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Fighter's Guild: This needs to be equivalent of Mage's guild to magicka users.
Thejollygreenone
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As it stand's Stamina based dps builds could use a lot of help. This has been recognized and a dev-thread has been made addressing some changes. That's certainly a good start. I'd like to take that a step further.
What I propose is to change the way that the fighter's guild is set up to make it's abilities primarily fully-usable against non-undead/daedra.
Of course the fighter's guild still was designed to fill this niche and it still can, I merely propose that most of the added effects we see from fighters guild abilities that only apply to undead/daedra should also apply to every other type of enemy in a less potent form. Here are my thoughts on some of the changes that could be made to serve this purpose:
Silver Bolts: This ability is actually pretty well off where it is due to it's simplicity. The base ability could remain the same, maybe could do to lose some of that high stamina cost although the medium armor changes will help marginally.
The morph Silver Shards is also pretty good mechanically, but the damage reduction to the extra enemies hit could stand to be lessened. 67% of damage done at rank one up to 70% at max rank is what i'd like to see but that might be a bit high.
The other morph, Silver Leash has a cool idea attached to it. The one problem is that the leash is completely null against non undead/daedra, let alone against enemies immune to cc rendering the alternate function useless in most cases.
I'd propose keeping the mechanics as they are, allowing the second hit at separate stamina cost to go off against cc immune targets without the pull, and simply increase the damage of the leash by a certain amount if the enemy is undead/daedra. This would provide ranged stamina users with a cost effective stamina dump.
Circle of Protection: There's a lot wrong with this ability, and it starts with how low the soft cap for armor/resistances is, but I'll leave that be now since this isn't a dps focused ability anyway.
The Turn Undead morph makes it semi decent, maybe keep the fear or the damage for non undead/daedra and use the combination of both and maybe another effect against undead/daedra.
Ring of preservation just needs a complete overhaul. 28% health regen isn't much when the stat and softcap is so monstrously low. A direct heal would be appreciated in it's place if nothing else.
Expert Hunter: Now this ability has some potential, but is strictly usable against undead/daedra only. A simple fix would be to change all the effects of this ability and it's morph to affect all targets (lower base potency against non undead/daedra possibly), and have it simply be stronger against undead/daedra as is the theme. This ability and it's morphs alone could go a long way to getting stamina dps builds on track.
On a side note, Expert Hunter could also use a cost reduction since it only lasts 10 seconds but costs the same as something like Momentum (even this ability could use some work) which is a 20 second buff. The increase duration on daedra/undead kill is nice and all, but the ability needs to be decent without the daedra/undead bonus.
Trap Beast: This ability looked decent at first as there isn't many abilities that are even similar to it, let alone stamina based. However upon further inspection one notices the 4 seconds it takes for the trap to arm for a measly immobilize and some damage, as opposed to abilities like Volcanic Rune and Manifestation of Terror which provide hard CCs instantly.
Reduce the cost of this ability and it's morphs, as well as taking away the arming time except on the rearming morph for the second arming and this ability would be fine.
Edited by Thejollygreenone on 22 June 2014 00:01 What I propose is to change the way that the fighter's guild is set up to make it's abilities primarily fully-usable against non-undead/daedra.
Of course the fighter's guild still was designed to fill this niche and it still can, I merely propose that most of the added effects we see from fighters guild abilities that only apply to undead/daedra should also apply to every other type of enemy in a less potent form. Here are my thoughts on some of the changes that could be made to serve this purpose:
Silver Bolts: This ability is actually pretty well off where it is due to it's simplicity. The base ability could remain the same, maybe could do to lose some of that high stamina cost although the medium armor changes will help marginally.
The morph Silver Shards is also pretty good mechanically, but the damage reduction to the extra enemies hit could stand to be lessened. 67% of damage done at rank one up to 70% at max rank is what i'd like to see but that might be a bit high.
The other morph, Silver Leash has a cool idea attached to it. The one problem is that the leash is completely null against non undead/daedra, let alone against enemies immune to cc rendering the alternate function useless in most cases.
I'd propose keeping the mechanics as they are, allowing the second hit at separate stamina cost to go off against cc immune targets without the pull, and simply increase the damage of the leash by a certain amount if the enemy is undead/daedra. This would provide ranged stamina users with a cost effective stamina dump.
Circle of Protection: There's a lot wrong with this ability, and it starts with how low the soft cap for armor/resistances is, but I'll leave that be now since this isn't a dps focused ability anyway.
The Turn Undead morph makes it semi decent, maybe keep the fear or the damage for non undead/daedra and use the combination of both and maybe another effect against undead/daedra.
Ring of preservation just needs a complete overhaul. 28% health regen isn't much when the stat and softcap is so monstrously low. A direct heal would be appreciated in it's place if nothing else.
