The issues with Werewolves and how to fix them.

Ralathar44

Let me say this first off: I like being a Werewolf and I think it's downright cool and fairly fun. However, there is no good reason to be a werewolf atm.

My main is a Bow/Resto Staff/Earthen Heart focused DK who is is concentrated to ridiculous levels on Max Stamina and Weapon damage. Earthen Heart and Resto staff allows me self buffs and to use my magicka pool to provide valuable support even as a DPS.

Transforming into a Werewolf makes me weaker in nearly every way. This is wrong.

Problems that need to be addressed in my opinion:

• Werewolves actually get WEAKER than human form when they transform. Werewolves are damage/buff focused, however I do better damage and provide better buffs/support while in human form.
• Werewolf passives and skills revolve around making you strong ONLY while transformed. Vampire passives make you stronger all the time.
• Werewolf survivability is worse than the survivability on MDPS builds while offering only comparable or even less damage/utility.
• Werewolves have no appreciable AOE damage
• Werewolves only have 2 skills and the normal attacks/blocks, while being non-werewolf lets you have access to 10 skills and TWO ultimates at any time.
• Werewolf Beserker suffers against many enemies that do not take bleeding damage.
• Werewolf ultimate is incredibly expensive and short duration for such a unimpressive ultimate.
• Werewolf transformation ACTUALLY SELF STUNS YOU when you turn human again. Being self stunned at the wrong time can easily mean death.
• Ultimate gained while in Werewolf form disappears when you transform back to human form.

Personal Recommendations to help fix Werewolf:

• Give Werewolves 3 new abilities each with it's own morph. A cone claw swipe similar to what vampire NPC's get that causes bleeding, a single target melee attack that has a better DPS than light/heavy attacks, and a bite attack that restores a small amount of HP and buffs your hp regeneration. We want a full ability bar and the ability to do something with that stamina.
• Make pursuit and savage strength provide part of their bonus to our human forms. (5% max stamina increase and 0.5% max stamina increase per kill up to 5 times sounds fair)
• Blood Rage should also increase your time spent in werewolf form by 0.5 seconds every time you get hit, once every 3 seconds.
• Werewolf Beserker should do 1% additional damage per rank to a max of 5% additional damage when compared to Pack leader (in addition to the bleed and attack speed)
• Either remove the self stun when transforming back to human or give us significant protection when we transform back.
• Give us 1/3rd of the ultimate we build while in Werewolf form when we tranform back. Going from 50% ultimate down to 0% when you transform back is a slap in the face knowing I could have used any other ultimate multiple times within that time without penalty.
• Decrease the ultimate cost to 600 or increase the base duration 15%. There are already powerful ultimates in this game I can pretty much build up again by the time the effect of the last one is gone.
• Give Werewolves a spell resist buff when they transform as well as an armor buff.

Now, Those are just my personal ideas on how to fix them. Some of them may be good, some may be bad. But I think for the most part at least they are good .

Brittany_Joy

Spell resist and armor rating won't do anything to improve survival since armor and spell reduction seems to stack. If they wanted to buff a werewolf's survival then the werewolf form should have a passive that decreases all damage taken by an acceptable %.

I want a toggled werewolf transformation, so I can transform at will. But I wouldn't ask for this if the werewolf transformation was able to be refreshed. By this I mean the ultimate I gain while in werewolf form should be able to be used to transform again, adding another 40 seconds to the werewolf timer.

Instead of the werewolf's damage being equal to his/her's max stamina it should be a passive damage increase that adds to your current armor/stat buffs. That way the werewolf transformation is a guaranteed damage booster.

I like your blood rage suggestion 'cause it helps the player to sustain werewolf form while in combat. I suggested that the Call of the Pack should be redesigned to add additional seconds to the werewolf timer per attack that you do while in the vicinity of another pack member. Werewolves definitely need more passives that help sustain the werewolf timer during combat because being self stunned from losing the werewolf transformation in combat is fatal.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Spell resist and armor rating won't do anything to improve survival since armor and spell reduction seems to stack. If they wanted to buff a werewolf's survival then the werewolf form should have a passive that decreases all damage taken by an acceptable %.

Judging from the Werewolve's abilities they intended the Werewolf to be melee DPS and group buffs. The spell resistance buff and bite isn't meant to make them tanky in the slightest, it's just meant to slightly extend their lives so they are a little bit less fragile.

With the transformation heal, a slight spell resistance buff to match the armor debuff, and that new bite ability I added they should be about as survivable as you can expect MDPS to be and remain balanced.

I want a toggled werewolf transformation, so I can transform at will.

This would be less of an issue if the cost wasn't as high as it was, if kill times were faster (more devours), and if you retained some of your ultimate gain while transformed. To be honest if you were to focus on it right now you can stay transformed for a fair time.

