A Buff is still a Nerf

Ser Lobo

Lets say you have one class doing awesome, and three not doing so well. Some of the geniuses on these forums seem to feel that the thing to do is buff the three classes (or, more accurately, the two classes) instead of nerfing the one class.

The most common reason given is that, by nerfing this very popular class, you will betray a large portion of your playerbase and thus, will cause them to quit (even though many players of that class will recognize that the ability or class is too good, and while they may be upset at the changes, they may also be willing to adapt).

This is sound logic, right? Well let me throw a twist at you, simultaneously explaining why ALL games nerf first, and buff later.

Even if you buff, you will still end up betraying a large portion of your playerbase and thus, will cause them to quit!



I know, I know ... this doesn't make a lot of sense. At least, not at first. Buffs make happy customers, and nerfs make unhappy customers. But there's more than one way to nerf a class.

You can remove a classes capabilities, thus making it harder on them. Or, you can improve the capabilities of the mobs and environment ... thus making it harder on them.



The end goal of any nerfs and buffs is generally 'balance'. Some see the only real important balance in a game being the balance between players, but I have witnessed time and again that this is no more or less important then the balance of player versus environment.

If a player kills mobs TOO quickly, they finish content TOO easily, they won't be entertained. Any player who's ever turned on god mode knows this is true. Fun for 10 minutes, boring after that.

So developers in their right minds approach the concept of player versus environment with a goal in mind. A defined quality of 'difficulty'. ESO's defined difficulty can be seen in their naming scheme. Solo content for solo players. Group content for groups. Veteran content for veteran players.

An example of a game imbalance would be if players of any class were capable of doing group content solo. This would obviously go against the simplistic definition of balance I defined last paragraph.



So to bring it back around, how does a buff become a nerf? Well, if the game developers goal is to make group content require a group, and one class is capable of doing group content completely solo, and they then buff all the other classes so that they can ALSO do group content completely solo, then the last step is to buff the environment so that it once again becomes group content. A solution that could have been achieved in only one step ... nerfing the powerful class.

Plus, let's talk about customer betrayal: do you betray one large group of players who favor a powerful class, or nearly every one of your players? How can a buffed player feel betrayed, you wonder? If you buff their power significantly and then buff the mobs, they are simply teased with power, and many will be upset when it's taken from them ... just like those of the prime class would be.

Not to mention that raising the difficulty as the last step will still make the prime class feel betrayed. Whereas your nerf upset one group, now your buffs have upset everyone.



To recap:
- Nerf a class (or two), have lots of players from those two classes pissed at you, but achieve gameplay balance with few changes.
Or
- Buff a class (or two), making those players happy.
- Buff the mobs to achieve gameplay balance.
- Make nearly every player unhappy since they have all been reduced in efficiency.
Or
- Buff a class (or two), making those players happy.
- Leave the mobs as is, leaving the game unbalanced.
- Have a longer-lasting issue as players leave the game due to it being too easy.


Whichever way a developer chooses, they lose. But the easiest path, the nerf, is always the one they choose, because in my opinion (and apparently game developers worldwide), it actually comes with the least amount of repercussions.

GrimCyclone

A buff is always better than a nerf.
At least in the eyes of those effected by either.

Ser Lobo

GrimCyclone wrote: »

A buff is always better than a nerf.
At least in the eyes of those effected by either.

Until you buff the mobs, and then EVERYONE is nerfed.

GrimCyclone

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Until you buff the mobs, and then EVERYONE is nerfed.

Yeah like what they did with the VR before they got roared at and reverted it the next day. I remember one guy on the forums all like, "I welcome the challenge!" lolol. That guy must be so badass. Hell, at VR7 in VR5 purple gear, I'm barely making it sometimes in 2-mage groups of 3. Runes or not, they're hitting me for 33% more damage than they did at VR6 just a zone away. I'm upgrading to VR7 purple soon, but still. I bet most don't.

Nightblade siphoning, bow, dw, not a vampire btw.

zgrssd

Well said and I can only agree.

Indeed the current problem seems to be somewhat to powerfull magica based abilities. They nerf them down to the level of stamian abilities (solving a ton of issues based in magica beign favoured).
Then they can re-balance the PvE content for the common ground of Stam focus/ Magica Focus/Stam&Magica mix build.
At least that is what I think they are doing.

Phantorang

Very well said OP

ferzalrwb17_ESO

A nerf is a nerf. A buff is a buff. Wall-of-text-fail.

ErykGrimm

Every class melts through content if they wear a dress and wave a stick. The imbalances in this game are beyond any one class or another. Developers should be fixing broken skills and broken passives and addressing the disparity between armors and weapons. Night blades have been broken since before november of last year. And templars got broken during beta. Fine tuning individual class skills before getting all the classes working as intended only creates more balance issues and nerfs for the future. Edit: auto correct fail

AinGeal

There are some good points there.

