Balancing the game - Where do you draw the line?

Okspaghetti

I understand that you want to make the game as 'balanced' as possible, but when will the changes stop? I feel like every other game, as soon as something is considered 'OP' it is instantly put on the agenda to be change...

There is a way to counter almost every tested imba strat.
Take oil pots, so many people are complaining on how OP they are.
How about you put purge on your skill bar?
DKs with standard - Move away from them.
NB spamming stealth - volcanic rune.
Mage blinking away - let him go.
Mage blinking through groups - soul strike.
DK reflecting - healing staff.
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Caltrops.
Invis Bats - Pulsar spam.
Pulsar spam - Negate

Please correct me if I'm wrong or post your counters. It will make me a better pvper.

Anyway, i don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to create a huge list of counters, but I'm sure they are there for any problem you come across.

xMovingTarget

Best counter from this community

DKs with standard - Nurrf the damn thing!
NB spamming stealth - Nurrf the damn thing!
Mage blinking away - Nurrf the damn thing!
Mage blinking through groups - Nurrf the damn thing!
DK reflecting - Nurrf the damn thing!
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Nurrf the damn thing!
Invis Bats - Nurrf the damn thing!
Pulsar spam - Nurrf the damn thing!

I put it right for you.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Okspaghetti wrote: »

There is a way to counter almost every tested imba strat.
Take oil pots, so many people are complaining on how OP they are.
How about you put purge on your skill bar?
DKs with standard - Move away from them.
NB spamming stealth - volcanic rune.
Mage blinking away - let him go.
Mage blinking through groups - soul strike.
DK reflecting - healing staff.
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Caltrops.
Invis Bats - Pulsar spam.
Pulsar spam - Negate

Just for curious, you play as sorcerer right?

Okspaghetti

Yes but leveling a DK&Templar

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Yes but leveling a DK&Templar

Ok.

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Super tank sword and shield blocking

Really? Who in the hell can even complain about this. Super tank 1h+shield is the worst PvP option even in 1v1. Heavy armor is garbage right now.

Nijjion

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Just for curious, you play as sorcerer right?

Haha you can so tell. But how is letting him go a counter?

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

The real problem is people really don't understand balance. Most people yell balance as a knee jerk reaction to, well, getting stomped on. The reaction to oil was probably caused by un organized groups who kept trying to take down people trying to farm AP, and just weren't coordinated enough to handle it. The list goes on like that.

For example, many people are complaining about DK's when maybe they should just be looking at LA and staves, but because their knee jerk reaction is DK's themselves, well, we get a dozen topics about them (replace DK with sorc as well).

Balance is down by slightly TWEAKING numbers in most cases, and not just from whatever is "OP", but tweaking numbers from ones that aren't as strong. People really under estimate what a minor tweak can really do.

As a side note, I think a lot of people want their class/build to be able to take on any other class/build, but that's not something that happens, ever, in any game. No one single class should be able to beat every other class. Why? Because thats bad balance (And no sorcerers and DK's don't currently beat every class 1v1). Some builds should and do loose to others and that is how it should be.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Pulsar spam - Negate

Use an ultimate for a guy spamming the '1' key? That's a setup for a nerf argument, but I'd just streak through them.

Dudis

There are some things that are/were legitimately OP, old Batswarm spam, Talons with no immunity, bugged unbreakable CC etc...

But yeah, people cry too much. There's a counter to pretty much everything.

frwinters_ESO

When ti comes to balance everyone on these forums thinks they are the expert. Does anyone not think that maybe ZOS has programs that monitor class activity, damage outputs, what classes are more popular, what abilities are being used more than others etc etc? Perhaps they have a formula for making sure there are balanced abilities in the game? That if they see one class or particular weapon line being favored over another that it deserves a look?

I am sure ZOS sees all this behind the scene, plus at times they listen to player feedback. Yes everyone may scream nerf nerf nerf, but ZOS isnt going to just nerf abilities less they are in fact warranted by there own data.

