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(Bow) Poison Arrow: Is no one going to talk about how weak of a DoT this is?
Thejollygreenone
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The Idea:
The title says it all. This ability is the posterchild ability which shows how much stamina damaging abilities are underperforming. Most stamina based DoTs do a wildly underwhelming amount of damage and poison arrow is the perfect example.
To prove as such, I'll compare the ability to a class ability with similar ability: The DK ability Searing Strike
The Comparison:
To test the difference I made a fresh DK wearing no gear and using no skill points, and took a look at the ability at it's base and can determine how the damage scales via skill calculators online. Here's what i came up with:
A fresh (level 1) DK in no gear but the started sword they give Searing Strike's tooltip at rank one reads 11 damage initially and another 15 over 8.5 seconds. Poison shot's tooltip at rank one in the same gear is 11 damage initially and 5 damage over 10 seconds. So even at rank one the abilities do the same initial damage but searing strike does 3x the amount that poison arrow in the DoT portion. That's just at rank one. It gets worse.
When they rank up, searing strikes initial damage and dot portion both scale up. The DoT portion scales up just over 40% higher than its rank one damage, the initial is around 20% higher. The morphs of this ability don't raise the damage scaling any further.
When poison arrow ranks up, the initial damage increases by 25% total but the DoT portion doesn't scale at all. Why? Then, with the morphs, Venom Arrow increases its initial damage with it's rank by another total of 25% from rank one to rank four. Poison Injection doesn't scale anything from rank one to four as far as we can tell, but from what I've seen it increases the damage of the DoT by 3x. Maybe that's what scales.
The Refined Comparison A La Napkin Math:
Using the % modifiers observed and mentioned above we can roughly show what the base damage of these abilities on the control character will be at their max ranks to compare them.
Searing strike at rank one does 11 damage initially, increased by 20% gives us around 13. 15 DoT increased by 40% gives us 21 damage over 8.5 seconds. So the total base damage output of this ability with initial and DoT added together is 35.
Poison arrow at rank one does 11 damage initially and 5 damage over 10 seconds. The initial damage raises 25% pre-morph and another 25% post morph with venom arrow. That leaves us with around 14 damage rounding up for the first 25%, then around 17 damage for hte next 25%. Add that with the 5 damage from the DoT and we get 22 damage total.
So Venom Arrow gives us a total of 22 damage (Poison injection is around 26 if counted during execute phase but only 16 outside of execute phase) while Searing Strike gives us a total of 35 damage. So Searing Strike does ~37% more total damage over less time than Venom Arrow, 54% more than Poison Injection pre-execute and 26% more even during execute. Searing strike does between 26% and 54% more damage than poison arrow and it's morphs, over LESS time. Granted, it's about a second and a half less, but it's the principle of the matter. What's more in this math comparison I'm completely ignoring the fact that the damage-oriented morph of Searing Strike increases its damage further the longer it's on the enemy and can be chained when cast multiple times.
And to top it all off, Searing Strike costs less resources. Without any cost reduction passives or enchantments, Searing Strike costs 18 magicka, Venom Arrow/Poison Injection costs 32 stamina. For an ability that draws from a resource pool that is being used for alternate purposes, you'd think it'd have a lower cost than its resource counterpart, but it costs 44% MORE than the one of the resource pool that has no alternate purpose.
Conclusion:
Where's the logic here ZoS? The only single target DoT that the bow tree has available to it is at best 25% (and that's a damn execute ability during the execute phase) worse than a similar class ability that DragonKnights have available, and costs 44% more. 25-54% less damage, 44% more cost out of a resource pool that needs to be conserved for defensive purposes like dodging and blocking, now I must ask, Where is the incentive in this or any of the bow abilities to actually use a bow when the damage efficiency is so monumentally less?
Suggestions:
Poison Arrow can still be saved which is the good news. Merely cause the DoT to scale up along with the initial damage pre-morph, then post morph keep venom arrow as it is so that it only scales up in initial damage since it will have a now higher DoT damage from the pre-morph scaling which is enough of a buff in itself.
Then just change Poison Injection to scale the DoT portion but not the initial portion. Poison Injection can do less damage in it's DoT portion than other similar DoTs to account for the execute damage bonus, but not so much as it is now where the DoT is basically non existent. As it is now, poison injections dot even in execute range does less damage per tick than the class based DoT I use. That in itself needs being looked at, an execute ability shouldn't do less damage than abilities that don't need execute range to be effective.
Parting Words:
Sorry for the wall of text guys! Just had to get my Bow-Blues out in the open, there needs to be some changes to the Bow tree and stamina damage builds in general, the latter of which ZoS has announced they're working on which is good, but I still think some player-details could help. Cheers!