Instead of the werewolf's damage being equal to his/her's max stamina it should be a passive damage increase that adds to your current armor/stat buffs. That way the werewolf transformation is a guaranteed damage booster.

Vampire isn't exactly a good compliment to stamina builds, I see no problem in Werewolf not being a good compliment to magicka builds. With my changes it could still have some potential use to tank builds, just like vampire can (though not recommended for a main tank on either).

I like your blood rage suggestion 'cause it helps the player to sustain werewolf form while in combat.

Yeah, but I didn't want to go overboard with it. I just find it strange that the passive suddenly doesn't work when transformed because it's not like your blood rage diminishes, it increases lol! 1/2 second every 3 seconds is only 5 seconds max over 30 seconds, less than a 20% increase IF you are constantly taking damage. Likely you'll only get 4 seconds or even less out of it.

I suggested that the Call of the Pack should be redesigned to add additional seconds to the werewolf timer per attack that you do while in the vicinity of another pack member. Werewolves definitely need more passives that help sustain the werewolf timer during combat because being self stunned from losing the werewolf transformation in combat is fatal.

I don't want Werewolf to be permanent unless you are taking morphs that lower your damage and you're constantly doing things to extend that duration. It still needs limits.

Brittany_Joy

@Ralathar44, you need a reality check man. Werewolves are weak and those suggestions won't fix a thing. Why would you support a werewolf skill line that encouraged werewolves to be anything but a werewolf? Isn't the whole point of becoming a werewolf is to actually be one! we receive the weakness 100% of the time. Yet we are restricted and discouraged from transforming because of the timer and numerous drawbacks. We need a toggled transformation ASAP because that is the only way to make werewolves happy and viable. We need our werewolf utility and damage to be available to us at all times in order to make up for the weaknesses.

Why would I play a game that punishes me 100% of the time. Why would I play a game that mislead me to believe that being infected with Sanies Lupinus wouldn't actually make me a ravenous beast. The whole reason why werewolves and vampires had weaknesses to begin with in previous Elder Scrolls titles is because it was a single-player game! If it turned into a MMO then I am sure they would have eliminated the weakness for the sake of balanced gameplay. Look around you, imbalanced games lead to a declining community because when it becomes a social game your viability and image matters! My werewolf guild is basically abandoned due to how weak werewolves are and how the skill line prevents us from being werewolves most of the time. Several others claimed to have quit due to how weak werewolves are as well.

You might say well I don't want a F'n Twilight experience or Werewolves Online. But look up werewolves and you will find that there is a huge fan community for werewolves. Why would you become a werewolf if you weren't a fan to begin with? If you don't want to be a werewolf then cure yourself.

Having a damage reduction buff in werewolf form is not OP at all. For example druid cats, from WoW, can get a buff to receive 10% less damage. While moonkins used to have a 15% reduction to all damage taken. Having 15% damage reduction or 10% didn't make them OP like some peeps may think.

Werewolves do not need limits because we need to make up for numerous weaknesses. How does having permawolf make us OP when we receive an extra 59% damage from players which is constant? Being surrounded by enemy players who do an extra 59% damage to us is somehow acceptable. Yet a reliable werewolf transformation is unacceptable. How is this logical thinking?

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

We need a toggled transformation ASAP because that is the only way to make werewolves happy and viable. We need our werewolf utility and damage to be available to us at all times in order to make up for the weaknesses.

This one paragraph shows how poorly thought out your concept of balance is. Fact is that my way, your way, and many other ways are all viable ways of making a useful Werewolf that is worth taking.

I'm no fool, my ideas are not the only way it can be done. Nor are they infallible. Perhaps you should show some smidgeon of humility yourself and accept those two things as well. It would make you a little more credible.

Lyall84

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Personal Recommendations to help fix Werewolf:

• Give Werewolves 3 new abilities each with it's own morph. A cone claw swipe similar to what vampire NPC's get that causes bleeding, a single target melee attack that has a better DPS than light/heavy attacks, and a bite attack that restores a small amount of HP and buffs your hp regeneration. We want a full ability bar and the ability to do something with that stamina.
• Make pursuit and savage strength provide part of their bonus to our human forms. (5% max stamina increase and 0.5% max stamina increase per kill up to 5 times sounds fair)
• Blood Rage should also increase your time spent in werewolf form by 0.5 seconds every time you get hit, once every 3 seconds.
• Werewolf Beserker should do 1% additional damage per rank to a max of 5% additional damage when compared to Pack leader (in addition to the bleed and attack speed)
• Either remove the self stun when transforming back to human or give us significant protection when we transform back.
• Give us 1/3rd of the ultimate we build while in Werewolf form when we tranform back. Going from 50% ultimate down to 0% when you transform back is a slap in the face knowing I could have used any other ultimate multiple times within that time without penalty.
• Decrease the ultimate cost to 600 or increase the base duration 15%. There are already powerful ultimates in this game I can pretty much build up again by the time the effect of the last one is gone.
• Give Werewolves a spell resist buff when they transform as well as an armor buff.

