' to your basic attacks don't make up for not using abilities.

The morphs for haste, however, have a place in some builds. The heavy attack bonus from incapacitating strikes in very nice if your regular attack pattern is cancelled heavy attacks into an ability.

Look at this build if you're curious.

This has me curious, how long do you have to wait before releasing a heavy attack in order for it do the max damage ?
I know its "until the character animation stops" but Im looking for a precise seconds/miliseconds, Im wonderinf if its worth building a macro around heavy attacks.

its about 1-maybe 2.8 seconds. or somewhere close to that.

Cody

this ability was completely useless last I tried it. im not going to try it again until ZOS comfirms they have fixed it in patch notes. I have tried it twice, BOTH times, I was severely disappointed. If they don't fix it, they need to remove the ability and replace it with something that is actually useful.

Teloran

Galrukh wrote: »

Teloran wrote: »

Short answer: useless.
Long answer: Since you can activate an ability while in the middle of a basic attacks animation and still have the damage from the basic attack go through, you can effectively use a basic attack before each ability and have it take up pretty much no time. This means that your attack speed in irrelevant as your actual attack speed is only dependant on how fast you can spam attack abilities.

This unfortunately makes a basic attack based build kind of useless since ability based builds get your basic attacks plus their much harder hitting abilities (which can be spammed forever with the right build). The 'bonuses' to your basic attacks don't make up for not using abilities.

The morphs for haste, however, have a place in some builds. The heavy attack bonus from incapacitating strikes in very nice if your regular attack pattern is cancelled heavy attacks into an ability.

Look at this build if you're curious.

This has me curious, how long do you have to wait before releasing a heavy attack in order for it do the max damage ?
I know its "until the character animation stops" but Im looking for a precise seconds/miliseconds, Im wonderinf if its worth building a macro around heavy attacks.

If you don't hold a heavy attack down for the full duration it will do a weaker 'partial heavy attack. Most weapons (except bows) will launch their heavy attack as soon as they are fully charged so you could try and time it based on that.

Kego

This Skill would be awesome for bows if:

1. the Haste would apply to bows
2. Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks of Bows would hit way harder.
3. A Passive Skill in Bow that gives your Snipe a 3/6% chance to be Instant.

Than you could play a Poison Bow Build, but that are only dreams.

But still I'm atm training Haste to morph it to Focused Attacks. Wan't to try out the Stamina Regen Buff, to get the maximum Stamina Regen possible.

CapuchinSeven

Kego wrote: »

This Skill would be awesome for bows if:

1. the Haste would apply to bows
2. Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks of Bows would hit way harder.
3. A Passive Skill in Bow that gives your Snipe a 3/6% chance to be Instant.

Than you could play a Poison Bow Build, but that are only dreams.

But still I'm atm training Haste to morph it to Focused Attacks. Wan't to try out the Stamina Regen Buff, to get the maximum Stamina Regen possible.

It's okay, I'm not saying it's not useful, but as a Wood Elf Nightblade in full medium I'm already WELL into the new softcap on stamina regen.

Kego

Well, I'm "only" a Khajit. Cause it looked like the best race for a stealthy character. Anyway, I still love his look and the 6% Weapon Crit for free.

SongOfMyPeople

Kego wrote: »

This Skill would be awesome for bows if:

1. the Haste would apply to bows
2. Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks of Bows would hit way harder.
3. A Passive Skill in Bow that gives your Snipe a 3/6% chance to be Instant.

Than you could play a Poison Bow Build, but that are only dreams.

But still I'm atm training Haste to morph it to Focused Attacks. Wan't to try out the Stamina Regen Buff, to get the maximum Stamina Regen possible.

I'm trying out Focused Attacks too for the stamina buff. Have you noticed any animation glitches while using it? I'm trying to narrow down what was causing my character to go glitchy yesterday (I haven't /bug anything yet as I'm not sure).

ArRashid

Kego wrote: »

This Skill would be awesome for bows if:

1. the Haste would apply to bows
2. Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks of Bows would hit way harder.
3. A Passive Skill in Bow that gives your Snipe a 3/6% chance to be Instant.

Than you could play a Poison Bow Build, but that are only dreams.

