Should there be a (time) penalty from deaths in Cyrodiil (pvp)?

Ardeni

I wanted to start a discussion on the subject of death penalty in Cyrodiil as I didn't find any threads exactly on this topic on the forums. First of all: What I have in mind is a time penalty of 10-60 seconds, not a repair bill or something like that.

Currently, when you die to another player or to guards there is no penalty, apart from a walk back from the nearest keep unless your allies have spawned a camp nearby. The thing is that the camps are cheap and easy to spawn anywhere, whether you're defending or attacking and whether you are in possession of the keeps resources or not. Thus, at least in the campaign where I play (Goldbrand, EU) all the three alliances are spamming camps everywhere and there is virtually no death penalty. This pretty much discourages smart gameplay as you can just charge in, maybe kill one player if you're lucky, die and come back.

Even if you're not into doing that, it soon becomes impossible to capture keeps from large amount of defenders even if you kill them all once, twice, thrice or so on. If one alliance has much more players than the other two, it will easily overpower them due to the numbers even if their tactics aren't very advanced. It doesn't matter how many times you kill somebody, because he can instantly respawn in a camp nearby and be back in 10-20 seconds.

Even destroying the camps won't really do much good if you have a small group defending against a bit group, since every man around counts and you can't just send one person to destroy the new camp over and over again (besides there are so, so many places where you can put the camps you would need at least five people for this task).

A penalty of, say, 30 seconds after death would reward people who play smart and are able to kill a group with larger numbers with the ability to capture keeps after wiping the enemy players in a fight. Currently this may work sometimes, if you happen to destroy the camp just at the right time, but at least in 90% of the cases wiping the enemy zerg is, while being a good source of alliance points, insignificant. The systems of keeps being contested are useless as long as the camps are so cheap.

There are many ways to add a penalty, of course. Your stats could recieve a hit for a certain period of time (or for a certain amount of kills you need). The respawn timer could increase if you die more frequently (say, 0s -> 10s -> 20s...) during a short period of time. Your enemies could get a bonus to stats for killing you multiple times. The cost of forward camps could be increased. The downtime between setting up a new forward camp could be added. The variations are endless. I decided to keep the poll question simple enough, though. Do you think there should be a death penalty to prevent people from constantly spawning in the same location to be back at the battle within seconds?

TL;DR: Forward camps are currently being spammed endlessly and due to their cheap cost destroying them is of little use. Thus players are able to get into the same fight within seconds only to die dozens of times within in a small period of time. Should something be done to prevent this?

Fanfaron

Yes

Here is video about fighting inside unsieged keep, not about forward camps, but it's same, I think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWISdfy4pyM

Avidus

No

I think they should just significantly increase the cost of forward camps. Make them something significant.

Ardeni

Yes

Fanfaron wrote: »

Here is video about fighting inside unsieged keep, not about forward camps, but it's same, I think

[snip]

This is pretty much what I meant. I'm a part of a small guild myself and usually we end up having to clear the keeps for hours before anything happens (we either leave or we're lucky with the destruction of the camps and actually get the castle). If we leave and let the enemy keep their beloved keep after facing the 94th reincarnation of xXsuperawesomeplayerXx, is it really their victory, or ours? Whatever the case, the keep is theirs.

Tintinabula

No

No, don't need more coding for ppl to exploit.

Sunrock

No

There is already a "time penalty" for dying in PvP in Cyrodiil. It's called travel time.

Regarding forward camps. Well you can't really put them on the front line can you? Well you can but if you really need to use them you don't want to have them on the front line as enemy will just become happy and farm the crap out of you every time you spawn if not some noob come and burn the tent that is and stop the AP farming.

Also if the enemy use allot of forward camps you just have to adjust your tactics to it and burn then down if you don't want to camp them to farm AP.

PS: Half the time the tent bugs out anyway and cant be used at all. Best they fix the tents so they work as intended before anything else is done.

Sunrock

No

Ardeni wrote: »

Fanfaron wrote: »

Here is video about fighting inside unsieged keep, not about forward camps, but it's same, I think

[snip]

This is pretty much what I meant. I'm a part of a small guild myself and usually we end up having to clear the keeps for hours before anything happens (we either leave or we're lucky with the destruction of the camps and actually get the castle). If we leave and let the enemy keep their beloved keep after facing the 94th reincarnation of xXsuperawesomeplayerXx, is it really their victory, or ours? Whatever the case, the keep is theirs.

How small is your group? 2-3 players if it takes hours to clear the keeps. An empty keep takes about 10 minutes to clear for 6 players including braking the walls/doors. If the keep is defended by players it really depends but you have no problem fighting 2:1 in this game. Problems starting at 3:1 ..... Asuming you're all V12 by now.

Wideglide007

No

Avidus wrote: »

I think they should just significantly increase the cost of forward camps. Make them something significant.

maybe if they usually worked lol

Gilvoth

No

no, please leave it as it is currently.

Tannakaobi

No

Ardeni wrote: »

If we leave and let the enemy keep their beloved keep after facing the 94th reincarnation of xXsuperawesomeplayerXx, is it really their victory, or ours? Whatever the case, the keep is theirs.

Don't bring me into this, I've not even been in PVP

demenzia

Yes

I like the idea. Will also prevent players from suiciding in order to resurrect at the camp if they are too far away from the battlefield. I do it myself though

Ardeni

Yes

Sunrock wrote: »

There is already a "time penalty" for dying in PvP in Cyrodiil. It's called travel time.

Regarding forward camps. Well you can't really put them on the front line can you? Well you can but if you really need to use them you don't want to have them on the front line as enemy will just become happy and farm the crap out of you every time you spawn if not some noob come and burn the tent that is and stop the AP farming.

