Suggestion about the Bolt Escape change

Hearts

Im all for the 50% more magicka cost change, i'm a sorcerer and sorcerers who bail out annoy me too as i have no way to catch up, i could spam bolt escape to catch up but by the time I run out of magicka and catch up, they will have regained magicka and just bolt escape away again.. So im all for this change, what i don't like is the every 4 second debuff change and let me explain why.

My style of PvP, especially in 1v1 is that i'm as fragile as glass, i can't take hits because my play style is based around mobility, i use bolt escape once or twice to get away from the Nightblade or DK who can kill me in a few hits and i attack from a small range. This is working perfectly for me and the difference between me and a runner is that I use my bolt escape maybe once every few seconds while a runner use it every second. Making it a 4 second debuff ruins my playstyle as well.
I would suggest changing it to a 2 second debuff, tops 3 seconds.

Now people might hate bolt escape so much that they will automatically hate my idea but If the change goes through with 4 second debuff I will be forced to change my play style to one with defensive buffs like Annulment, bound armor, Critical Surge and harness magicka and spam Impulse and what's going to happen then? People are going to complain about Impulse being too OP (tbh, it kinda does a lot of damage) which will then force my play style to change to something else until i'm forced to run a sorcerer with twin blade spec just to have a chance to do something..

Kayvee

I think that 4 seconds is the perfect amount of time. I would say 5 or 6 seconds would be better, however that's likely due to my DK bias lol

What I don't understand is how this change is forcing you to change your playstyle... it's not like you're locked out of casting it within those 4 seconds it'll just cost more.

Hearts

Yeah but the cost for a blink will cost about 400 magicka, its going to take about 22% of my magicka just casting one blink, and thats magicka i definitely going to need to do damage with. Thats where the problem lies which in turn won't make the build very viable.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

a smart man would use elusive mist during those four seconds

Kayvee

Hearts wrote: »

Yeah but the cost for a blink will cost about 400 magicka, its going to take about 22% of my magicka just casting one blink, and thats magicka i definitely going to need to do damage with. Thats where the problem lies which in turn won't make the build very viable.

So you'll have to be more strategic with your timing is all. If you *need* a second blink it's still there, but there's an opportunity cost. I just don't see any compelling argument to decrease the time below 4 seconds.

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

a smart man would use elusive mist during those four seconds

Not everyone is a vampire

Comaetilico

if you blink in the RIGHT direction you only need one blink to get out of range of everthing but snipe and snipe have it's casting time to make up for it's range ^^ if you need the second blink it means that you either are compltely cirlced by enemy (and should not be able to survive alone if they have at least the IQ of a slug ^^') or blinked in the wrong direction... but you still get the chance to blink again... that is with the sacrifice of lots of magika and so you offensive capabilities...

PS: I'm a sorc ^^

Hearts

Well, im using streak so im going to create an argument for that. If the player isn't that good then i simply streak through him, stun him for 3 sec and nuke him, hes dead within 2 streaks. I mainly use Curse and Crystal Fragment for my damage..
Now if I fight against a good player who knows when to block I go with a different tactic, I streak twice away to get a good 20 meter distance from him and then I start nuking him and then pretty much rince and repeat with the occasional weapon switch to resto staff for shields.
The problem I have with one streak is this, if i streak the complete opposite direction of the enemy to get the biggest distance as possible, that still isn't enough, it takes about 1 second to cast the streak and he already knows what direction i'm heading which means hes already running that way, if hes a DK then he simply charges, nightblades can run fast enough and templars.. well they suck at the moment.
Now if i streak once then i get about a 5-10 meter advantage, which is melee range already or close to melee, which means i'm forced to cast a simple spell like curse or crushing shock (If i do use crushing shock), but doing this does so little damage that i pretty much get no damage out of this, most classes simply automatically outheal this with certain spells as everyone have some form of healing.
Thats where my problem lies with one streak, now I don't pvp much, i'm more of a PvE oriented guy and i'm only rank 10 in Alliance War and not the most skilled guy in PvP, i'm still learning and changing some things around but my main play style is still my mobility.
I might be doing something wrong I guess, but even if one streak is enough, it does not take 4 seconds for the guy to catch up to you, it takes about a second. So unless you want to tank someone for 3 seconds (which i cant cause im a glass canon) then you are forced to streak away once again.