Cogo

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

The real problem is people really don't understand balance. Most people yell balance as a knee jerk reaction to, well, getting stomped on. The reaction to oil was probably caused by un organized groups who kept trying to take down people trying to farm AP, and just weren't coordinated enough to handle it. The list goes on like that.

For example, many people are complaining about DK's when maybe they should just be looking at LA and staves, but because their knee jerk reaction is DK's themselves, well, we get a dozen topics about them (replace DK with sorc as well).

Balance is down by slightly TWEAKING numbers in most cases, and not just from whatever is "OP", but tweaking numbers from ones that aren't as strong. People really under estimate what a minor tweak can really do.

As a side note, I think a lot of people want their class/build to be able to take on any other class/build, but that's not something that happens, ever, in any game. No one single class should be able to beat every other class. Why? Because thats bad balance (And no sorcerers and DK's don't currently beat every class 1v1). Some builds should and do loose to others and that is how it should be.

Outstanding!

Why the hell cant I write this well.

Might not only blame people, though they should start to think longer then only their own char. For quite a few years, "Balancing" has been to buff buff buff.

ESO is doing the perfect thing. tweaking. And they take their time = they check it first against a bigger picture.

Cogo

Dudis wrote: »

There are some things that are/were legitimately OP, old Batswarm spam, Talons with no immunity, bugged unbreakable CC etc...

But yeah, people cry too much. There's a counter to pretty much everything.

Remember there was a guy who quit the game after they fixed vampires OP?

His post should be around......

Avidus

Maybe they should just add in another 30 skill lines.
That way it would take so much longer for people to find the OP build.
And when they do that, add in another 30 skill lines.

This way you just make it take longer for OP builds to be made, and increase the opportunity for more than 1 OP guild.

Alternatively, you could ignore what I just said because its the kind of thing that damages your brain.

Balancing never ends. It would be more correct to call it juggling. Every now and then you are gonna drop the ball, just gotta pick it back up and try again.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

Avidus wrote: »

Balancing never ends. It would be more correct to call it juggling. Every now and then you are gonna drop the ball, just gotta pick it back up and try again.

Sometimes you even miss a ball and it smacks you in the face. Do it often enough and everyone comes to know you're terrible at juggling and you're left alone still picking up the ball you dropped.

Balancing is an incredibly difficult thing to do in an mmo, but do it wrong once and you risk destroying the game forever.

HazardousNovex

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Super tank sword and shield blocking

Really? Who in the hell can even complain about this. Super tank 1h+shield is the worst PvP option even in 1v1. Heavy armor is garbage right now.

False. I am one of four tanks in my guild group, we use an armour variation of 5 heavy armour pieces and two light armour pieces and we literally never die, Heavy armour is so good that we can take out entire zergs while still keeping at least 50% health. Just today I got a 278 kill streak, if that doesn't prove to you that heavy armour is just as good as light armour, then I don't know what will.

Dudis

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

I don't know about that, it might be medium armor thats the worst. Either way I would at least say it's a close call between heavy/medium.

There shouldn't even be a debate on LA being the best, because the simple truth right now is, that it is.

Teevesnacks

Okspaghetti wrote: »

I understand that you want to make the game as 'balanced' as possible, but when will the changes stop? I feel like every other game, as soon as something is considered 'OP' it is instantly put on the agenda to be change...

There is a way to counter almost every tested imba strat.
Take oil pots, so many people are complaining on how OP they are.
How about you put purge on your skill bar?
DKs with standard - Move away from them.
NB spamming stealth - volcanic rune.
Mage blinking away - let him go.
Mage blinking through groups - soul strike.
DK reflecting - healing staff.
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Caltrops.
Invis Bats - Pulsar spam.
Pulsar spam - Negate

Please correct me if I'm wrong or post your counters. It will make me a better pvper.

Anyway, i don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to create a huge list of counters, but I'm sure they are there for any problem you come across.