Agree with the new active skills 100%.

Agree with the pursuit for human form, but not the savage strength. Keep that wolf form only. But I think they should add a 10/20% or a 5/10/15% health regeneration passive that effects both human and wolf form. Most werewolf lore talks about how they have unnatural regeneration.

Agree with the blood rage 100%. Why would it effect human form only? Does not make sense.

Partially agree with the Berserker, but it instead of extra damage, it should be 25% splash damage to up to two additional targets. Kind of like the two handed passive.

Disagree with the protection of the self stun, that needs to be there, but at the same time, they need to make the Ultimate bad ass enough to actually justify the cost and the stun afterwards.

Partially agree and disagree with the give back the ultimate...we should keep 100% of the ultimate we gain after we shift back. Make that pack leader actually mean something to other werewolf players.

Leave the cost at 750, it is not too bad to get to there, but...they need to remove the stupid 5 min ultimate reset and, they should increase the duration of werewolf form by at least 20%.

Agree with the spell resist/armor buff, maybe make it passive for 10/20% increase? or maybe without skill points, werewolf take 10% less damage from all sources while transformed.

Drachdhar

I'd think that have the werewolf timer not reduce at all while in combat would be a good thing. Fighting and shedding blood would keep the beast going.
Or at least, like was suggested, get more duration when getting hit if you have specced Blood Rage, only more time than 0.5 seconds every 3 seconds.

In any case, Werewolf Transform needs to be buffed by alot. It is the single weakest ultimate, and the single most costly ultimate currently. Me, and many others, have actually died from using it. Highly doubt that any other ultimate in this game actually results in character death, rather quite the opposite since other ultimates are life savers and game changers.

Ralathar44

Drachdhar wrote: »

I'd think that have the werewolf timer not reduce at all while in combat would be a good thing. Fighting and shedding blood would keep the beast going.
Or at least, like was suggested, get more duration when getting hit if you have specced Blood Rage, only more time than 0.5 seconds every 3 seconds.

In any case, Werewolf Transform needs to be buffed by alot. It is the single weakest ultimate, and the single most costly ultimate currently. Me, and many others, have actually died from using it. Highly doubt that any other ultimate in this game actually results in character death, rather quite the opposite since other ultimates are life savers and game changers.

If the skill is something you can endlessly maintain without serious concessions AND it's very powerful then it becomes easily overpowered.

The limit of the skill needs to be duration and how long it takes to build up if you want it to be powerful. Now this also needs to "feel" good too. Which is why in current state it still needs to either build up faster or last longer because it just "feels" like it's done too quickly for the time required to get there. That feeling won't change even if the form becomes legitimately powerful.

It's a tricky balance to make something feel powerful and satisfying while remaining balanced. This is why 0.5 seconds every 3 seconds is the absolute most I'd go with the blood rage passive. Keep in mind you already have devour and can use pounce to extend the duration. I've successfully kept Werewolf form up for a good long while in select situations thanks to devour alone. However you cannot devour alot of enemies so it needs to feel better in the cases you cannot devour.

Brittany_Joy

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

We need a toggled transformation ASAP because that is the only way to make werewolves happy and viable. We need our werewolf utility and damage to be available to us at all times in order to make up for the weaknesses.

This one paragraph shows how poorly thought out your concept of balance is. Fact is that my way, your way, and many other ways are all viable ways of making a useful Werewolf that is worth taking.

I'm no fool, my ideas are not the only way it can be done. Nor are they infallible. Perhaps you should show some smidgeon of humility yourself and accept those two things as well. It would make you a little more credible.

Isn't naming and shaming against the rules? Why are you making this personal and attacking me directly when we are supposed to be debating what will fix the werewolf. The werewolf skill line grants zero utility to the player because the werewolf transformation has so many limitations and restrictions. The developers are perfectly capable of developing a viable skill line, they've shown this with the dragonknight and sorcerer. So they should revamp the werewolf skill line to something that is more practical and viable.

The Dragonknight's Ironskin, inhale, Dragon blood,Magma armor, reflective scales, and scaled armor are excellent abilities that make a viable melee character. So why can't the developers draw inspiration from the dragonknight's abilities to create a better werewolf skill line. A single AoE attack is not going to make the werewolf viable.

Werewolves should be designed to be like bruisers;
- tough but not tanky
- can deal a moderate amount of damage and slight burst
- has a lifeline or a lifesaving disengage ability
The werewolf already has great CC with the pounce and roar. Unless ZoS really wants the werewolves to be the bursty types which need to be built to be elusive. Being squishy melee and having no abilities that make you elusive is just gonna get you killed most of the time no matter how much damage you do. They need to give werewolves new abilities that complement a melee character.

