Zenimax: cast spells on the move + limit on max targets = boring steamroller serg

Jarnhand

Once the serg gets up to a certain number, it becomes a mindless boring skilless moving blob.
No tactic needed, just a mindless mind-numbing mashing of buttons, steamrolling everything.
And since there is a cap on max targets for skills, a lower number group can not stop a bigger serg. Only chance is MAYBE oil...
Highest numbers = win.
Its not fun for either side, the serg winners even gets bored after a bit.

Sorry Zenimax but this is recipe for fail. Please do something, tactics should = win.

shanersimms_ESO

This is the problem with AOE caps which the community at large voted against.

Lord_Draevan

Without AoE caps: Vast majority of players would just spam AoE.
With AoE caps: Players just turtle together to minimise damage.

Either way MMO PvP is always full of such tactics/exploits. With or without AoE caps is fine by me, people are gonna look for the cheapest way to win either way.

Gravord

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Without AoE caps: Vast majority of players would just spam AoE.
With AoE caps: Players just turtle together to minimise damage.

Remove aoe cap and balance/reduce aoe dmg to keep it in line.
Currently aoe and st are too close in dmg output to each other to make effective use from st in fights having even low numbers of ppl. As example: Impulse crit around 300, Dk Flame Whip (which is best dp st ability) hit 500-550 on crit. Not even twice more than spamable aoe (which happen to be also very cheap on magicka cost), obviously most dps players will go for Impulse as fights 1vs1 when Whip could be better option happen very rare.
Toning down aoe dmg by 20-25% from current numbers would create more balance between aoe-st. And also it would encourage more groups to play small scale (4-6 man group) on 2-3 st build dps assisting same target for fast kills instead running only 20+ man Impulse/Barrier spamming blobs.

Lowbei

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Without AoE caps: Vast majority of players would just spam AoE.
With AoE caps: Players just turtle together to minimise damage.

Either way MMO PvP is always full of such tactics/exploits. With or without AoE caps is fine by me, people are gonna look for the cheapest way to win either way.

... before the ae caps were known, most players were neither spamming impulse in trains, nor were they zergballing.

before ae caps were known, aka ninja added with the lie of "its supposed to be like this", was during beta, when pvp in cyrodiil was good.

the rainbow trains and zerg balling are the direct result of the ae caps, which are also the cause of the massive lag which magically appeared when the caps went in. coincidence? lol

Lord_Draevan

Lowbei wrote: »

... before the ae caps were known, most players were neither spamming impulse in trains, nor were they zergballing.

before ae caps were known, aka ninja added with the lie of "its supposed to be like this", was during beta, when pvp in cyrodiil was good.

the rainbow trains and zerg balling are the direct result of the ae caps, which are also the cause of the massive lag which magically appeared when the caps went in. coincidence? lol

I've only noticed Impulse zergs recently, the AoE post was several months ago.

Lowbei

ahhhh

jeradlub17_ESO

Gravord wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Without AoE caps: Vast majority of players would just spam AoE.
With AoE caps: Players just turtle together to minimise damage.

Remove aoe cap and balance/reduce aoe dmg to keep it in line.
Currently aoe and st are too close in dmg output to each other to make effective use from st in fights having even low numbers of ppl. As example: Impulse crit around 300, Dk Flame Whip (which is best dp st ability) hit 500-550 on crit. Not even twice more than spamable aoe (which happen to be also very cheap on magicka cost), obviously most dps players will go for Impulse as fights 1vs1 when Whip could be better option happen very rare.
Toning down aoe dmg by 20-25% from current numbers would create more balance between aoe-st. And also it would encourage more groups to play small scale (4-6 man group) on 2-3 st build dps assisting same target for fast kills instead running only 20+ man Impulse/Barrier spamming blobs.

Broken logic in that post. You obviously never played DAoC where pbaoe was the highest damage type due to the fact it is a short range damage cast by a cloth caster. Now ESO kind of jacked that up here with the everyone can use every weapon bs but it is no reason to jack casters out of the only decent aoe they have access to. There is no good aoe in sorc skill lines. Any reduction to that damage would make it useless as it is already lower than your DK abilities as it is. Single target should never be double aoe by simple default, it just isn't logical as ranges need to be considered as well.