AshleyLee

At veteran level, with passives in the right places ur bolt escape should be down close to 200 magika cost, 250 if u dont have good jewerly. i've test it some on the PTS and am ok with how it works, the tooltip updates during that time as well. so u can see from that the increased cost.

Mojomonkeyman

Comaetilico wrote: »

if you blink in the RIGHT direction you only need one blink to get out of range of everthing but snipe and snipe have it's casting time to make up for it's range ^^ if you need the second blink it means that you either are compltely cirlced by enemy (and should not be able to survive alone if they have at least the IQ of a slug ^^') or blinked in the wrong direction... but you still get the chance to blink again... that is with the sacrifice of lots of magika and so you offensive capabilities...

PS: I'm a sorc ^^

You know, there is a thing called terrain. The "right" direction is not always an available option. Most gap closers have far more range than BE, means 2 BE is sometimes indeed necessary to get yourself some breathing room.

I have similar concerns as OP, and I feel the approach to bring BE in line is short-sighted and will hurt sorcs who carefully use BE already more than warlock/seducer BE spammers. Additionally, hybrid and stamina based builds who already struggle with ressource management (since stamina is needed to actually fight not just an magicka replenisher) will get hurt the most.

I`m all for changes that punish spammy (aka bad) play but reward creative use and/or non streamlined playstyles. Unforunately, the nerf does the exact opposite. Especially in combination with the dark deal change.

Regards

Truno

You can now move with dark deal. Just BE twice then use that while still going away for more distance that'll get back your magic stats.

Mojomonkeyman

Truno wrote: »

You can now move with dark deal. Just BE twice then use that while still going away for more distance that'll get back your magic stats.

As pointed out before, there are different builds than just max magicka (use stamina as magicka replenisher) out there, hopefully more in the future. Dark deal becomes obsolete when stamina is needed to actually fight. Do you even read before posting?

Nijjion

Sorcs choices I have here.

1. Have current nerf and have it cost 50% more magicka each cast e.g. 100 -> 150 -> 225 -> 337.5
2. Have it on a charge system where it costs the same magicka, you have 2 charges and each charge takes 8 seconds to come back. A cast of BE takes up 1 charge.
3. Have it on a 4-5 second cooldown.

So pick 1 of the above.


There might be a few other suggestions of a nerf but these are the best imo... currently I see the current impending change to be the best nerf it the cost stacks. You can use it for the short term like any other but spamming BE won't be possible... heck though even on a full magicka you can still prob get away from most fights with the change so it still might not fix the problem, though it would stop sorcs getting away from fights they tried to fight but lost as obviously used up magicka during the fight.

Truno

You have the option to burn all your stamina or all your magic and when burning stamina gain hp. Think about it this way you went the distance someone sprints in a blink while being able to choose which stat to burn while the people chasing have only 1 option burn stamina. All they are doing is upping the resource requirement to make it more on par with the stamina you would burn if u sprinted it.

Mojomonkeyman

Why not just adding an 100% increase in cost each use after the third use within 4-6 seconds time frame. This would exponentially increase the cost the more often it is queued but give enough room for builds not relying on light armor/warlock/seducer and do exactly what people want.

Mana cost per use: 200-200-200-400-800-1600

The penalty for continuous use within short time would be even higher but it would still be possible to toy with non-mainstream builds.

Regards

Truno

That would allow a huge gap breaker with a not too high mana cost and heck you can even choose to burn stamina. For that all you would have to do is bolt 3 times jog away from enemy for a couple seconds then bolt again three times. Nothing would change from how it is now in the live game if it was implemented like that. You speak of resource management for hybrid builds but it is still better than the people chasing u burning stamina and as u kindly reminded me as it is needed to fight.

Mojomonkeyman

@Truno‌

I think you never played a hybrid build with sorc, to be honest. It already is a pain to keep both ressources reasonably high fighting one enemy. As soon as another add drops in, it gets really bad.

To leave the first uses untouched is exactly what would give these builds a bit of viability. It would be still far worse than now, don`t you get that?