All I am really asking for is a viable werewolf skill line that grants me enough utility to turn the tide of any battle. Having great utility is very important when it comes to PvP. Currently the werewolf does have some great CC but it falls flat because it is not enough to stand against a group or a skilled player. Players can render the werewolf useless by using Immovable and Sparks. The werewolf skill line needs abilities that help to subvert the hard counters. It is also important that the werewolf skill line actually makes the player feel like a werewolf.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Isn't naming and shaming against the rules? Why are you making this personal and attacking me directly when we are supposed to be debating what will fix the werewolf.

Do not attempt to mislead the issue. I said your concept of balance was poorly thought out using a single paragraph to illustrate the underlying design theory behind your concept of balance. I said nothing of you. The idea you expressed and you are not one in the same. Disagreeing with someone's view and pointing out it's flaws is not a personal attack.

Trying to enlist moderator help because you have been refuted is not an arguing point, it's politics.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

The werewolf skill line grants zero utility to the player because the werewolf transformation has so many limitations and restrictions.

Restrictions and limitations do not invalidate the utility the werewolf line provides. Werewolf has excellent movement capabilities, excellent mass CC ability, and has the potential for minor to moderate group buffing ability. You could argue that this utility needs to be strengthened but you certainly cannot argue that it does not exist.

This statement is flat out wrong.

The developers are perfectly capable of developing a viable skill line, they've shown this with the dragonknight and sorcerer.

Actually those are not good examples. Dragon Knight is admitted by the devs themselves to be way too good and both Dragon Knight and Sorcerors owe a large amount of their power to light armor and staves.

So they should revamp the werewolf skill line to something that is more practical and viable.

That is precisely what this thread is about and I don't think many people disagree with this.

The Dragonknight's Ironskin, inhale, Dragon blood,Magma armor, reflective scales, and scaled armor are excellent abilities that make a viable melee character. So why can't the developers draw inspiration from the dragonknight's abilities to create a better werewolf skill line.

Because they have specifically called out Dragon Knight survivability relative to other classes as being too high and destined for nerfs. I completely agree with this.

Werewolves should be designed to be like bruisers;
- tough but not tanky
- can deal a moderate amount of damage and slight burst
- has a lifeline or a lifesaving disengage ability

This is your opinion. Melee DPS, Tank, and Bruiser (half in between and notoriously hard to balance) are all viable options for what werewolf could be designed as and be successful.

Being squishy melee and having no abilities that make you elusive is just gonna get you killed most of the time no matter how much damage you do.

This is not a true statement in and of itself. It depends on design, context, and game. There are games that let people be frail MDPS and survive, there are games that do not let them survive.

This game is evolving right now at a rapid pace. Either of these two possibilities is still a potential outcome for this game. The design philosophy is theirs to choose however, not yours or mine.

Currently MDPS is mainly hindered not by survivability, but instead by the inability to compete, damage wise, against ranged classes. Bow is an inherently better weapon than Dual Wield and 2h, Sword and Board is not intended for DPS, and staves/class skills blow all of them out of the water. If their DPS offered enough payoff to balance out the additional danger they would be more viable.

As a side note once they bring DK survivability back down close to the levels of the other classes there will likely be a global evaluation of survivability as a whole in the new paradigm.

All I am really asking for is a viable werewolf skill line

This is what everyone wants.

that grants me enough utility to turn the tide of any battle.

No, some battles you should lose. Deal with it. Ultimates should be powerful abilities capable of turning many losing battles, but some battles you should still lose.

Having great utility is very important when it comes to PvP.

This game is not ready for PVP balance. Until it's not longer a wave of DK's dominating the landscape PVP balance will be something you cannot even properly consider. Only once some of these larger problems have been addressed can we then take a look at the PVP balance landscape.

The werewolf skill line needs abilities that help to subvert the hard counters. It is also important that the werewolf skill line actually makes the player feel like a werewolf.

If you can overcome a counter, is it a counter anymore? What's the point of a counter you can just play properly and avoid?

Brittany_Joy

@Ralathar44, Do you really think questioning my cognitive ability is not insulting in anyway? All you are doing is quoting me and personally attacking my ability to reason. You are not providing a new suggestion to help solve the problem. You are also just answering with questions, which is counterproductive.

At least provide some research on why you think your suggestion would work. Are there any games out there that have the same function so you can provide an example and how well it is received in that particular game? Do your suggestions fix the current problems or are they just bloat abilities that add more to the action bar without providing a viable function. Instead of doing this you choose to question my ability and classify my suggestions as foolish and poorly thought out.