Way too much effort, players want to be able to counter everything with the 6 abilities they have in front of them, 12 if you count weapon swapping but that's still too much effort.................

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

Hahahahahahaha I could not answer better :-). Anyway, I think he was trolling me, only a blind couldn't see how underpower heavy armor is ATM.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

I don't know about that, it might be medium armor thats the worst. Either way I would at least say it's a close call between heavy/medium.

There shouldn't even be a debate on LA being the best, because the simple truth right now is, that it is.

Nah, medium armor has more utilities for PvP. All we know that if you want magicka build = light armor and if you want stamina build = medium armor. And magicka build >>>> stamina build. Heavy armor doesn't have any chance in PvP.

HazardousNovex

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

My guild does not run around in a Zerg 'ball', we hardly have enough players to call it a Zerg. I could care less if you don't believe me, but light armour doesn't do *** when you're being attacked by groups with double or triple your numbers.

Dudis

HazardousNovex wrote: »

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

My guild does not run around in a Zerg 'ball', we hardly have enough players to call it a Zerg. I could care less if you don't believe me, but light armour doesn't do *** when you're being attacked by groups with double or triple your numbers.

It's not hard to go way beyond the softcap even in light armor by just popping an ability (DK Spiked Armor for example). Armor is just a number and it has a cap. Heavy armor doesn't do anything "extra" for you other than some very lackluster passives.

Taking into consideration that 5L/2H can reach said cap and has MUCH better passives, heavy armor just isn't worth it.

Sasky

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

When ti comes to balance everyone on these forums thinks they are the expert. Does anyone not think that maybe ZOS has programs that monitor class activity, damage outputs, what classes are more popular, what abilities are being used more than others etc etc? Perhaps they have a formula for making sure there are balanced abilities in the game? That if they see one class or particular weapon line being favored over another that it deserves a look?

I am sure ZOS sees all this behind the scene, plus at times they listen to player feedback. Yes everyone may scream nerf nerf nerf, but ZOS isnt going to just nerf abilities less they are in fact warranted by there own data.

I'd hope so, but there haven't been any indications. Their current class adjustment seems mainly knee-jerk reactions to obvious bugs or enough community noise generated. (And perception can count for a lot.)

If you have data on every single skill, set used, armor type, you should be doing constant tweaks this early -- change cost or damage or whatever every patch. Both buffs and reductions. Changes should be kept to small amounts, like max 5% of total cost/power/duration. If something is largely out of balance, iterations of this will get it balanced in say a month, which is how long it's been taking them to wield a nerf hammer anyways.

Most importantly, something iterative like this reduces nerf impact (imagine someone QQing over 2% increase in spell cost) and shows that ZOS is actively monitoring numbers and balancing.

Malmai

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Best counter from this community

DKs with standard - Nurrf the damn thing!
NB spamming stealth - Nurrf the damn thing!
Mage blinking away - Nurrf the damn thing!
Mage blinking through groups - Nurrf the damn thing!
DK reflecting - Nurrf the damn thing!
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Nurrf the damn thing!
Invis Bats - Nurrf the damn thing!
Pulsar spam - Nurrf the damn thing!

I put it right for you.

Yep kinda sick of "nerf" this "nerf" that ppl just cant play i guess.

galiumb16_ESO

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

When ti comes to balance everyone on these forums thinks they are the expert. Does anyone not think that maybe ZOS has programs that monitor class activity, damage outputs, what classes are more popular, what abilities are being used more than others etc etc? Perhaps they have a formula for making sure there are balanced abilities in the game? That if they see one class or particular weapon line being favored over another that it deserves a look?

I am sure ZOS sees all this behind the scene, plus at times they listen to player feedback. Yes everyone may scream nerf nerf nerf, but ZOS isnt going to just nerf abilities less they are in fact warranted by there own data.

Numbers without context mean nothing and the people giving the context are the QQ crowd that are too stupid or lazy to bother looking for counters before they come to the forum to cry about something.

