A thought about "useless" classes/builds

Lynnessa

So, there is a lot of talk about certain classes being inferior to the point of being useless (i.e. "groups are turning down NB"), and about how any build that doesn't depend on light armor and staves is ineffective.

I have to ask... are the high level dungeons and trials doable with nightblades or templars (these are the useless classes, right?) or by groups with builds that have nothing to do with light armor and staves?

If it *is* possible to complete the dungeon with a more varied group composition... then isn't it safe to say that the players are the ones keeping nightblades/templars/non-staff-users from being used?

I mean, if the only difference is finishing a dungeon 5 minutes faster than you would without the nightblade, then it seems like player preferences are as much of a problem as anything in the game's design. It's not that we CAN'T "play the way we want" it's that people have decided that their way is the only way.

Or is it just straight up impossible to do the content if half of your group is nightblades/templars/non-staff-users?

nerevarine1138

Most people in the game aren't "banning" Nightblades/Templars. It's only the odd group of players who think their PuG is going to miraculously end up on the leaderboards and place too much faith in bad posts on the forums that are doing that. My guild is fine running with me, as are most VR dungeon groups.

Brutalis

The trial times are pretty much set and near unbreakable. If you are not in a guild that is running the Trials nightly for practice and tweaking, then chances are the trials runs you go on, aren't shooting for time. So likely, "LFM" groups in zone chat for trials are not going for time. If you don't get picked, its for some other reason than you potentially slowing them down.

But here is a tip. Go out and get those Skill Points, so you can "tweek" to whatever is needed. This is the way of the ESO. Now grab the pebble from my hand.

Exarch

In the munchkin lexicon "viable" means "optimal min/max result", and "useless" means "anything less than optimal."

Vuron

Do any of you think that you could find 12 players running stamina builds that could complete the trials?

It might be possible to complete the trials with a few players that are less than optimal. A good group of 11 might be able to complete it with a level 1 tagging along, but that doesn't mean certain builds aren't bad.

If half your group are non-staff users or stamina based? It might not be possible. It's not really about play style or preference. There are DPS requirements which, at the moment, can't seem to be met by stamina builds.

nerevarine1138

Vuron wrote: »

Do any of you think that you could find 12 players running stamina builds that could complete the trials?

It might be possible to complete the trials with a few players that are less than optimal. A good group of 11 might be able to complete it with a level 1 tagging along, but that doesn't mean certain builds aren't bad.

If half your group are non-staff users or stamina based? It might not be possible. It's not really about play style or preference. There are DPS requirements which, at the moment, can't seem to be met by stamina builds.

Well, a 12-man group of stamina-based characters would probably fail due to the lack of healers.

But your problem is in thinking of stamina builds as builds that use exclusively stamina-based abilities. If you're doing that, you're intentionally crippling your character.

Vuron

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

Do any of you think that you could find 12 players running stamina builds that could complete the trials?

It might be possible to complete the trials with a few players that are less than optimal. A good group of 11 might be able to complete it with a level 1 tagging along, but that doesn't mean certain builds aren't bad.

If half your group are non-staff users or stamina based? It might not be possible. It's not really about play style or preference. There are DPS requirements which, at the moment, can't seem to be met by stamina builds.

Well, a 12-man group of stamina-based characters would probably fail due to the lack of healers.

But your problem is in thinking of stamina builds as builds that use exclusively stamina-based abilities. If you're doing that, you're intentionally crippling your character.

You know what I meant. If you are focused on stamina and concentrating on weapon abilities, than you're not going to match a ranged magicka user in the current meta. You know the ones... the NB's who all want to go DW/Bow and pump all their points into Stamina. As a NB myself, I wouldn't even want them in my group.

nerevarine1138

Vuron wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

Do any of you think that you could find 12 players running stamina builds that could complete the trials?

It might be possible to complete the trials with a few players that are less than optimal. A good group of 11 might be able to complete it with a level 1 tagging along, but that doesn't mean certain builds aren't bad.

If half your group are non-staff users or stamina based? It might not be possible. It's not really about play style or preference. There are DPS requirements which, at the moment, can't seem to be met by stamina builds.

Well, a 12-man group of stamina-based characters would probably fail due to the lack of healers.

But your problem is in thinking of stamina builds as builds that use exclusively stamina-based abilities. If you're doing that, you're intentionally crippling your character.

You know what I meant. If you are focused on stamina and concentrating on weapon abilities, than you're not going to match a ranged magicka user in the current meta. You know the ones... the NB's who all want to go DW/Bow and pump all their points into Stamina. As a NB myself, I wouldn't even want them in my group.

Yes, if they pumped all their points into stamina, they're probably going to have issues. If they balanced their point distribution and used their abilities which allow for insanely overcharged stamina regen, then you have a Nightblade with almost 100% uptime on all their hotbar abilities. Which is why my PvE guild likes bringing me along for Craglorn content.