I am not asking for a 100% A+++ exam on why your suggestion would work but at least provide one example and why you think it will fix the werewolf problem. At least I tried to provide an example and get you to see why other suggestions might be worth thinking of. Now to get back on topic.

Avoiding hard counters is actually what most game developers strive to achieve. Hard Counters prevent skilled combat because a hard counter is defined as something that can not be countered and defeated. Counters should exist but proper use of skill and timing should subvert counters, basically lessen the effect but not negate it. With hard counters there is no way for any skilled gameplay to achieve the upper hand or lessen the effect which is why it is called a hard counter or OP.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Ralathar44, Do you really think questioning my cognitive ability is not insulting in anyway? All you are doing is quoting me and personally attacking my ability to reason.

I'm not going to argue you on this, I'm simply going to disagree. As the only person privy to my own personal thoughts and motivations I say that I am not attacking you and I ask you to please stop making this about yourself as that is counter-productive in every sense for both of us.

You are not providing a new suggestion to help solve the problem. You are also just answering with questions, which is counterproductive.

I provided a fair sized thread and more commentary in replies, this statement is positively incorrect.

At least provide some research on why you think your suggestion would work. Are there any games out there that have the same function so you can provide an example and how well it is received in that particular game? Do your suggestions fix the current problems or are they just bloat abilities that add more to the action bar without providing a viable function. Instead of doing this you choose to question my ability and classify my suggestions as foolish and poorly thought out.

All of those things would be moot considering this game is far differently balanced than everything you just referenced and other MMORPG's. Direct parallels are nearly impossible and only basic game play mechanics and design philosophy really translate.

I am not asking for a 100% A+++ exam on why your suggestion would work but at least provide one example and why you think it will fix the werewolf problem. At least I tried to provide an example and get you to see why other suggestions might be worth thinking of. Now to get back on topic.

Because the WW skills without exception add damage or team buffing. Only 1 WW skill, Roar, provides any real survivability. This communicates to me clearly their design philosophy behind WW is melee DPS with some utility via team buffs and CC.

Avoiding hard counters is actually what most game developers strive to achieve.

No, do not speak for most game developers. Game developers are actually split on the idea of hard counters. Some prefer hard counters, some prefer soft counters. Both are valid styles of game design.

However a counter that can be countered ceases to be a counter. That is fact and must be taken into account for balance, thus something that can subvert is counter must be weaker to remain balanced.

Hard Counters prevent skilled combat because a hard counter is defined as something that can not be countered and defeated.

Only in a 1 vs 1 with player against their hard counter. In a team environment this disappears. In a team environment hard counters actually promote teamwork and teamplay skill moreso than soft counters because you cannot simply do everything yourself. While soft counters promote solo skill and marginalize teamwork and teamplay skills.

Both are valid design styles.

Counters should exist but proper use of skill and timing should subvert counters, basically lessen the effect but not negate it.

If you can negate the hard counter enough to overcome it reliably then it ceases to be a counter. This has been one of the single biggest balance problems to crop up repeatedly in MMORPG's, players being able to overcome the weaknesses of their class through equipment/skill/play and almost always end up in a nerf.

This is where the titleTankmage comes from.
http://cometgirlblog.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/all-hail-the-tank-mage/

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3627/mmo_class_design_up_with_hybrids_.php

A bruiser with sustain like you want is a hybrid who has the ability to tank, DPS, and self heal to some degree. Essentially a complete walking holy trinity in and of itself it must be much weaker in each or it will be undeniably imbalanced.

With hard counters there is no way for any skilled gameplay to achieve the upper hand or lessen the effect which is why it is called a hard counter or OP.

Team work, not trying to solo everything yourself in an MMORPG. Not expecting to be able to do everything on one class. Accepting limits for overall deeper gameplay.

As an FYI all of this counter/hard counter stuff has NOTHING to do with Werewolf. They are not hard countered by anything. The things you listed were soft counters.

Ralathar44

It would be nice if, on any old thread at all, a ZOS employee could give some sort of update on Werewolves.

"It's in the next patch."
"It's in this patch."
"We don't have anything definitive but we are aware."
Etc.

Drachdhar

I think the point some are missing here is... Werewolf Transform is an ULTIMATE, not a class.
It is the single most costly ultimate, and the single worst ultimate. An ultimate which can be activated once when almost every other ulti can be activated 3-4 times, including some "I win buttons", that severely weakens you is BAD.
Add to that it's an ultimate which requires 16 SPs to reach its potential... It should be a facewreck when you activate it, for your opponents and not yourself as it currently is.

Roar sucks to be honest... Lengthy cast time and short range, plain bad IMO. And it costs ALOT to use, just like Pounce.
Pounce is also pretty damn bad, low dmg and high cost and only have an effect on already "shaken" foes.