In my opinion game after game is being destroyed by gaming company's inability to do this part right, so I think it is fair to say ZOS is unlikely to get it right given how much they keep getting wrong. Because people are stupid and lazy the game just gets dumbed down patch after patch until all the competitive folks leave out of boredom and what you have left are crappy leaders and a bunch of sheep following them for the most unimaginative form of PvP possible.

Cogo

HazardousNovex wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Super tank sword and shield blocking

Really? Who in the hell can even complain about this. Super tank 1h+shield is the worst PvP option even in 1v1. Heavy armor is garbage right now.

False. I am one of four tanks in my guild group, we use an armour variation of 5 heavy armour pieces and two light armour pieces and we literally never die, Heavy armour is so good that we can take out entire zergs while still keeping at least 50% health. Just today I got a 278 kill streak, if that doesn't prove to you that heavy armour is just as good as light armour, then I don't know what will.

I second this. I am one of 3 Vet tanks in our guild. 2 DK, both with 5 heavy and 2 MEDIUM. Our 3d tank is templar, and he doesn't even understand the hype about templars.

We managed to do 4! of the Undaunted Achievements 2 days ago. Heavy tank, night blade damage/healer hybrid, Templar healer and Sorc lightning damage.

For those who don't know, the undaunted achievements you get for doing specific Vet dungeons on a TIMER.

I see no problem with heavy armor and I tank good enough.

I want to add, we are by no standard an elite guild. We are normal players.

I have asked several times, but no one answers. WHAT is wrong with heavy armor for tanks? I used very well 1-50, and ok, at vet level it because HARDER, but so what? Should be harder at Vet level.

Can someone tell me what is wrong with Heavy armor on a tank?

Shaun98ca2

Cogo wrote: »

HazardousNovex wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Okspaghetti wrote: »

Super tank sword and shield blocking

Really? Who in the hell can even complain about this. Super tank 1h+shield is the worst PvP option even in 1v1. Heavy armor is garbage right now.

False. I am one of four tanks in my guild group, we use an armour variation of 5 heavy armour pieces and two light armour pieces and we literally never die, Heavy armour is so good that we can take out entire zergs while still keeping at least 50% health. Just today I got a 278 kill streak, if that doesn't prove to you that heavy armour is just as good as light armour, then I don't know what will.

I second this. I am one of 3 Vet tanks in our guild. 2 DK, both with 5 heavy and 2 MEDIUM. Our 3d tank is templar, and he doesn't even understand the hype about templars.

We managed to do 4! of the Undaunted Achievements 2 days ago. Heavy tank, night blade damage/healer hybrid, Templar healer and Sorc lightning damage.

For those who don't know, the undaunted achievements you get for doing specific Vet dungeons on a TIMER.

I see no problem with heavy armor and I tank good enough.

I want to add, we are by no standard an elite guild. We are normal players.

I have asked several times, but no one answers. WHAT is wrong with heavy armor for tanks? I used very well 1-50, and ok, at vet level it because HARDER, but so what? Should be harder at Vet level.

Can someone tell me what is wrong with Heavy armor on a tank?

Nothing is wrong with Heavy Armor on a Tank. The community has a perception and throw around bad info to back their argument.

Its currently perceived that Light Armor is best for tanking as it increase your Magicka abilities and can reach soft cap.

Nox_Aeterna

Okspaghetti wrote: »

I understand that you want to make the game as 'balanced' as possible, but when will the changes stop? I feel like every other game, as soon as something is considered 'OP' it is instantly put on the agenda to be change...

There is a way to counter almost every tested imba strat.
Take oil pots, so many people are complaining on how OP they are.
How about you put purge on your skill bar?
DKs with standard - Move away from them.
NB spamming stealth - volcanic rune.
Mage blinking away - let him go.
Mage blinking through groups - soul strike.
DK reflecting - healing staff.
Super tank sword and shield blocking - Caltrops.
Invis Bats - Pulsar spam.
Pulsar spam - Negate

Please correct me if I'm wrong or post your counters. It will make me a better pvper.