Nox_Aeterna

I wont deny all classes are "viable" to a point. If you use good sense when making the build , usually it is possible to do the content , just like while not all builds allow the classes to solo vet content , all classes with resonable builds are doing so right now.

Still , being a player and knowing that my class sucks at role X when compared to others , makes not even want to try role X even if it is "viable", it is that simple.

In other "theme park" MMOs , this usually is not a problem , since the class have roles and the balance is so much better , when you pick a tank , you have a tank , even if there a small gap , it is nothing huge , that is not the case in ESO.

When you first start , they dont tell what each class is focused at and due to the nature of the 1/50 lvls , which are quite easy and dont really test the player , you wont notice it till you hit vet ranks.

Which for me was too late to change class anyway , cause i refuse to roll an alt just to play all the same content over and over.

So yeah , zen will lose players like me if all they have in mind is "viable" , because i wont settle for just that , but how many players that represents and if this loss makes it worth it to have huge balance headaches i dont know.

Vuron

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

Do any of you think that you could find 12 players running stamina builds that could complete the trials?

It might be possible to complete the trials with a few players that are less than optimal. A good group of 11 might be able to complete it with a level 1 tagging along, but that doesn't mean certain builds aren't bad.

If half your group are non-staff users or stamina based? It might not be possible. It's not really about play style or preference. There are DPS requirements which, at the moment, can't seem to be met by stamina builds.

Well, a 12-man group of stamina-based characters would probably fail due to the lack of healers.

But your problem is in thinking of stamina builds as builds that use exclusively stamina-based abilities. If you're doing that, you're intentionally crippling your character.

You know what I meant. If you are focused on stamina and concentrating on weapon abilities, than you're not going to match a ranged magicka user in the current meta. You know the ones... the NB's who all want to go DW/Bow and pump all their points into Stamina. As a NB myself, I wouldn't even want them in my group.

Yes, if they pumped all their points into stamina, they're probably going to have issues. If they balanced their point distribution and used their abilities which allow for insanely overcharged stamina regen, then you have a Nightblade with almost 100% uptime on all their hotbar abilities. Which is why my PvE guild likes bringing me along for Craglorn content.

Or you could go a magicka based NB and still have 100% uptime on your abilities with right gear and be even better.

But, the OP's question was very open ended and vague. The short answer is that sure, any class, any build, or any combination can do the end-game as long as the rest of the group can make up for them in the areas they lack (mostly dps). It's no different than other games when you can carry others.

If you are looking for the absolute best possible group to try to achieve the best possible time, there will also be a specific combination that you want. This is the basis of min-maxing.

Orizuru

Lynnessa wrote: »

So, there is a lot of talk about certain classes being inferior to the point of being useless (i.e. "groups are turning down NB"), and about how any build that doesn't depend on light armor and staves is ineffective.

I have to ask... are the high level dungeons and trials doable with nightblades or templars (these are the useless classes, right?) or by groups with builds that have nothing to do with light armor and staves?

If it *is* possible to complete the dungeon with a more varied group composition... then isn't it safe to say that the players are the ones keeping nightblades/templars/non-staff-users from being used?

I mean, if the only difference is finishing a dungeon 5 minutes faster than you would without the nightblade, then it seems like player preferences are as much of a problem as anything in the game's design. It's not that we CAN'T "play the way we want" it's that people have decided that their way is the only way.

Or is it just straight up impossible to do the content if half of your group is nightblades/templars/non-staff-users?

Think of it this way... If you are the group leader and you have one spot left to fill for a dps, which would you prefer? A Dragonknight with a subpar build that does 1000 dps on a 5 minute parse, or a perfectly built Nightblade that does 700 dps on a 5 minute parse?

It may be players making the decision to exclude the NB, but its only because the game systems make it more ideal to do so.

Lynnessa

Thanks for the responses, guys. I play a nightblade, and I admit that the clamor on the forum has me slightly concerned that I'll be left out when I finally reach the (in?)famous veteran content.

I really really like group dungeons in this game. What a blast! The last few I've run, we've had near wipes on the last boss--and I was the last one standing. I made my character a mage before I knew that light armor and staves were the only viable options, and it's working great so far (I've reached level 28... yeah, I'm levelling slowly, I know... I don't have the time for games that I used to). I can off-heal and even off-tank if my ultimate is up...

Despite my concerns, I'm gonna stick with my nightblade and hope for the best. Cheers!

Lynnessa

Oh, about the staves. I only have one restoration ability slotted: Combat Prayer--though I will slot Illustrious Healing if I know extra heals will be needed. And only one destruction ability: Blockade of Elements (I use lightning staff for the splash AoE with the passive). The rest of my abilities are class spells. I'm using a pure magicka build, and I'm thinking it will stay that way even if I do end up juggling my skill slots around later on. See you in game