Gravord

jeradlub17_ESO wrote: »

There is no good aoe in sorc skill lines. Any reduction to that damage would make it useless as it is already lower than your DK abilities as it is. Single target should never be double aoe by simple default, it just isn't logical as ranges need to be considered as well.

Neither in dk lines, best aoe comes from destro staff.
You saying range need to be consider but best dk st dmg abilities are equal or lower range than Impulse, so cant see your point here. Care to elaborate?

xaraan

The group I run with takes on much larger forces all the time and wins, in open field and in keeps. It's do-able, you just have to be organized, work well together, etc. But I should point out that there should not be an ability for three people to wipe out fifty just cuz the fifty is a zerg. Numbers are part of war, the US didn't land a group of ten troops on D-day for that very reason. I don't get this argument constantly that something should be this way so someone can fight a dozen people at once (saw the same arguments when vampires were getting nerfed).

Although I do agree with the AoE caps being the wrong way to handle it. The better way would have been to nerf many AoE's. If a player would ever consider using an AoE to fight one or two opponents over a single target spell, then there is something wrong with the AoE's doing too much damage. Single target should far and away do more damage. If you can hit ten players with 350 damage or one with 400, which will you usually use? If something is hitting that many players it should do at least half what a single target would or have it do set damage to area and divide damage by amount of people it is hitting.

joshisanonymous

Siege.

Hell, I've plopped down fire ballistas during open field fights at times. It's awesome having nice clumped up targets.

I do think it would be great if there wasn't a cap for any skills, though, but I believe this is an unavoidable limitation due to latency in non-tab targetted PvP where 2000 players need to be tracked and double checked at any given time. My guess is this is the same reason GW2 has an AoE cap.

Dudis

No AoE caps would force people to spread out, thus making AoE less effective.

The irony...


I will say though that I think they would need to add damage falloff (less damage the further from the center of the AoE you are) were they to remove caps.


Honestly though, I think the horse is dead by now.

Nazon_Katts

One could be under the impression they're purposefully driving players away from what should have been the very center of this game. But frankly, I found the overall pvp population to be rather low anyways, even when campaigns were fuller and with higher caps.

Furthermore one could be led to believe, this is just in preperation to shut it down entirely, to assure there's no perceptible outcry from those who are left. So the implementation of arenas will be welcomed with fanfare of publicity by everyone else, so they can put a postive spin to it all.

But it's probably just another case of ZOS reacting slower than needed.

quakedawg_ESO

Dudis wrote: »

No AoE caps would force people to spread out, thus making AoE less effective.

The irony...

What is preventing people from spreading out now? I seriously don't understand the complaints of AOE causing such heart ache.

Regarding the PvP population, I do agree that with this game, the majority are casual PvE'ers. A good chunk are trying large scale PvP for the first time. Just a hunch from reading these forums.

Gundorf_GA

quakedawg_ESO wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

No AoE caps would force people to spread out, thus making AoE less effective.

The irony...

What is preventing people from spreading out now? I seriously don't understand the complaints of AOE causing such heart ache.

Regarding the PvP population, I do agree that with this game, the majority are casual PvE'ers. A good chunk are trying large scale PvP for the first time. Just a hunch from reading these forums.

As has been pointed out countless times, AoE caps encourage zergs to clump because they distribute the capped number of targets. You have 40 people stacked in a blob and your opponents can only hit 6 random targets per ability

Shaun98ca2

quakedawg_ESO wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

No AoE caps would force people to spread out, thus making AoE less effective.

The irony...

What is preventing people from spreading out now? I seriously don't understand the complaints of AOE causing such heart ache.

Regarding the PvP population, I do agree that with this game, the majority are casual PvE'ers. A good chunk are trying large scale PvP for the first time. Just a hunch from reading these forums.

Nothing is preventing people from spreading out. The issue is being grouped up really close is actually more advantageous due to AE healing versus AE damage.

If you have clump of 100 players and 3 of you go to attack the clump theres 2 scenarios...

1. AOE with NO caps those 3 people wipe the 100 people in a quick swift blast of AOE on them and they die having had no chance cause they were clumped up.