Expert Hunter: Now this ability has some potential, but is strictly usable against undead/daedra only. A simple fix would be to change all the effects of this ability and it's morph to affect all targets (lower base potency against non undead/daedra possibly), and have it simply be stronger against undead/daedra as is the theme. This ability and it's morphs alone could go a long way to getting stamina dps builds on track.
On a side note, Expert Hunter could also use a cost reduction since it only lasts 10 seconds but costs the same as something like Momentum (even this ability could use some work) which is a 20 second buff. The increase duration on daedra/undead kill is nice and all, but the ability needs to be decent without the daedra/undead bonus.
Trap Beast: This ability looked decent at first as there isn't many abilities that are even similar to it, let alone stamina based. However upon further inspection one notices the 4 seconds it takes for the trap to arm for a measly immobilize and some damage, as opposed to abilities like Volcanic Rune and Manifestation of Terror which provide hard CCs instantly.
Reduce the cost of this ability and it's morphs, as well as taking away the arming time except on the rearming morph for the second arming and this ability would be fine.
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Tobiz✭✭✭I concur with the general concept that stamina builds need more synergies like magicka has and I believe it is fundamental in the disparity between the playstiles.
I do not agree to all your suggestions though and you forgot the passives.
The mages guild passive and active skills are mostly applicable to ALL magicka based builds. See Might of the guild and Magicka controller and you dont see many stick wielders without the hovering ball of light.
The Fighters guild are highly situational with the daedra and undead limitation and pretty weak at that.
The mages guild skills fit with a Mage/Sorcerer role no matter what, but not everyone wants to be a Hunter/Vampire Slayer role.
Yes I do believe it is very important to keep a close eye to the RP point of view in a RPG.
The dawnbreaker morph is the single synergy we gain here, and it scales with...? I dunno, its magicka damage, but some say stamina.
The trap - 4 sec arm. Check the Rune.
Evil hunter - Great, but only on daedra.
I could go on, but I leave work soon...
Im all for having a difference in the stiles but not when it makes the skills stamina really really bad.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭I concur with the general concept that stamina builds need more synergies like magicka has and I believe it is fundamental in the disparity between the playstiles.
I do not agree to all your suggestions though and you forgot the passives.
The mages guild passive and active skills are mostly applicable to ALL magicka based builds. See Might of the guild and Magicka controller and you dont see many stick wielders without the hovering ball of light.
The Fighters guild are highly situational with the daedra and undead limitation and pretty weak at that.
The mages guild skills fit with a Mage/Sorcerer role no matter what, but not everyone wants to be a Hunter/Vampire Slayer role.
Yes I do believe it is very important to keep a close eye to the RP point of view in a RPG.
The dawnbreaker morph is the single synergy we gain here, and it scales with...? I dunno, its magicka damage, but some say stamina.
The trap - 4 sec arm. Check the Rune.
Evil hunter - Great, but only on daedra.
I could go on, but I leave work soon...
Im all for having a difference in the stiles but not when it makes the skills stamina really really bad.
Dawnbreaker does scale off of stamina, but not weapon power. It's stamina and spell power that the Fighters Guild ult bases its damage off of.
Furthermore, Ieft out passives purposefully, and if you noticed I left out the ultimate too. Basically I didn't want to make the post any more ridiculously long
Basically what I'm reading from your comment though that you pretty much agree with me on all fronts except for from an RP standpoint.
So not everyone wants to be a Hunter/Vampire slayer role, that certainly wasn't what I intended when making my Nightblade Bow wielding Bosmer, but if I can find an ability in that tree that contributes to my overall goal of dps I'm probably going to use it. That's fine. But to let that RP restriction exclude you from ANY of the possibly good abilities from that tree? Maybe that's why I could never get into RP ^.^
My thoughts are until Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood skill trees come out, then Fighters Guild abilities are the perfect place to start creating some stamina-dps synergy.Im all for having a difference in the stiles but not when it makes the skills stamina really really bad.
If you mean not when it makes the skills stamina dpsers use really really bad, then yeah. Of course I agree, that's why I think they need to be changed to be useful to the general community if they so choose. That was the point of this thread 0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭The sad part with this thread is that we're the only ones who seem to think that stamina melee need more synergies.
The developer response in this matter is disheartening. I hope that the 1.2.3 patch was just a first babystep and that a complete overhaul of stamina synergies are in 1.2.X.
Its not just the fighters guild skills, its the armor sets that are lackluster or completely broken, ultimates that base on magicka stats, physical dots from different skills dont stack, or dots that cant be applied to more then one target.
Dont know about the rest of you but I feel a bit cranky trying to beta test a game while paying for it.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.1