The title says it all. This ability is the posterchild ability which shows how much stamina damaging abilities are underperforming. Most stamina based DoTs do a wildly underwhelming amount of damage and poison arrow is the perfect example.
To prove as such, I'll compare the ability to a class ability with similar ability: The DK ability Searing Strike
The Comparison:
To test the difference I made a fresh DK wearing no gear and using no skill points, and took a look at the ability at it's base and can determine how the damage scales via skill calculators online. Here's what i came up with:
A fresh (level 1) DK in no gear but the started sword they give Searing Strike's tooltip at rank one reads 11 damage initially and another 15 over 8.5 seconds. Poison shot's tooltip at rank one in the same gear is 11 damage initially and 5 damage over 10 seconds. So even at rank one the abilities do the same initial damage but searing strike does 3x the amount that poison arrow in the DoT portion. That's just at rank one. It gets worse.
When they rank up, searing strikes initial damage and dot portion both scale up. The DoT portion scales up just over 40% higher than its rank one damage, the initial is around 20% higher. The morphs of this ability don't raise the damage scaling any further.
When poison arrow ranks up, the initial damage increases by 25% total but the DoT portion doesn't scale at all. Why? Then, with the morphs, Venom Arrow increases its initial damage with it's rank by another total of 25% from rank one to rank four. Poison Injection doesn't scale anything from rank one to four as far as we can tell, but from what I've seen it increases the damage of the DoT by 3x. Maybe that's what scales.
The Refined Comparison A La Napkin Math:
Using the % modifiers observed and mentioned above we can roughly show what the base damage of these abilities on the control character will be at their max ranks to compare them.
Searing strike at rank one does 11 damage initially, increased by 20% gives us around 13. 15 DoT increased by 40% gives us 21 damage over 8.5 seconds. So the total base damage output of this ability with initial and DoT added together is 35.
Poison arrow at rank one does 11 damage initially and 5 damage over 10 seconds. The initial damage raises 25% pre-morph and another 25% post morph with venom arrow. That leaves us with around 14 damage rounding up for the first 25%, then around 17 damage for hte next 25%. Add that with the 5 damage from the DoT and we get 22 damage total.
So Venom Arrow gives us a total of 22 damage (Poison injection is around 26 if counted during execute phase but only 16 outside of execute phase) while Searing Strike gives us a total of 35 damage. So Searing Strike does ~37% more total damage over less time than Venom Arrow, 54% more than Poison Injection pre-execute and 26% more even during execute. Searing strike does between 26% and 54% more damage than poison arrow and it's morphs, over LESS time. Granted, it's about a second and a half less, but it's the principle of the matter. What's more in this math comparison I'm completely ignoring the fact that the damage-oriented morph of Searing Strike increases its damage further the longer it's on the enemy and can be chained when cast multiple times.
And to top it all off, Searing Strike costs less resources. Without any cost reduction passives or enchantments, Searing Strike costs 18 magicka, Venom Arrow/Poison Injection costs 32 stamina. For an ability that draws from a resource pool that is being used for alternate purposes, you'd think it'd have a lower cost than its resource counterpart, but it costs 44% MORE than the one of the resource pool that has no alternate purpose.
Conclusion:
Where's the logic here ZoS? The only single target DoT that the bow tree has available to it is at best 25% (and that's a damn execute ability during the execute phase) worse than a similar class ability that DragonKnights have available, and costs 44% more. 25-54% less damage, 44% more cost out of a resource pool that needs to be conserved for defensive purposes like dodging and blocking, now I must ask, Where is the incentive in this or any of the bow abilities to actually use a bow when the damage efficiency is so monumentally less?
Suggestions:
Poison Arrow can still be saved which is the good news. Merely cause the DoT to scale up along with the initial damage pre-morph, then post morph keep venom arrow as it is so that it only scales up in initial damage since it will have a now higher DoT damage from the pre-morph scaling which is enough of a buff in itself.
Then just change Poison Injection to scale the DoT portion but not the initial portion. Poison Injection can do less damage in it's DoT portion than other similar DoTs to account for the execute damage bonus, but not so much as it is now where the DoT is basically non existent. As it is now, poison injections dot even in execute range does less damage per tick than the class based DoT I use. That in itself needs being looked at, an execute ability shouldn't do less damage than abilities that don't need execute range to be effective.
Parting Words:
Sorry for the wall of text guys! Just had to get my Bow-Blues out in the open, there needs to be some changes to the Bow tree and stamina damage builds in general, the latter of which ZoS has announced they're working on which is good, but I still think some player-details could help. Cheers!