But still I'm atm training Haste to morph it to Focused Attacks. Wan't to try out the Stamina Regen Buff, to get the maximum Stamina Regen possible.

They shouldn't increase light attack damage, because people wouldn't be forced to abandon their animation canceling builds. I say reduce light attacks even further and buff heavy attacks.

OR

Make light attacks stack a debuff - every light attack would give you a stack of "-15% light attack damage for 5(or 10) seconds" (refreshing duration when adding up). So your occasional 1-2 light attacks would do good enough damage, but it would greatly discourage animation canceling.

And heavy attacks should truly be HEAVY. Right now they deal about the same damage than instant skills.. while having 2.5+ sec "cast" time.

khele23eb17_ESO

ArRashid wrote: »

Make light attacks stack a debuff - every light attack would give you a stack of "-15% light attack damage for 5(or 10) seconds" (refreshing duration when adding up). So your occasional 1-2 light attacks would do good enough damage, but it would greatly discourage animation canceling.

Or just make it so animation clipping is not possible.

And heavy attacks should truly be HEAVY. Right now they deal about the same damage than instant skills.. while having 2.5+ sec "cast" time.

Theyd have to reduce sneak attack dmg then.

ArRashid

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

Make light attacks stack a debuff - every light attack would give you a stack of "-15% light attack damage for 5(or 10) seconds" (refreshing duration when adding up). So your occasional 1-2 light attacks would do good enough damage, but it would greatly discourage animation canceling.

Or just make it so animation clipping is not possible.

And heavy attacks should truly be HEAVY. Right now they deal about the same damage than instant skills.. while having 2.5+ sec "cast" time.

Theyd have to reduce sneak attack dmg then.

Sneak in this game is a really pathetic feature that imbalances whole game.

I mean, it's all right you get a slight (50%) damage bonus when attacking from behind.
It's all right to make nightblades able to go invisible for 2.9 seconds.
But it's NOT ALL RIGHT to make anyone who's crouching INVISIBLE. I mean, if a guy sat down in the grass in the field behind my house, I'd friggin see him from 250m, not 5. It's ridiculous how they implemented it, and it's completely breaking cyrondil.
You walk around... look, it's a flower, let me pick it up... BAM! 20 enemies materialize all around you, which is the last thing you see before respawning.... Noone has to hide behind rocks, trees or anything, they can just sit 5m from you and you see nothing?

They should just disable the invisibility (at least in cyrondil) to force people to actually hide. It would make PvP so much better.

dafraorb16_ESO

useless like half of Nightblade abilities

Banananoze

i played around with it, like most others...
SHORT ANSWER: useless
LONGerish ANSWER: if you can time your light/heavy attacks perfectly it can be nice. I mainly used light attacks with it---by the time i charged up heavy attack with a bow i would have switched to my D/w. But it can increase your dps if you wedge light attacks in between all of your other skills.

Jaxom

After testing this skill, it is promptly off my bar. Thought the 40% stamina regen from Focused Attacks would help. It didn't. It brings my regen from 110 Stamina to 130 (every 2 seconds). For an additional 10 stamina every second, it's simply not worth it. This will allow me to use an extra Venom Arrow, once every 20s. They need to give it a "when slotted" ability or change how attack speed works since it's barely noticeable.

CapuchinSeven

Yeah the stamina regen on Haste for a Nightblade is pointless, or at least pointless if you have to take up an ability slot for it. I'd really prefer an extra slot for buffs because it's getting silly how much I need to slot just to keep my stamina up.

I'm trying to get Changing Maneuver onto my bar, I'd think that would be much more useful for a Nightblade. But it costs too much stamina to use constantly during attacks and really I think I'd only use it before an opening snipe.

Jaxom

Yeah, I've been toying around with the idea of stacking Blur and Evade. This would give me 37% evade chance. Not sure how I would build around it though or how effective it would be.

CapuchinSeven

I remember reading they don't stack, they look like they do and the wording makes it sound like they do but I remember seeing testing where it showed they didn't.

Could be wrong though.

Jaxom

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I remember reading they don't stack, they look like they do and the wording makes it sound like they do but I remember seeing testing where it showed they didn't.