Anyway, i don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to create a huge list of counters, but I'm sure they are there for any problem you come across.

So let me get this right , your counter to any half decent sorc , is letting them just leave any battle they want? Yeah right... im glad even the devs are not this insane considering they already nerfed BE once.

Anyway , skipping that , most builds do have weak spots , that does not mean certain skills are not in need for balance , that only means that doesnt matter how strong something is , it wont work in all situations.

Cogo

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Nothing is wrong with Heavy Armor on a Tank. The community has a perception and throw around bad info to back their argument.

Its currently perceived that Light Armor is best for tanking as it increase your Magicka abilities and can reach soft cap.

Thank you. Finally someone who says something. Dont get me wrong, I want balance, but I do not whine if its not broken. And since I tank pretty much daily as heavy tank....to hear that I am broken? Bah!

I use magika too, but dont need anything else then foodbuff and potion for it.

If light armor is best for tanking I don't give a damn about. Just that people claiming heavy tanks can not tank stuff. Um.....yeah, we can.

Zenimax proven to be quite good at balancing, so I am sure they fix if something is broken.

And yes, I am getting annoyed at all kinds of bad info. It damages the REAL bug feedbacks.

Really, thanks man.

Cogo

Dudis wrote: »

It proves that you ran around in a zergball that was larger than the enemies zergball at least.

Heavy armor is the worst armortype atm. Period.

That's great! That means when I tank stuff thats really hard as a heavy tank....and my heavy armor is crap, whats the reason for succeeding? Hmm..personal skill! You saying I am such a good player that I can tank even in the worst gear? Wooo!!

Raeder

DK and Sorc are relatively balanced now, but the Templar suffers from not being good at anything but healing, and the Nightblade is subpar right now because Stamina builds have sucked since the beginning.

I also disagree about countering Pulsar Spam. Negate has a relatively small AOE and it is stationary, and it is a 200+ cost ultimate, so it really isn't valid to say that that is a go to counter like your other examples.

But Pulsar spam isn't the problem.

The problem is that these light armor wearers have nothing to fear from what traditionally they fear in MMOs. Close combat weapon users.

Stamina builds just suck right now, and ZOS has not indicated that they will make them competitive again by changing which resources some of the class abilities use from magicka to stamina, and making it so that the block/dodge etc use magicka and stamina.

Cogo

Templar is a healing class right? Suffers from not being good at anything else?
Our guild Paladin tank V6 who tanks pretty damn well, would disagree.
Templar CLASS abilities is not as good damage as the other 3? Kinda makes sense the best healing CLASS SKILLS should have something they are not best at in their CLASS SKILLS?

Nightblades: You have seen Patch 1.2 for next week?

In any case, I am so confident in Zenimax balancing team, and the moderators/communication managers to pick up our feedback, for those who dont use the really good feedback in game, that I dont consider balancing any concern. Zenimax doing it well.....

Stamina build sucks right now.......Tons of posts about it, but still there are stamina users that somehow manages to kill small things like the raid in Craglorn.

I have heard this "close combat problem" before. Even as a pure group tank, I can do damage with my sword swing and timing it correctly, interupt with my shield is pretty damn powerful. I have 0 attack skills, and I do manage to do some melee.

Melee "problem" as I see it, and I guess that's universial, is that you need to get good at it. FAST players have an advantage here.

Maybe melee needs to get looked at, but I wonder, where the problem is. In the skills, or the player?

Also, Zenimax have on these forums confirmed they are aware of the stamina and armor problem, and will look into it.

I hope they don't buff up heavy armor, because that is NOT needed. Stamina regen is not needed either. For me as a tank. Stamina CONTROL is needed, but that is the player who has to fix that "bug"

I am not trying to be a wise4rse. But you must have seen how much Zenimax are listening here. Lets give them proper feedback, and NOT just get upset because all of a sudden you have to work for a living.