Also if the enemy use allot of forward camps you just have to adjust your tactics to it and burn then down if you don't want to camp them to farm AP.

PS: Half the time the tent bugs out anyway and cant be used at all. Best they fix the tents so they work as intended before anything else is done.

Actually, you can prevent the camp bug 100% of the times if you just stand still for a couple of seconds and wait for the camp icon to show on the maps. Also, while it is true that you can't put the camp into front line, you can easily put it 5-10s away from your enemies. For example in keeps, you just need to put it into the other side of the inner keep - or even outside the wall on that side. If anybody bothers to destroy it, you just put it up again. Not a big deal with the small cost of it. Besides, when the enemies charge at you 5s after ressing, you don't even get anything from killing them (as you shouldn't, since otherwise it would lead to farming).

Sunrock wrote: »

Ardeni wrote: »

Fanfaron wrote: »

Here is video about fighting inside unsieged keep, not about forward camps, but it's same, I think

[snip]

This is pretty much what I meant. I'm a part of a small guild myself and usually we end up having to clear the keeps for hours before anything happens (we either leave or we're lucky with the destruction of the camps and actually get the castle). If we leave and let the enemy keep their beloved keep after facing the 94th reincarnation of xXsuperawesomeplayerXx, is it really their victory, or ours? Whatever the case, the keep is theirs.

How small is your group? 2-3 players if it takes hours to clear the keeps. An empty keep takes about 10 minutes to clear for 6 players including braking the walls/doors. If the keep is defended by players it really depends but you have no problem fighting 2:1 in this game. Problems starting at 3:1 ..... Asuming you're all V12 by now.

My group is usually around 5-10 players and it indeed takes us around 10 minutes to take a group by ourselves with no defense. What I was talking about, though, was clearing the dozens of defending players out. You can wipe them dozens of times with no reward since they just come back again and again from the camp nearby. Even when the camp is destroyed, a new one is usually up within a minute. After you destroy the new one(s), the enemies are wise enough to change the location and with considerably lesser numbers you can't really start looking all the lands around the keeps just to find their camp if it's not inside (or straight outside) the keep.

Cody

No

NOOOOOOOO. camps are not cheap, they cost 7,200AP each. meaning, you want only 3? spend 21,000AP. and the huge distance you must travel is penalizing enough. not to mention you can get ganked on the way. imagine waiting 60 seconds, you finally spawn, have to go a VERY long distance, halfway there, you get jumped by 4 guys, then you have to wait 60 seconds again. I don't want to be watching a spawn timer half the time, I want to actually PLAY

Zintair

No, but there should be a downtime to place a new forward camp after one is destroyed nearby.

I am always in favor of making death "matter". In its current incarnation that is not even close to the case. There is little penalty for dying if you were smart and used a forward camp.

I prefer a MUCH more harsh reality of DAOC having to spawn backj at your border keep and teleport back or wait for a rez type of thing.

However 99% of the people on these forums would freak out and unsub.

That being said a respawn on forward camps would be something that could be done and I think should be done.

It wouldn't be such a big deal if people actually had something to spend AP on.... but there isn't so INFINITE FORWARD CAMPS engage.

Tintinabula

No

Im on the fence. It might be a key in reducing lag. RIFT had a short 30 second timer? Basically if you couldn't win the fight and your rezz spot was close..you werent able to stream in repeatedly. The distance in game sort of acts a s a timer anyways.

Ardeni

Yes

NookyZooky wrote: »

NOOOOOOOO. camps are not cheap, they cost 7,200AP each. meaning, you want only 3? spend 21,000AP. and the huge distance you must travel is penalizing enough. not to mention you can get ganked on the way. imagine waiting 60 seconds, you finally spawn, have to go a VERY long distance, halfway there, you get jumped by 4 guys, then you have to wait 60 seconds again. I don't want to be watching a spawn timer half the time, I want to actually PLAY

You can get 7,200 AP in 5 minutes with a small group of good players. Also, given the number of defenders they probably have tens of millions of AP at their disposal, especially in the more popular campaigns. Given that not everybody wants to use their AP on camps, the estimated amount of camps which you would have to destroy in order for the AP to run out would perhaps be around 100-1000 (even my small group could buy 400-500 camps with our AP). Even if you would destroy one camp per minute, it would take hours for them to run out. And realistically you can't destroy or find them that fast.

hammer_fella

No, but there should be a downtime to place a new forward camp after one is destroyed nearby.

Firstly, the issue as you've described it is with camps and not with player revivals, so a time penalty after dying is clearly not the answer. Therefore I chose option 3 for the following reasons:

If you can afford to place multiple camps within, let's say conservatively, a 60-120 sec cooldown window, then you clearly have AP to spend and clearly you are dying and immediately reviving with such frequency as to dramatically influence the course of battle. If your opponents have less available AP you will always win in this scenario, whether attacking or defending, because your forces will effectively never diminish.

If an entire squad of players is wiped in such a short span of time, they should be appropriately punished for their failure, not allowed to endlessly revive as if they'd not suffered a loss at all.

SwampRaider

No

you are joking right?

those Forward camps are AP sinks and bug out half of the time

Nozfardu

Yes

Simple answer 60 seconds before you can respawn. Although being rezzed with a soul gem can be done immediately

SwampRaider

No

Nozfardu wrote: »

Simple answer 60 seconds before you can respawn. Although being rezzed with a soul gem can be done immediately

60 seconds is too long. especially in this generation of I WANT IT NOW!! people.