Add into this the difficulty in actually raising these skills to morph level. The only chance of ever raising them is to slot em on your non-transformed bars and run around with skills that you cant use just to get xp on em.
Personally, I think they should recieve xp at the exact same rate as the Werewolf Transform skill once you unlock em, even if they are not slotted.

Ralathar44

Drachdhar wrote: »

I think the point some are missing here is... Werewolf Transform is an ULTIMATE, not a class.
It is the single most costly ultimate, and the single worst ultimate. An ultimate which can be activated once when almost every other ulti can be activated 3-4 times, including some "I win buttons", that severely weakens you is BAD.
Add to that it's an ultimate which requires 16 SPs to reach its potential... It should be a facewreck when you activate it, for your opponents and not yourself as it currently is.

Roar sucks to be honest... Lengthy cast time and short range, plain bad IMO. And it costs ALOT to use, just like Pounce.
Pounce is also pretty damn bad, low dmg and high cost and only have an effect on already "shaken" foes.

Add into this the difficulty in actually raising these skills to morph level. The only chance of ever raising them is to slot em on your non-transformed bars and run around with skills that you cant use just to get xp on em.
Personally, I think they should recieve xp at the exact same rate as the Werewolf Transform skill once you unlock em, even if they are not slotted.

You make valid points and I agree with you. This thread is not intended to be the end all be all fix for Werewolves, I'm just trying to give us a solid starting point to adjust up or down from that isn't completely worthless in the meantime.

I want it to be more than a high investment ulti that can only possibly pay off by being OP, that's an inherently flawed design. I want it to be something that matters outside of being an ulti and I want it to be an ulti that, while initially less outright powerful than other ultis, lasts longer and has immense cool factor.

I think it's fair to say that in the course of revamping Werewolf a balance pass will be made on both Pounce and Roar.

Drachdhar

Personally I just hope that the Werewolf gets saved from the wreckage it is currently... Cant even properly RP as one since the timer will run out before you get a damn thing done.

1: Make it as scary as it should be... Lore-wise werecritters in the Elder Scrolls 'verse are really dangerous. If one has a choice, one does not tangle with em.

2: Make the investment in SPs count for something... And the fact that it, just like vampirism has a few inherent weaknesses should count for something.

Right now its a cool fluffy ability that one could possibly use, some time...

How this gets solved, does not really interest me as much as that it should get some real attention. This game already has issues with regards to the limited efficient playstyles available, making something cool utterly worthless is not very good.
I mean... This game game had a few incredible things to lure players.
Massive PvP - turned out to be mostly zerg trains spamming Impulse...
Vampirism - cool and somewhat buggy... not sure if its good enough, but I like it anyway...
Lycanthropy - Just a plain nerf to any character atm, but cool.
"Play as you want" - as long as it is a character with light armor and staffs...

Ralathar44

Drachdhar wrote: »

"Play as you want" - as long as it is a character with light armor and staffs...

Patience young one, within the next two months you will feel a great disturbance in meta. As if a millions voices whined about being nerfed at once, and were then silenced by the nerf bat .

ScardyFox

I don't think anyone wants anything OP. I can't speak for anyone with exacts, but for myself I have always been drawn to play styles that are high risk high reward. Also, it helps that I have loved werewolves since a kid (thank you The Howling!).

As it stands, werewolves are enormous risk and zero reward.

Drachdhar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Drachdhar wrote: »

"Play as you want" - as long as it is a character with light armor and staffs...

Patience young one, within the next two months you will feel a great disturbance in meta. As if a millions voices whined about being nerfed at once, and were then silenced by the nerf bat .

Maybe... but with 17 days left on my sub I uninstalled ESO. Maybe come back in 6 months to a year and hope the game is in a better state.

Ralathar44

Drachdhar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Drachdhar wrote: »

"Play as you want" - as long as it is a character with light armor and staffs...

Patience young one, within the next two months you will feel a great disturbance in meta. As if a millions voices whined about being nerfed at once, and were then silenced by the nerf bat .

Maybe... but with 17 days left on my sub I uninstalled ESO. Maybe come back in 6 months to a year and hope the game is in a better state.

Hope you enjoy your travels.

Taz

I would be extremely, totally and stupid happy with just making it a toggled ability. Like you build up that 1000 ultimate, transform, and stay transformed until you die or toggle it off, at which time you need to build up that ultimate to transform again. It'd make the werewolf feel more like a werewolf, and what's more, you could actually RP as one and see it in the world. As a counter-measure, if someone sees you charging at them, they know what you are and can silver you accordingly.

...also not that it's super important, but changing the sprint animation from the awkward two-legged to a four-legged run would be great. Like Skyrim's. Felt more beastly.

