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[IN PROGRESS] PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Cleave should hit harder than Pulsar
Mykah
✭✭✭
Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
7
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Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭idk what to think about it. I myself would not want to see the bleed effect go. it would be like increasing the power of poison arrow, but taking out the poison:/ but that's just me. I don't think ANY ability should be bought up to the power of pulsar. I think pulsar should just be toned down to the other abilities.Edited by Cody on 14 July 2014 04:360 -
Mykah✭✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »What a completely random comparison.
Weapon skills that are AE damage. One is the strongest AE in game, one is the weakest.2 -
Mykah✭✭✭NookyZooky wrote: »idk what to think about it. I myself would not want to see the bleed effect go. it would be like increasing the power of poison arrow, but taking out the poison:/ but that's just me. I don't think ANY ability should be bought up to the power of pulsar. I think pulsar should just be toned down to the other abilities.
Dont worry, no one uses Cleave so removing the bleed damage will go unnoticed.1 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
So did you thoroughly test this with identical players using identical gear, stats and set bonuses? And I mean things like this as an example:
Player A (Cleave) = 2000 Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Physical crit.
Player B (Puslar) = 2000 Magicka, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Spell crit.
With both players hitting the exact same number of the exact same enemies repeatedly for no less than a 5 minutes test and then averaged the numbers out to get a result? To top that off, why are you stating Cleave (unmorphed) versus Pulsar (morphed)? At the base Cleave vs Impulse, Cleave is the clear winner in total damage done unmodified. Both abilities can hit the same number of targets and it's only the morphs of Impulse that are somewhat more usefull than the morphs of Cleave. I would however argue that Carve is VERY nice with it's ultimate gain, I'd take that over -10% Health or a meh DoT any day.
TL:DR version - No, 1 AOE shouldn't inherently do more damage than another just because you say so.6 -
sbanned_530978✭✭✭Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
So did you thoroughly test this with identical players using identical gear, stats and set bonuses? And I mean things like this as an example:
Player A (Cleave) = 2000 Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Physical crit.
Player B (Puslar) = 2000 Magicka, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Spell crit.
With both players hitting the exact same number of the exact same enemies repeatedly for no less than a 5 minutes test and then averaged the numbers out to get a result? To top that off, why are you stating Cleave (unmorphed) versus Pulsar (morphed)? At the base Cleave vs Impulse, Cleave is the clear winner in total damage done unmodified. Both abilities can hit the same number of targets and it's only the morphs of Impulse that are somewhat more usefull than the morphs of Cleave. I would however argue that Carve is VERY nice with it's ultimate gain, I'd take that over -10% Health or a meh DoT any day.
TL:DR version - No, 1 AOE shouldn't inherently do more damage than another just because you say so.
Lol cleave and WW are far weaker than impulse, you cannot compare them how your trying A vs B.
Light armor and destro staff have spell pen, medium armor and 2h or daggers dont have armor pen. You can get much higher spell crit with mage light and light armor crit.
Cleave should do more dmg in that it has a smaller radius and that we are comparing a magicka aoe vs the only other stamina aoe besides WW and volly which we both know suck.Edited by sbanned_530978 on 14 July 2014 05:260 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Lol cleave does not beat impulse. modified or unmodified. the bleed is garbage even with the recent boost.
you do NOT see people out with 2h swords spamming cleave and decimating, and you never will because its garbage and takes too much precious stamina. you see impulse spam, impulse spam, impulse spam.
Cleave's base hit very much deserves to be greater than impulse's.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 14 July 2014 05:361 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol Carve and WW are far weaker than impulse, you cannot compare them how your trying A vs B.
Light armor and destro staff have spell pen, medium armor and 2h or daggers dont have armor pen. You can get much higher spell crit with mage light and light armor crit.
Cleave should do more dmg in that it has a smaller radius and that we are comparing a magicka aoe vs the only other stamina aoe besides WW and volly which we both know suck.
Have you looked at the 1.3 changes to set bonuses? I'm gonna guess not. Once 1.3 is live Physical crit will be MUCH higher than Spell crit (capability). As for my comparison, it's exactly correct as that's exactly how you have to compare abilities to get honest base numbers. You can also test it with equivilent penetration as long as the SPen doesn't exceed the current highest capable ArPen. ArPen is the highest atm if you build it right, it's just hard to get 100% uptime.
Glyph of Crushing: Reduces target's armor by X for Y seconds.
