Separate PVP and PVE skill abilities.

Loyheta

How difficult would it be to have each pve move have a different formula in pvp? I think it would go a long way if you could have a pvp team to come up with independent skill damage and cost formulae. This way you could have the pve team balancing pve content and the pvp team balancing pvp. This way we can have scenic moves that really give an impression and, hell, stop a boss in it's tracks and have the pvp guys worry about no one becoming class/build of the day.

I would hope that you enjoy your pve content (the quests, the stories, the lore) more than a bunch of people spamming impulse and reflect. Yes I'm biased, I like doing dungeons and questing without becoming gimped.

TLDR; Each skill having a pve and pvp side to it. Separate them to better balance them for their respective users.

Rune_Relic

I think the whole point of the game is to let you move seamlessly from PVE to PVP with the same character. That concept goes out the window with what you are asking. It will just break the already broken mechanics and balance even more and split the PVE and PVP players into two distinct groups.

God knows this community is fractured enough as it is.

Ser Lobo

Secondly, PvE players are often requesting balance passes and changes, due to the imbalances between classes and abilities. If you don't agree, watch the Trail posters and how they are currently upset with scaling between sorcerer/nightblade damage output, etc.

I believe that even if you separated the skills, the op would still be upset because the devs have intentionally made changes to PVE mobs that make them more immune to CC and power-play, which has forced many PvE players to focus less on CC-cycle builds and more on damage dealing.

Many in the PvE community assume that every balance pass their class gets, HAS to come from those hated PvPers, when if they played both styles and treated both playstyles fairly, they'd see that the devs are making each balance change with both in mind and have their own goals and ideals.

Nox_Aeterna

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Secondly, PvE players are often requesting balance passes and changes, due to the imbalances between classes and abilities. If you don't agree, watch the Trail posters and how they are currently upset with scaling between sorcerer/nightblade damage output, etc.

I believe that even if you separated the skills, the op would still be upset because the devs have intentionally made changes to PVE mobs that make them more immune to CC and power-play, which has forced many PvE players to focus less on CC-cycle builds and more on damage dealing.

Many in the PvE community assume that every balance pass their class gets, HAS to come from those hated PvPers, when if they played both styles and treated both playstyles fairly, they'd see that the devs are making each balance change with both in mind and have their own goals and ideals.

Ofc they keep asking , honestly , sometimes one must wonder wth are zen devs thinking.

Usually in other MMOs , with raids and such , what matters the most is that you beat the content. So as long as you can do it , even if your build is not the best of the best , it is passable.

For some reason , the devs here created trials , now trials are another thing entirely , because they are set to test your time while beating the content. So now just winning is not enough , you must be the fastest doing it also.

Since PvE now is not a competition against NPCs only anymore , but against players also on some level , people complain about others being too strong and all that just like PvP player do.

Ser Lobo

Happens even in raids and dungeons in other games, when groups are trying to generate 'optimal' build runs and thus exclude entire classes and those not running appropriate skills or gear.

PvE is just as competitive, and full of just as many elitists. In WoW, if a Paladin outheals a priest while also tanking, the priests get on the forums and complain for Paladin skills to be fixed.

It is the nature of MMO's. We may not be the best at our class, but for many players that isn't a prerequisite to be jealous and covet the capabilities of others. If your nightblade has a hard time with Molag Bal, and some guildie says his dragonknight one-shot him, there's often a call for nerfs. And that's solo content.

It's just more likely the PvE-focused player ignores what he sees as 'trivial' calls for nerfs from players doing PvE and Solo, but wants to blame PvPers for anything he experiences.

Has nothing really to do with proof or logic, it's impression and bias. If a person dislikes PvPers, they dislike PvPers. They may make an exception, but it's not different than a person deciding all black people are one way, or all women are bad, etc. Their goal is NOT to see things fairly or justly ... it's to push a biased opinion because they dislike the other party.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

I think seperate skills for pvp & pve would be a good thing,
note that most skills would probably be the same, only some would be tweaked a little bit (like for instance the CC imunity to roots)

Ser Lobo

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

(like for instance the CC imunity to roots)

Which was specifically added to mobs, and wasn't a change to any one skill. ZOS *wanted* NPCs to have some CC immunity. It wasn't related to PvP in any way, except that they added it about the same time they added player CC immunities.