Kyotita

we need this to be toggle like mentioned by above poster (and several others) -.-, the class is STILL not fixed even after rumors that this patch would fix some of werewolfs issues....it has fixed none pretty much

Storm1732

There was supposed to be a fix on devour in this patch but devour still has a cooldown timer on it unfortunately

Brittany_Joy

@Ralathar44, Why do you think it is illogical to use references and gameplay mechanics that prove to be successful in past games?

Hard counters are basically counters were you can not react in a way that could possibly keep you alive. A hard counter is basically a 100% win chance. Counters should exist but shouldn't define the outcome. Skillful use of abilities and utility should always be rewarded and actually doable. I didn't say get rid of counters. I just said there should be a possible reaction to lessen the effect of the counter but not negate it.

I want the werewolf skill line to reward skillful gameplay. Honestly, the developers can figure out a fix if they just play the skill line and implement changes that improve their win chance, increase the skill cap, but also reduce the learning curve. Impossible! Balance is so hard to achieve in a game but it is worth trying for. Accepting hard counters negate the possibility of balanced gameplay though.

A reminder I think I am referring to the overbearing weaknesses that the werewolf skill line has which make it impossible to actually play at an acceptable level because the design prevents it. Your suggestions won't fix it because...well the best I can describe it is the saying "You're just polishing a turd". The werewolf skill line needs a revamp.

Also those articles you linked are purdy interesting. I disagree with the perspective on hybrids though. Hybrids are not meant to excel in all areas such as DPS, Heals, and tankiness. Hybrids, in my mind, are just a class that relies on proper use of their utility to win the battle. Hybrids usually lack in bursting power but make up for it in sustain. No sensible hybrid should be able to burst heal or burst Deeps! The article is right that hybrids are hard to balance but not because of the design instead it is because of the developer's inability to understand what a hybrid should be like.

Developers are humans too and make mistakes. Banning Hybrids completely just because they are hard to balance doesn't make any sense though. Developers should always be trying to better their game designing skeels. Putting up walls and Keep out signs is gonna stifle growth.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Ralathar44, Why do you think it is illogical to use references and gameplay mechanics that prove to be successful in past games?

Hard counters....

More talks about hard counters. This game does not have hard counters.

Accepting hard counters negate the possibility of balanced gameplay though.

This game does not have hard counters.

A reminder I think I am referring to the overbearing weaknesses that the werewolf skill line has which make it impossible to actually play at an acceptable level because the design prevents it.

Agreed that the current design or implementation is not enough.

Your suggestions won't fix it because...well the best I can describe it is the saying "You're just polishing a turd". The werewolf skill line needs a revamp.

Completely disagree on this point. You are asserting that the fundamental idea behind werewolf is broken to such a degree it cannot be made viable and must instead be rewritten. This is of course a self serving fallacy because you want the werewolf to do something else.

Keep in mind that my suggestions are not boom, werewolf fixed. They are merely the next step, as would be any revamp.

Here is the difference: I'm working within their design philosophy and minimizing the amount of new resources they need to add. If I did it properly, they don't actually need to use any new resources at all, but instead can use resources already present in the game. This means it not only agrees with their general ideas on werewolves but it minimizes the amount of work needed to implement.

Your suggestion throws both of those concepts to the winds. You are essentially telling them to change what they envision werewolf to be, which is highly unlikely to happen, AND you're asking them to invest a great amount of additional resources and creating new balance issues as well.

You are doubtful my buffs would be enough. That's good. It means there is room to tweak it further. You don't want to rocket something upwards in power, you want to tweak it. My suggestions are already a bit past that limit.

Also those articles you linked are purdy interesting. I disagree with the perspective on hybrids though. Hybrids are not meant to excel in all areas such as DPS, Heals, and tankiness. Hybrids, in my mind, are just a class that relies on proper use of their utility to win the battle. Hybrids usually lack in bursting power but make up for it in sustain. No sensible hybrid should be able to burst heal or burst Deeps! The article is right that hybrids are hard to balance but not because of the design instead it is because of the developer's inability to understand what a hybrid should be like.

An here it is, unbridled hubris. You know better than the entire gaming industry lol. You are of course, solidly wrong on all counts in this quote.

Developers are humans too and make mistakes. Banning Hybrids completely just because they are hard to balance doesn't make any sense though. Developers should always be trying to better their game designing skeels. Putting up walls and Keep out signs is gonna stifle growth.

Are you on the drugs son? This entire game is based off the concept of hybrids lol.

Brittany_Joy

@Ralathar44, Again, you completely ignore my questions. Seriously stop quoting parts that do not ask for answers. Answering rhetorical parts does not make you seem SMRT! Nor does it clarify your intentions.