Could be wrong though.

well that sucks. I wonder if we could get confirmation. having 37% evade wouldn't be terrible for oh crap moments.

joshisanonymous

I don't think you should rely on basic attacks for actually doing damage, though I don't agree with those saying that it's completely useless because of animation cancelling. The thing is, to cancel animations, you have to use abilities that cost stamina or magicka. If, however, you're building a bar that will allow you to quickly regain resources using basic attacks, haste can be quite useful because it allows you to attack (with close range melee at least) just as fast as you would with animation cancelling, while still triggering Siphoning Strikes, and without wasting resources on active abilities. In PvE in particular, this can be really useful, since you don't have to worry about how fast you're killing things (outside of trials).

zgrssd

It all depends on how well you can use that higher attack speed.

Enchantments have a internal cooldown and you propably outspeed it with dual wield + medium armor already.

So it depends on how good you are focussed on Weapon Damage (and thus Basic Attack damage) and how little of your skills use Weapon Damage in return (quite a lot of NB skills use weapon damage or crit so they get teh sneak attack bonus).

It could also be usefull in conjunction with siphoning strikes, in particular the health regen morph. That one has a cooldown equal to how fast you can attack.
But that is only a theory.
Abilities like Igenious Weapons from allied DK or Expert Hunter could also benefit from the extra Speed, asuming they do not affect most of your abilities already.
Basically anything that would work on every hit regardless of cooldown + spamming light attacks might be a nice combination.


Animation Cancel and that basic attacks are mostly a fallback kinda steals attack speed boosts the show.


Overall basic attack is something you use in one of two cases (aside from animation cancel):
1. The target is off balance. Here a heavy attack with the knockdown will be worth the effort compared to a skill use. Also you often nedded a skill/block/interrupt to put them off balance in the first place (so this actually about getting the top out of your already used resources).
2. You are either out of mana/stam or want to conserve resources.

zazamalek

In PvP it can work as a cheap way to burn through someone's stamina. Also, you can use it as a stamina recovery booster (<Focused Attacks> morph, who knows if this actually works). I've given a few of those "block in bannertalons" DKs a seriously nasty fright with it, but I was specifically out to troll them.

In general, though, it's useless.

Stannum

before vr zones mobs nerf i used focused attacks in my build for stamina regen boost and additional 3% crit. It helped to solo vr-zones without difficulties, after vr mobs nerf it is easy to solo without it. Sometimes i use it against 4-5 mobs group when solo travelling in Craglorn.

vFadeToBlackv

I was wondering if Haste, Siphoning Strikes, and a Restoration Staff heavy attack would be awesome or not. Does Siphoning Strikes activate from each tick of the staff? If so, it could be a phenomenal way to make a heavy armor build work, or any build that requires regen of multiple attributes. I suppose even if it doesn't, then Haste plus restoration staff should still be pretty good.

forthewinn2

vFadeToBlackv wrote: »

I was wondering if Haste, Siphoning Strikes, and a Restoration Staff heavy attack would be awesome or not. Does Siphoning Strikes activate from each tick of the staff? If so, it could be a phenomenal way to make a heavy armor build work, or any build that requires regen of multiple attributes. I suppose even if it doesn't, then Haste plus restoration staff should still be pretty good.

It only procs once for the entire duration of the heavy attack, making a resto staff a terrible use of both haste and siphoning strikes (resto staff attacks are already super slow to begin with so haste doesnt really boost your number of attacks by much, the amount of extra magicka you get doesnt even cover the cost of using haste once).
Also the leeching strikes morph(the one which gives health back) has an internal cooldown hence using it with haste is pretty pointless.

Haste and dual wield with leeching strikes had potential, but the presence of the internal cooldown put an end to that fantasy.

Nice idea but in reality it's pretty much the opposite of awesome.

Darkonflare15

Well I find focused attacks morph of haste pretty useful when I combine it with leeching strikes. I get back stamina fast plus I love to use focused attacks to get 40% stamina regen while I am running so I do run out of stamina.

Honfold

I use the morph for the Stamina regeneration in combat. If i can not burst down my target, and I do not run, I tend to pop Focused Attacks and use a combination of roll dodge for defense and light/heavy attacks with some venom arrow weaving. It works well for long fights.

Also I have Vampire mist on my bar now so I pop that and use it so I can regen my stamina with focused attacks still active.