Night Mother's Gaze: 5pc - Crits reduce target's armor by X for 5 sec.
Powered: Weapon trait to reduce the ICD of Glyph of Crushing.
-OR-
Sharpened: Weapon trait for ArPen and SPen.
So one couldn't have a 100% up time of a higher ArPen as one can with Light Armor's 42% SPen but it's close.
I'm not arguing that Stamina builds still need help as they certainly do. But a baseless argument with no testing to back it up is just that. If you put 2 players side by side with identical stats (Magicka vs Stamina) and used the base ability of both I'd bet you'd find that Cleave does indeed do more damage/DPS than Impulse.0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So maybe we should remove the trait of spell pen from light armor and force all you light armor wearers to go for crafted, glyphed, or set bonuses for spell pen instead of having 42% up at all times.
I'm fairly sure you haven't even tested out, or even looked at cleave, yourself. Impulse is SPAMMED because you don't have to worry about a bleed over 10 seconds with a weak ass base hit. if you have to wait 10 seconds for bleed before using it again, you will never do as much damage as impulse casted 8 times in that 10 seconds. and casting cleave 8 times in 10 seconds does nothing but remove your stamina.
I have both morphs, carve and brawler, both leveled up to rank 4 from respecing and both of them out. they're garbage in both pvp and pve. They don't have a place on any of my bars. Both morphs of impulse beat both morphs of carve. And don't forget that impulse is unblockable and cleave is.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 14 July 2014 06:021 -
sbanned_530978✭✭✭@DeLindsay
So what you want to 2 people to stand side by side.
But the 1 testing cleave with medium armor is using a 5 set bonus, a wep enchant + specific trait. Thats adding alot of variables.
You get a 52% spell pen just for using light armor and destro staff0 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭No I'm saying the arbitrary comment by the OP that Cleave should automatically do higher base damage than Impulse (although he said Pulsar) is flawed. Yes Stamina builds need help and yes ZoS is working on them and yes it's slower than players would like. My original comment would suffice as a proper test if neither player had any penetration. An AOE that's directional doesn't NEED to do more damage than an AOE that's omni-directional just because a player thinks it should.
Right now Sticks and Skirts are the FOTM. If ZoS keeps up the work on Stamina based builds like with the set changes in 1.3 we might see (hopefully) that Stick and Skirts are no longer the FOTM here in the coming months, who knows for sure.
Absolutely false, you can block to mitigate some of the damage from 100% of abilities in the game from Player or NPC, with any weapon equipped.demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »And don't forget that impulse is unblockable and cleave is.1 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭No, you can't block impulse, at all. Just like you can't block talons, fire rune, siege weapons, Honor guard rage, Storm mage ground aoe damage (Listed as "Storm damage" in death recap), etc.
Starting to wonder if you pvp right now.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 14 July 2014 07:381 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes you CAN block Impulse, to mitigate some of the damage. I'm starting to wonder if you're unclear as to what Block is in ESO. I'm not saying Impulse won't still hit you and still do damage to you I'm saying, like with any ability, you can hold RMB and mitigate some of the incoming damage. You cannot block or stop in any way the 10% Health debuff from Pulsar or the DoT from Elemental Ring, but that's different entirely.1 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭You should go and check your assumptions. You'll notice your stamina doesn't go down when you attempt to block impulse as well, Because you're not blocking even 1% of it.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 14 July 2014 08:240
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IxSTALKERxI✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't have a problem with the damage of cleave. The problem I have is it's range is 1-2m too short. If there are 2 enemies standing behind each other with a 5m gap inbetween them, you can't hit both of them... where as with an aoe you can stand inbetween them. Eg. Resource flag you can't hit all 4 NPC's with cleave.
don't quite have the reach. NA | PC | Aldmeri DominionLaser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of BlackwaterFormer Emperor x11 campaign cyclesVenatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel0 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »You should go and check your assumptions. You'll notice your stamina doesn't go down when you attempt to block impulse as well, Because you're not blocking even 1% of it.