You can just take the spell out of the game completely, I mean it is an escape tool with pityful range. You need to cast it twice to even get outta range of most projectiles and gap closers.

4-6 seconds inbetween each 3 time use would give every class/build plenty of time to catch up, far more than now. But it would solve what is considered a problem: The infinite casting of it (4 times and many more up to 15 with max magicka and seducer/warlock).

Please try to think objective, what you are trying to do right now, is rendering it completely useless for every build that does not rely on max magicka + related sets. It would pigeonhole every sorc into the most common setup.

That is not what I want, nor is it what anyone would want who wants less magicka reliant builds to flourish.

Edit: Please keep in mind, that sorcerors do not have the same sustain melee abilites such as dks (plenty of defensive abilities), nightblades (target reset through stealth, life leech) and templars (heal, eclipse). Playing with distance and terrain is the only way to go with sorcerors, when not choosing to go 1h/shield (which is still far too strong imo, because of, you might guess it, the benefits to ressource management concerning stamina).

Following your logic, a stam based sorc would just be an easy kill for anybody and their pets.

Regards

Truno

You do realize the 50 percent does not stack. Also you are right I play a nightblade but the thing you dont understand though either is while you bolt away we burn our stamina which is used for all stamina builds. Going from 200 too 300 magic requirement wont kill you. Running to catch up might just drop us low enough stam we cant efficiently block/roll/break anything which leaves all stam builds fodder without stam. And that is bs that its making other builds useless atm I'm a nb with within 150 points of being overcharged in both hp and magic and being a lot overcharged in stam. Even me being stam build I have plenty of magic left for whatever I want and normally reserve it for getting away with dark cloak. You should be able to run whatever build you want that 50% wont ruin any build.

Mojomonkeyman

So how can you expect to give advice on class balance on a class you don`t even play, please tell me that with a serious face? I wouldn`t even dare to give NB balance hints.

Edit: Yeah, I am aware the 50% doesn`t stack. Doesn`t change the fact that 50% increase after first use is crippling EVERY build instead of just the problematic ones. Wow, the ignorance.

I could turn all your arguments around with NB specific skills, such as:"omg, omg, no class should be able to reset target with stealth infight, sooo unfair...!" But you know what, I don`t, because these differences is what makes games interesting.

Regards

Truno

Called the pts. Ever heard of a template.

Edit: wow. What are you even talking about now with whatever ur saying about nbs but whatever back on the real topic. And you are actually somewhat right it does cripple every build with BE but right now in live it is too much and a slight increase might yes hurt the build but definately not break it.

Mojomonkeyman

So you use templates to identify balance issues without ever playing concerned class? Genius.

God, I wish mmo forums would apply team liquid balance talk rules. Unless you know what you`re talking about, it is bannable offense.

I cannot take you serious, sorry Mr. Template.

Truno

If you dont want to take my opinion dont. But I agree that this was the proper way to go about the nerf.

Edit: sorry I dont want to start a fresh new account and instead take a already vr account with skills leveled sorry live game I dont have a sorc but isn't that what the pts is for huh testing things out. You know I wish a lot of things too, but seriously you should lay off the personal attacks makes you look kind of silly.

Nijjion

Yeah someone who has played PTS said it doesn't stack and increase each cast... you only get the 50% increase once... which is a shame as it won't fix the problem... it just changes 12 casts of BE to about 7-8.... still able to get away from most fights if full magicka. Though it could stop sorcs escaping when they are in a losing fight, which i can live with. Though I would probably rather my #2 suggestion above now.

And they even get the buff with being able to use dark exchange while moving which helps a lot.

Truno

I think that would be a tad too restricting. Realistically the nerf could and possibly should have been more damaging.

Mojomonkeyman

Truno wrote: »

If you dont want to take my opinion dont. But I agree that this was the proper way to go about the nerf.

Edit: sorry I dont want to start a fresh new account and instead take a already vr account with skills leveled sorry live game I dont have a sorc but isn't that what the pts is for huh testing things out. You know I wish a lot of things too, but seriously you should lay off the personal attacks makes you look kind of silly.

Huh, when did I get personal? I`m just questioning your expertise on balance limited to a few hours of template testing on PTR. Sorry, if I came off rude, but imho I wouldn`t qualify for Nightblade or DK balancing either, because I lack the experience of at least a few hundreds hours of playtime.