5
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Nivzruo_ESO✭✭✭✭I'll tell you where you went wrong, you're using DK's as your comparison... everyone knows DK's are god mode.Nelgyntc- V14 NB2 -
Dekkameron✭✭✭✭✭No-one notices how weak the dot on poison arrow is, because most bow users (including myself) spam it mostly so it barely even has a chance to tick anyway.- Veteran Combat Librarian -1 -
Xnemesis✭✭✭✭I would add in scaling per rank and make the DoT duration about 4 seconds. I would have it tick every .5 seconds with the last tick causing the enemies melee attacks to cause less damage by x%.0 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭Poison Arrow isn't bad but Venom Arrow is very nice. First learn to double dip. Poison Arrow and it's morphs can clip a Heavy or casted attack to take advantage of things like Sneak bonus damage. This is a common tactic in all MMO's, clipping the final millisecond of a long duration ability with an instant. Second, and more seriously, let the dang thing tick off before re-applying. My usual tactic when I'm running Bow is to use my opener on my primary target then switch to the secondary target and let Venom Arrow's DoT kill the first.
Also ZoS just buffed it recently AND added cost reduction in Medium Armor, not to mention all the crafted set changes coming in 1.3 that favor Stamina. Just be happy ZoS is even addressing Stamina abilities at all.0 -
Xnemesis✭✭✭✭My only gripe with bows is they don't auto fire when full charged, and haste and other weapon speed abilities don't work with bows. That and I am *** slow when drawing a bow attack.0
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Kego✭✭✭✭Yeah, it is about time, that Haste will apply to Bow Attacks. That would be so nice with 40% Haste on Nightblade with Heavy Attacks.
Edited by Kego on 1 August 2014 14:421 -
Dekkameron✭✭✭✭✭No-one notices how weak the dot on poison arrow is, because most bow users (including myself) spam it mostly so it barely even has a chance to tick anyway.My only gripe with bows is they don't auto fire when full charged, and haste and other weapon speed abilities don't work with bows. That and I am *** slow when drawing a bow attack.
Urgh, i would hate it if you couldn't keep the string pulled back.. I mean... how would sneak up on people? or go around a corner expecting trouble? You'd be happy just pinging it off any old place would you?- Veteran Combat Librarian -2 -
Xnemesis✭✭✭✭Dekkameron wrote: »No-one notices how weak the dot on poison arrow is, because most bow users (including myself) spam it mostly so it barely even has a chance to tick anyway.My only gripe with bows is they don't auto fire when full charged, and haste and other weapon speed abilities don't work with bows. That and I am *** slow when drawing a bow attack.
Urgh, i would hate it if you couldn't keep the string pulled back.. I mean... how would sneak up on people? or go around a corner expecting trouble? You'd be happy just pinging it off any old place would you?
The reason this is important is to maximize DPS. As it is you have no way of knowing your attacks are fully charged. This will only get worse once they fix the weighted trait, haste, and other buffs that currently affect bow attack speed. Drawing your bow does not break stealth and TBH it wouldn't kill anyone to just draw a heavy attack when you are ready to fire. Not to mention when you have a full drawn bow you are slow as all heck. So yes I would like for bows to fire heavy attacks when they reach full charge. I have no problem at trading in immersion for better DPS in PVE and PVP.2 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »I'll tell you where you went wrong, you're using DK's as your comparison... everyone knows DK's are god mode.
How about I compare poison arrow/poison injection with vampires bane from templar, would that change things? A shorter duration than poison arrow by a few seconds, but does more damage at its base than poison arrow, both its instant damage and dot.
And yes I realize the reason no one talks about this is because they think it's fine since they spam venom arrow. But they don't seem to understand that poses a problem in itself. They are using a dot as a spam ability, therefore ignoring a good portion of the possible damage.
There is a deeper problem within these comments, which is that there is no better alternative for bow to spam. Say one of our abilities (maybe volley, no one really uses it anyway) was scrapped in favor of a simple instant cast upfront damager with whatever utilities attached on in morphs that ZoS feels fit.
IF something like that were to ever happen and venom arrow became obsolete as a spammer, would people still be content with its performance as an ability overall? Furthermore, If venom arrow is performing solidly as a spam ability, that has sort of taken over as the purpose of that morph. But the other morph keeps the focus on the dot, but is still pretty bad pre-35%.
As much as I like the execute idea in a dot for bow, I think people are better off spamming impale or mages fury, or even executioner. And if getting poison injections dot damage on par with other dots means getting rid of the execute portion due to how hard it would hit, I would be content with that.
But if I could keep the execute form and have respectable dot damage throughout as well, I certainly wouldn't complain
But that doesn't sound very balanced. 0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Poison Arrow isn't bad but Venom Arrow is very nice. First learn to double dip. Poison Arrow and it's morphs can clip a Heavy (...) attack
Not anymore.
Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on 5 August 2014 11:00P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.2 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What do you expect from a spell made by the Pet Shop Boys?
"Shoot that poison arrow, through my hearrrrrrt...""Get off my lawn!"0