Do you happen to use the FTC addon by chance? If you do you will notice when you hold RMB when an enemy does any kind of attack that hits you, whether directed or area effect you will notice a different number scroll on the right side in (). You would then also notice that the mitigation part of the built in "meter" shows your block ate some of that incoming damage. If you don't use that addon I'd suggest at least trying it even if just to realize it for yourself that you can in fact Block abilities in ESO to mitigate some amount of damage.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
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The mages spamming impulse, thinking that it is blockable and they are so pro pvpers are the worst players. They call all others noobs because they cannot block an unblockable skill or because they are wiped by the train.Yes you CAN block Impulse, to mitigate some of the damage. I'm starting to wonder if you're unclear as to what Block is in ESO. I'm not saying Impulse won't still hit you and still do damage to you I'm saying, like with any ability, you can hold RMB and mitigate some of the incoming damage. You cannot block or stop in any way the 10% Health debuff from Pulsar or the DoT from Elemental Ring, but that's different entirely.
Because I can!2 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »You should go and check your assumptions. You'll notice your stamina doesn't go down when you attempt to block impulse as well, Because you're not blocking even 1% of it.
Do you happen to use the FTC addon by chance? If you do you will notice when you hold RMB when an enemy does any kind of attack that hits you, whether directed or area effect you will notice a different number scroll on the right side in (). You would then also notice that the mitigation part of the built in "meter" shows your block ate some of that incoming damage. If you don't use that addon I'd suggest at least trying it even if just to realize it for yourself that you can in fact Block abilities in ESO to mitigate some amount of damage.
You don't need an addon to Hold block and watch your stamina. It doesnt move, because it didn't get blocked.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 14 July 2014 10:432 -
Mykah✭✭✭
Yeah, I was expecting some caster rage response to this post.Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
So did you thoroughly test this with identical players using identical gear, stats and set bonuses? And I mean things like this as an example:
Player A (Cleave) = 2000 Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Physical crit.
Player B (Puslar) = 2000 Magicka, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Spell crit.
With both players hitting the exact same number of the exact same enemies repeatedly for no less than a 5 minutes test and then averaged the numbers out to get a result? To top that off, why are you stating Cleave (unmorphed) versus Pulsar (morphed)? At the base Cleave vs Impulse, Cleave is the clear winner in total damage done unmodified. Both abilities can hit the same number of targets and it's only the morphs of Impulse that are somewhat more usefull than the morphs of Cleave. I would however argue that Carve is VERY nice with it's ultimate gain, I'd take that over -10% Health or a meh DoT any day.
TL:DR version - No, 1 AOE shouldn't inherently do more damage than another just because you say so.
You know how I know you have no idea what youre talking about? Because there is no testing a 2h vs Destro skill with perfectly equal gear. Why? Because light armor has spell penetration and medium does not.
A real test would be:
A (Cleave) 2000 stam, 165 Weapon Damage, 40% weapon crit, 1250 armor debuff from PvP 2h glyph on ONE target every ten seconds.
B (Pulsar) 2000 Magicka, 135 Spell Damage, 40% spell crit, 52% spell penetration from light armor on ALL targets ALL the time.
6 Targets, all soft capped armor / spell resist, 3 in front 3 behind, all holding block.
THAT is the current reality in Pvp.
Cleave is a joke and needs a base damage increase, end of story.
Edited by Mykah on 14 July 2014 20:304 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
So did you thoroughly test this with identical players using identical gear, stats and set bonuses? And I mean things like this as an example:
Player A (Cleave) = 2000 Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Physical crit.
Player B (Puslar) = 2000 Magicka, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Spell crit.
With both players hitting the exact same number of the exact same enemies repeatedly for no less than a 5 minutes test and then averaged the numbers out to get a result? To top that off, why are you stating Cleave (unmorphed) versus Pulsar (morphed)? At the base Cleave vs Impulse, Cleave is the clear winner in total damage done unmodified. Both abilities can hit the same number of targets and it's only the morphs of Impulse that are somewhat more usefull than the morphs of Cleave. I would however argue that Carve is VERY nice with it's ultimate gain, I'd take that over -10% Health or a meh DoT any day.
TL:DR version - No, 1 AOE shouldn't inherently do more damage than another just because you say so.
Dont forget to add blocks and dodges your rarely are at full endo. Impulse / staff users can do both of these with out worrying..plus there is no warlock flood endo set... mage light 20% crit there is nothing like this in endo based damage..lets look at medium armor because you need it to get into the crit range of a staff med is great for crits you sacrifice spell resists..impulse staff users do not have to worry about spell resists as much. . Im sorry but cleave is not nearly as effective... plus pbaoe is always a better/ easier mechanic then frontal
.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
ThyIronFist✭✭✭✭✭Aside from a bit of ulti-gain, Cleave is one of the most completely useless abilities in the game. Buff it by hundreds of % please.The Elder Zergs Online
Sainur Ironfist - DK - EU - Ebonheart Pact
Retired0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, I was expecting some caster rage response to this post.Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
So did you thoroughly test this with identical players using identical gear, stats and set bonuses? And I mean things like this as an example:
Player A (Cleave) = 2000 Stamina, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Physical crit.