I mean, the suggestion I gave is far more of a nerf than the one implemented on the PTR. The one big difference is, that my solution doesn`t hurt ressource management of the thoughtful, well executed BE usage while the PTR version does. And additionally it really hurts builds not maxing magicka.

Regards

Dissentinel

Hearts wrote: »

Im all for the 50% more magicka cost change, i'm a sorcerer and sorcerers who bail out annoy me too as i have no way to catch up, i could spam bolt escape to catch up but by the time I run out of magicka and catch up, they will have regained magicka and just bolt escape away again.. So im all for this change, what i don't like is the every 4 second debuff change and let me explain why.

My style of PvP, especially in 1v1 is that i'm as fragile as glass, i can't take hits because my play style is based around mobility, i use bolt escape once or twice to get away from the Nightblade or DK who can kill me in a few hits and i attack from a small range. This is working perfectly for me and the difference between me and a runner is that I use my bolt escape maybe once every few seconds while a runner use it every second. Making it a 4 second debuff ruins my playstyle as well.
I would suggest changing it to a 2 second debuff, tops 3 seconds.

Now people might hate bolt escape so much that they will automatically hate my idea but If the change goes through with 4 second debuff I will be forced to change my play style to one with defensive buffs like Annulment, bound armor, Critical Surge and harness magicka and spam Impulse and what's going to happen then? People are going to complain about Impulse being too OP (tbh, it kinda does a lot of damage) which will then force my play style to change to something else until i'm forced to run a sorcerer with twin blade spec just to have a chance to do something..

Eight forbid you have to change your playstyle. At least your skills work properly

NordJitsu

Bolt Escape is broken and useless now. You will see this fall of the bar of 100% of competitive PvPers now.

Remove the 50% cost increase on subsequent casts or remove the 4 sec magicka regen debuff. Better yet, remove both.

There aren't supposed to be cool downs in this game. This ability has two cool downs.

Hearts

Eternalflame wrote: »

Hearts wrote: »

Im all for the 50% more magicka cost change, i'm a sorcerer and sorcerers who bail out annoy me too as i have no way to catch up, i could spam bolt escape to catch up but by the time I run out of magicka and catch up, they will have regained magicka and just bolt escape away again.. So im all for this change, what i don't like is the every 4 second debuff change and let me explain why.

My style of PvP, especially in 1v1 is that i'm as fragile as glass, i can't take hits because my play style is based around mobility, i use bolt escape once or twice to get away from the Nightblade or DK who can kill me in a few hits and i attack from a small range. This is working perfectly for me and the difference between me and a runner is that I use my bolt escape maybe once every few seconds while a runner use it every second. Making it a 4 second debuff ruins my playstyle as well.
I would suggest changing it to a 2 second debuff, tops 3 seconds.

Now people might hate bolt escape so much that they will automatically hate my idea but If the change goes through with 4 second debuff I will be forced to change my play style to one with defensive buffs like Annulment, bound armor, Critical Surge and harness magicka and spam Impulse and what's going to happen then? People are going to complain about Impulse being too OP (tbh, it kinda does a lot of damage) which will then force my play style to change to something else until i'm forced to run a sorcerer with twin blade spec just to have a chance to do something..

Eight forbid you have to change your playstyle. At least your skills work properly

I think i did mention what the future holds if people like me change playstyle :P Given the fact that pure sorcerers only have one other good playstyle to change into if mobility is gone.

dracobains_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

Bolt Escape is broken and useless now. You will see this fall of the bar of 100% of competitive PvPers now.

Remove the 50% cost increase on subsequent casts or remove the 4 sec magicka regen debuff. Better yet, remove both.

There aren't supposed to be cool downs in this game. This ability has two cool downs.

For your play it may seem so but I play regularly with 4 sorcs and none of them think it makes the skill useless. All of them plan on keeping it. Sure they would rather have it as it is now because of how powerful it can be. Whenever our group gets ran over by a zerg one of them blinks away and comes back to res everyone later. It is hard to remember the handful of times they couldn't successfully get away it happened so little. There may be some issues with the Sorc class but I do not think this is an inappropriate adjustment.