Hard counters do exist in the game. A werewolf's weakness to poison and members of the fighter's guild may be viewed as a hard counter. A skilled fighter will always have the upper hand against a skilled werewolf because no amount of skill can overcome the game's design. The overbearing weaknesses that every werewolf has to suffer is part of the game's design. This part diminishes skilled play and punishes the player for being a werewolf. By the game's own design it is impossible for any werewolf to be powerful because they have an abundance of weaknesses to make sure they are killed.

Hard counters should never be in a MMO because it segregates the community because the game's design brands certain players as useless. Of course, counters should exist but there should always be a possible reaction to lessen the devastating effects of counters. I am not saying negate it entirely. If a possible reaction exists for every counter then the player is not judged as useless by design, instead is judged by skill.

The hybrid response was to the article

Lastly, game developers do make mistakes and good developers acknowledge it so they may better themselves. I did not say I was better than a game developer. You are not better than a game developer either!

Oronell

Drachdhar wrote: »

I think the point some are missing here is... Werewolf Transform is an ULTIMATE, not a class.
It is the single most costly ultimate, and the single worst ultimate. An ultimate which can be activated once when almost every other ulti can be activated 3-4 times, including some "I win buttons", that severely weakens you is BAD.
Add to that it's an ultimate which requires 16 SPs to reach its potential... It should be a facewreck when you activate it, for your opponents and not yourself as it currently is.

Werewolf is both an Ultimate AND a Class. Therein lies the problem. To access the Class you have to first use the Ultimate. From my understanding its the only hybrid of this sort in the game.

Ralathar44

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Ralathar44, Again, you completely ignore my questions. Seriously stop quoting parts that do not ask for answers. Answering rhetorical parts does not make you seem SMRT! Nor does it clarify your intentions.

So, I am not allowed to address whatever parts of your post that you see fit? Doesn't that seem quite a bit biased an illogical? This is a disagreement, every statement of both sides is subject to criticism.

I've argued my side, but I've never said that you do not have the right to argue your side. That would be silly.

Hard counters do exist in the game. A werewolf's weakness to poison and members of the fighter's guild may be viewed as a hard counter

You couldn't even begin to say that those are hard counters. Werewolves lose mostly because being a werewolf makes you WEAKER instead of stronger. You automatically start at a large disadvantage without any considerations of intentional weaknesses.

Though honestly, the stronger builds do not use fighters guild or poison and would perform better than the builds trying to leverage those against WW.

A skilled fighter will always have the upper hand against a skilled werewolf because no amount of skill can overcome the game's design. The overbearing weaknesses that every werewolf has to suffer is part of the game's design. This part diminishes skilled play and punishes the player for being a werewolf. By the game's own design it is impossible for any werewolf to be powerful because they have an abundance of weaknesses to make sure they are killed.

The problem has nothing to do with their weaknesses. It's that they have no strengths to counterbalance the weaknesses. In fact even without the "weaknesses" a werewolf is weaker than the player is before the transformation.

You could take the poison and fighters guild away and WW would be in the exact same place. Because the real problem has nothing to do with that.

Hard counters should never be in a MMO because it segregates the community because the game's design brands certain players as useless. Of course, counters should exist but there should always be a possible reaction to lessen the devastating effects of counters. I am not saying negate it entirely. If a possible reaction exists for every counter then the player is not judged as useless by design, instead is judged by skill.

Again you keep harping on counters when the problem has nothing to do with any supposed hard counters. You've missed the issue entirely.

Lastly, game developers do make mistakes and good developers acknowledge it so they may better themselves. I did not say I was better than a game developer. You are not better than a game developer either!

Quite frankly I don't know if I'm a better game developer. I have no track record, but that is my intended career path. However, being on this side of the wall and not knowing exactly what their plans are I have to assume that they are the better game developer.

Now, where Werewolf goes from here will still not show I'm a better game developer even if my ideas are enacted. This is beyond any sense of pride or silly things like that. In fact alot of this decisions making process on where to spend resources isn't their call either. A sucky reality of a game developer is alot of time people worried mostly about the money make the calls on where resources are allocated.

Brittany_Joy

@Ralathar44, ok I is not gonna debate anymore 'cause I see no point in it. We both want the werewolf skill line to have strengths to counter the weaknesses. I just want a werewolf skill line that is viable and actually makes me feel like a werewolf and not a gimpy person.

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@Ralathar44, ok I is not gonna debate anymore 'cause I see no point in it. We both want the werewolf skill line to have strengths to counter the weaknesses. I just want a werewolf skill line that is viable and actually makes me feel like a werewolf and not a gimpy person.

But you will have to wait a long time. Regarding to the Road Ahead - 8.July ZEN moved WW issue to the end of their to-do list and MAY do something about this problem.
I just feel bad for all the WWs out there. Having useless or extremly underpowered WW skills as Vampires dominate Cyrodiil and got MUCH better passives and skills attached.

Did I mention that in almost every second death recap in cyrodiil is some vamp skill?