Player B (Puslar) = 2000 Magicka, 120 Weapon Damage, 40% Spell crit.
With both players hitting the exact same number of the exact same enemies repeatedly for no less than a 5 minutes test and then averaged the numbers out to get a result? To top that off, why are you stating Cleave (unmorphed) versus Pulsar (morphed)? At the base Cleave vs Impulse, Cleave is the clear winner in total damage done unmodified. Both abilities can hit the same number of targets and it's only the morphs of Impulse that are somewhat more usefull than the morphs of Cleave. I would however argue that Carve is VERY nice with it's ultimate gain, I'd take that over -10% Health or a meh DoT any day.
TL:DR version - No, 1 AOE shouldn't inherently do more damage than another just because you say so.
You know how I know you have no idea what youre talking about? Because there is no testing a 2h vs Destro skill with perfectly equal gear. Why? Because light armor has spell penetration and medium does not.
A real test would be:
A (Cleave) 2000 stam, 165 Weapon Damage, 40% weapon crit, 1250 armor debuff from PvP 2h glyph on ONE target every ten seconds.
B (Pulsar) 2000 Magicka, 135 Spell Damage, 40% spell crit, 52% spell penetration from light armor on ALL targets ALL the time.
6 Targets, all soft capped armor / spell resist, 3 in front 3 behind, all holding block.
THAT is the current reality in Pvp.
Cleave is a joke and needs a base damage increase, end of story.
Add on attempting to play like impulse is blockable.0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
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one has a large AoE circle, the other a small AoE cone.Lava_Croft wrote: »What a completely random comparison.
Weapon skills that are AE damage. One is the strongest AE in game, one is the weakest.
everything but pulsar gets the shaft in AoE power
PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.2 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
one has a large AoE circle, the other a small AoE cone.Lava_Croft wrote: »What a completely random comparison.
Weapon skills that are AE damage. One is the strongest AE in game, one is the weakest.
everything but pulsar gets the shaft in AoE power
Well, pulsar and talons... but pulsar certainly hits harder than talons.0 -
Tintinabula✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have this staff..Its magical..imbued with fire..Ive studied years how to cast spells so fire will burst from it.
along comes a guy who got a sword from the local blacksmiths and is swinging it around like there's no tomorrow. Should it do more damage than my pretty shiny magical stick?..."no"
Edited by Tintinabula on 16 July 2014 03:071 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »I have this staff..Its magical..imbued with fire..Ive studied years how to cast spells so fire will burst from it.
along comes a guy who got a sword from the local blacksmiths and is swinging it around like there's no tomorrow. Should it do more damage than my pretty shiny magical stick?..."no"
lol no. this is just silly. People train to be able to fight more effectively with swords.
Go watch Gladiator.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 16 July 2014 04:071 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Without commenting on the math, I can agree with Cleave should do significantly more damage than Pulsar.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Tintinabula✭✭✭✭✭
✭seriously though..why not pick up and train destro staff? That's why they made the game the way they did. With the right weapon all classes even have a spell practically identical to DK scales. juss sayin. There's nothing keeping you from having that damage...except you.Edited by Tintinabula on 16 July 2014 04:420 -
DontBeAfraid✭✭✭Pulsar works 360*, Cleave only hits 180*.
If pulsar crits for 600, cleave should be critting for 800.
They can remove the bleed, I'm cool with that.
Thoughts?
bleed = main source of ulti gain.
remove bleed = no more ult from the skill = bad/useless skill.
btw making cleave stronger than impule wouldnt change anything.
as long stamina builds / heavy+medium armor are that poor nobody will use cleave.
when they equal light medium heavy and they buff cleave.
well what do u expect? hopefully not everyone maybe just using cleave over impulse then?
aoes in total need a rework. not single spells.Marlic - Dragonknight - VR12 - Aldmeri Dominion - PvP Rank 29 - Ex-Emperor on Dawnbreaker - EU1