Anastasia

Loyheta wrote: »

How difficult would it be to have each pve move have a different formula in pvp? I think it would go a long way if you could have a pvp team to come up with independent skill damage and cost formulae. This way you could have the pve team balancing pve content and the pvp team balancing pvp. This way we can have scenic moves that really give an impression and, hell, stop a boss in it's tracks and have the pvp guys worry about no one becoming class/build of the day.

I would hope that you enjoy your pve content (the quests, the stories, the lore) more than a bunch of people spamming impulse and reflect. Yes I'm biased, I like doing dungeons and questing without becoming gimped.

TLDR; Each skill having a pve and pvp side to it. Separate them to better balance them for their respective users.

---

Literally diametrically opposed to the head dev's interviews pre-launch of this MMO. But then, so was challenging, group-motivated questing in Vet+ content, and they nerfed that. So why not ask. ;o(

Loyheta

@ruze84b14_ESO‌ yeah I really don't know why you get the impression that I am some lazy pve'er that just sits around wanting to be given everything. i don't appreciate you insinuating that I blame everything on pvp'ers either. I am not asking for the entire system to be overhauled I am talking about small modifiers that would make pvp and pve more balanced.

The fact is that pve take a big hit from pvp and pvp takes a big hit from pve. Sure making them interdependant like pvp buffs for pve is a good gimmick to get people to pvp. I am just asking how could it harm the game if pvp an pve were balanced slightly different? Would you prefer pvp to be fast and bloody or pve? would you prefer pvp to be slow and tactical or pve? Would you want one to be quick while the other slow? These game features aren't the same so they shouldn't be treated the same. How can they make tanks more viable in pve if it makes them gods in pvp? How can we make the trials more about challenge and less about critting and dps race when zerging is the mantra for pvp?

I know many of you may not understand or agree with what I am getting at. Some may think I am asking for an easy mode. I'm not; I'm asking for pve and pvp to get the detailed attention they deserve and the balance to make them fun. I don't know about you guys but I get my kicks from playing with my friends with the builds I like and not about stacking crit til my eyes bleed then spamming aoes.

Loyheta

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I think the whole point of the game is to let you move seamlessly from PVE to PVP with the same character. That concept goes out the window with what you are asking. It will just break the already broken mechanics and balance even more and split the PVE and PVP players into two distinct groups.

God knows this community is fractured enough as it is.

I dont know anyone that uses the same build for pvp as they do for pve. They always use a single target, and aoe, then the rest situational/cc skills. While in pve they seem to stack aoes >.>

I am talking small modifiers. No reason a player stacking magic resist or holding block the entire fight will respond the same as an npc sitting there with the same 3 moves. So pvp make impulse do more damage but at greater cost while in pve have it hit more targets or something. It's not hard to think of ways to make skills more appropriate for each of their fields. I'm not talking about weakening them, I'm talking about giving them flavor for where they are used.

Edit: like the dk shield ability. Make it the user take less damage from aoes in pvp and possibly more targets and make it absorb more damage with a health regen buff for pve. *shrug* I'm just spit balling. I'm trying to make skills more appealing to all players instead of tearing this community apart.

Orchidea

Imho, if you don't see a skill suitable for PVP without a huge sign next to it, then it's your own fault. Common sense also applies here.

Ser Lobo

Loyheta wrote: »

@ruze84b14_ESO‌ yeah I really don't know why you get the impression that I am some lazy pve'er that just sits around wanting to be given everything. i don't appreciate you insinuating that I blame everything on pvp'ers either. I am not asking for the entire system to be overhauled I am talking about small modifiers that would make pvp and pve more balanced.

The fact is that pve take a big hit from pvp and pvp takes a big hit from pve. Sure making them interdependant like pvp buffs for pve is a good gimmick to get people to pvp. I am just asking how could it harm the game if pvp an pve were balanced slightly different? Would you prefer pvp to be fast and bloody or pve? would you prefer pvp to be slow and tactical or pve? Would you want one to be quick while the other slow? These game features aren't the same so they shouldn't be treated the same. How can they make tanks more viable in pve if it makes them gods in pvp? How can we make the trials more about challenge and less about critting and dps race when zerging is the mantra for pvp?

I know many of you may not understand or agree with what I am getting at. Some may think I am asking for an easy mode. I'm not; I'm asking for pve and pvp to get the detailed attention they deserve and the balance to make them fun. I don't know about you guys but I get my kicks from playing with my friends with the builds I like and not about stacking crit til my eyes bleed then spamming aoes.