2. AOE WITH caps you attempt to blast them MAYBE killing 6 people leaving the other 94 very capable of killing you while you had no chance to kill them.

There is arguments to having caps and no caps both which no matter how the argument ends its a lose lose situation.

Having NO AOE caps means choke points become next to impossible to get through against a well set up group.

Having Caps means you get the big blobs of people running around.

ZOS's attempt to answer the issue was siege weapons but those are just woefully underpowered after the 1st shot they spread out and your screwed anyways. But making them a 1st shot is cheap as well.

joshisanonymous

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Nothing is preventing people from spreading out. The issue is being grouped up really close is actually more advantageous due to AE healing versus AE damage.

If you have clump of 100 players and 3 of you go to attack the clump theres 2 scenarios...

1. AOE with NO caps those 3 people wipe the 100 people in a quick swift blast of AOE on them and they die having had no chance cause they were clumped up.

2. AOE WITH caps you attempt to blast them MAYBE killing 6 people leaving the other 94 very capable of killing you while you had no chance to kill them.

There is arguments to having caps and no caps both which no matter how the argument ends its a lose lose situation.

Having NO AOE caps means choke points become next to impossible to get through against a well set up group.

Having Caps means you get the big blobs of people running around.

ZOS's attempt to answer the issue was siege weapons but those are just woefully underpowered after the 1st shot they spread out and your screwed anyways. But making them a 1st shot is cheap as well.

The point is that it provides a skill cap and promotes paying attention even in zergs, though.

100 people who pay attention will never die to 3, regardless of whether there's an AoE limit or not.

100 people who are just warm bodies in a blob of zerg will often die to 3 if there is no AoE limit.

100 people who are just warm bodies in a blob of zerg will never die to 3 if there is no AoE limit. (This is what we have, and the only counter for it is siege at the moment. It's basically set up so that larger numbers mean you have an exponentially higher chance at success, instead of just a generally better chance at success.)

But yeah, I don't expect to see the cap change. So, what we're left with is relying on siege and trying to draw people away from their blobs in order to gradually whittle them down.

quakedawg_ESO

Gundorf_GA wrote: »

As has been pointed out countless times, AoE caps encourage zergs to clump because they distribute the capped number of targets. You have 40 people stacked in a blob and your opponents can only hit 6 random targets per ability

Totally understand that line of thought. But people apparently are still being obliterated while holding hands. I'd beg for you to clump up if I was driving such a train. I'm too lazy to actually chase each of you.

Good discussion I just want to know the thought process from different perspectives. Having played both GW2 and Daoc, I've experienced both cap and no cap limitations.

galiumb16_ESO

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Without AoE caps: Vast majority of players would just spam AoE.

Yes but they couldn't do it in a blob without opening themselves up to counter bomb regardless of their size.

There is a difference between a coordinated bomb group and everyone stacking and mapping impulse to their forward key. AoE cap has always reduced quality of play because it removes the need for proper positioning and the need to pay attention.

Bashev

Gravord wrote: »

Remove aoe cap and balance/reduce aoe dmg to keep it in line.
Currently aoe and st are too close in dmg output to each other to make effective use from st in fights having even low numbers of ppl. As example: Impulse crit around 300, Dk Flame Whip (which is best dp st ability) hit 500-550 on crit. Not even twice more than spamable aoe (which happen to be also very cheap on magicka cost), obviously most dps players will go for Impulse as fights 1vs1 when Whip could be better option happen very rare.
Toning down aoe dmg by 20-25% from current numbers would create more balance between aoe-st. And also it would encourage more groups to play small scale (4-6 man group) on 2-3 st build dps assisting same target for fast kills instead running only 20+ man Impulse/Barrier spamming blobs.

I like your idea that the damage of AoE spells should be lower than single target ones. The funny fact is that impulse cannot be blocked and I take more damage from impulse than snipe or crystal fragments when I block them. In this game either you are in the train or you hold the block and try to kill some players with instant cast skills. That's why aoe are preferable - they hit more targets (generate more ultimate) and they do more damage from a single target skill which is blocked.

belugian

the only aoes that should be instant are the gtaoes in my opinion.