What I see, is a player asking for developers to work twice as hard designing and implementing changes to what becomes two unique and complex combat systems.

And players to be even more segregated because the abilities they know and love as they leveled, are now sometimes very different from the abilities they use in PvP.

Further separating and pushing the two playerbases apart, because players cannot seem to understand that the developers don't INTEND to allow overpowered abilities to continue to exist in PvE, and don't intend for stun-locked elite mobs or solo-build group bosses, and are taking measures to fix them.

I am disagreeing with that player, and attempting to highlight the usual reasoning others have shown for asking for these changes. Any implication was strictly intended as a broad condemnation on a general group, not on any individual in specific, as I don't know you at all.

I see no difference between PvE players and PvP players. I don't believe a game should be built to make too much of a distinction. I believe wholeheartedly that by doing so, you alienate and attempt to keep more PvE players from enjoying PvP, and attempt to segregate and separate PvP players from general discourse discussions because they have 'separate rules'.

I very much see it as something akin to the double standard for women in the military, or segregation laws. Claim equality, but then put laws in place (in this case, rules) which make sure that both operate independent of one another.

I cannot understand why the developers should allow shield bashing, or overpowered vampire abilities, or massive damage nightblade ultimates, just in PvE. Even taking PvP out of this game, I would have argued those abilities were broken and unbalanced, and needed fixed. They were simply illogical in power compared to effort spent.

CoolsHisHands

Separate PvE and PvP stats/skills has always been a bad move for MMOs. Balance the game so skills work as they should everywhere. Don't tweak them so they work differently depending on where you're standing.

ZoS should be encouraging everyone to take part in PvP by allowing what has been practiced in PvE to work against other players as well. Separate stats/skills for PvP just further polarizes the community between PvE'ers and PvP'ers. People who PvE will tend to avoid PvP because they don't have the skills, and those who PvP will tend to avoid PvE because they've built their toon for killing players. Both groups will look down on the other.

The same goes for the Vet and non-Vet campaigns. Bad decision, explicitly splitting the community with game mechanics.

Ser Lobo

bhuismanb16_ESO wrote: »

Separate PvE and PvP stats/skills has always been a bad move for MMOs. Balance the game so skills work as they should everywhere. Don't tweak them so they work differently depending on where you're standing.

ZoS should be encouraging everyone to take part in PvP by allowing what has been practiced in PvE to work against other players as well. Separate stats/skills for PvP just further polarizes the community between PvE'ers and PvP'ers. People who PvE will tend to avoid PvP because they don't have the skills, and those who PvP will tend to avoid PvE because they've built their toon for killing players. Both groups will look down on the other.

I'd agree with this. If a skill is 'obviously useless' in PvP, then the skill needs readdressed, possibly even rebuilt completely, to make it worthwhile.

In short, due to the difficulty of two players fighting each other, you can have one simple rule: if it isn't balanced in PvP, it isn't balanced.

Loyheta

@ruze84b14_ESO‌ although I see this as a solution to the problem instead of making it a larger problem I still appreciate your candor and decorum. Took your earlier messages as directly aimed at me. Maybe i read into them too much, maybe they weren't as tactful as your follow up. I digress.

I personally will never see PvE and PvP as completely symbiotic. To me PvE will always be about overcoming clearly constructed challenges while PvP is about outsmarting through tactics. Both are susceptible to exploiting skills but PvP is more since it allows whole armies to be "cheap". I know when this game started I had a handful of friends leveling through PvP. They always got high quality drops of their level, while in PvE we only had greens from questing with the extremely rare blue from a chest. They didn't have to worry about bugged quests, broken spawns, and many other things that could stop you dead in your tracks in PvE. I guess my point is that they have never been the same and I doubt they ever will unless they are fully merged.

I don't care for PvP; I won't hide this. I still take part because there are dyes that I want that require me to PvP. There are titles that require me to PvP. Guess I just miss PvE-centric games where PvP was an afterthought and only impacted pvpers. Guess this is my own dated notions and maybe my idea would cause more harm than good. I just wanted to throw out the idea and how I think it could be implemented. Wanted people to discuss this with me with an open mind. I still think it could work and I still think players mostly don't see pvp as equal to pve, or vice versa.