You nerf one and the players of that one are unhappy but the players of the other three are happy.

You buff the other three and the players of those three are happy but the players of that one will be unhappy.

Unhappy they didn't get buffed.
Unhappy because they knew they were OP vs the other three and now they're not.

Dayv

A nerf is still a buff like a kick to the groin is still a pat on the back. Why not just nerf every ability or better still break some classes skills to match other classes with broken skills, it's quicker and easier than fixing them and balance can be achieved quicker. And everyone will be happy sooner.

Bhakura

What if you buff the nerf? or nerf the buff ...

ErykGrimm

Bhakura wrote: »

What if you buff the nerf? or nerf the buff ...

I hear 2 nerfs make a buff.

Kililin

explain to me, in no more than 2 sentences, why a buff to templar ultimates is a nerf to anyone.

AlexDougherty

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

GrimCyclone wrote: »

A buff is always better than a nerf.
At least in the eyes of those effected by either.

Until you buff the mobs, and then EVERYONE is nerfed.

I get what you are saying. The problem is the way they are doing the Nerfs isn't working.

If they were doing the Nerfs properly, then they would be rebalancing the Mobs anyway.

They aren't, they are just treating the Symptoms, and wondering why the underlying causes are still causing issues. If the started Buffing the Classes, and then the mobs, they would be fixing some of the underlying issues. Because they would be fixing the game as a whole, not just the bit they think is broken.

And most of us would then be happy.

zgrssd

AlexDougherty wrote: »

I get what you are saying. The problem is the way they are doing the Nerfs isn't working.

If they were doing the Nerfs properly, then they would be rebalancing the Mobs anyway.

They aren't, they are just treating the Symptoms, and wondering why the underlying causes are still causing issues. If the started Buffing the Classes, and then the mobs, they would be fixing some of the underlying issues. Because they would be fixing the game as a whole, not just the bit they think is broken.

Actually there is the mistake. Buffing the other classes/stamina skills would be treating the symptoms.
The illness is magica based abilities being better then they should be. So they are nerfing those to be more in line with thier target.

After everyone is on roughly the same level, regardless of Stam, Magica or mix build, they can properly balance the mobs.
That way they archieve PvP balance faster (and PvP is a major part of lategame MMO). And PvE balance will be easier to do.

smercgames_ESO

Too many simple minded people only see things as buffs and nerfs. You can take a skill that does 100 damage and increase it to 1000 but increase the health of a mob by 10x and they will be happier because OMG MY SKILL NOW HITS FOR 1000!! when in reality it hits for the same exact amount it's just you see a flashier bigger number. Everything is relative but people just like to whine when they see a number reduced. Using WoW as an example the numbers are so stupid massive right now it's redic. The expansion is reducing the numbers supposedly by a significant amount so you don't see 984728396487236478263! fly across your screen when you hit something.

When 1 skill is blatantly outperforming the other skills of any other classes or even of the same class then they need to balance the skill. Having 5 must have skills doesn't encourage diversity. Having multiple skills that fill similar roles in different ways encourages diversity.

You can't fix people who are too dense to understand what balance is.

Cimos

Or your just balance classes by weighing all the factors like PvE PvP etc and pick the best option....lol. Were a lot of people complaining about buffs over nerfs? I dont understand the reasoning behind this thread.

Scenario: skill A makes all 4 classes balanced in PvE, so you need the skill. Skill A makes that class overpowered in PvP. Removing or nerfing the skill would make it not viable in PvE, which would unbalance PvE. Therefore, the best option is to buff other classes in PvP with counter abilities to counteract Skill A. The counter skills/buffs would have to be implemented in a way that does not offset the balance in PvE.

Ser Lobo

Cimos wrote: »

Or your just balance classes by weighing all the factors like PvE PvP etc and pick the best option....lol. Were a lot of people complaining about buffs over nerfs? I dont understand the reasoning behind this thread.

Scenario: skill A makes all 4 classes balanced in PvE, so you need the skill. Skill A makes that class overpowered in PvP. Removing or nerfing the skill would make it not viable in PvE, which would unbalance PvE. Therefore, the best option is to buff other classes in PvP with counter abilities to counteract Skill A. The counter skills/buffs would have to be implemented in a way that does not offset the balance in PvE.

The complaint is against a very broad mindset that believes that nerfs are bad, buffs are good. As I've tried to discuss in the op, this mindest is really skimming over all the details, and is very misleading.

To your scenario, I offer Scenario B: Ultimate A is used by the vast majority of one class. Players participating in Trials almost exclusively use ultimate A. Many players choose ultimate A because ultimate B and C in that class are good, but not nearly as good as A.

Ultimate A is also simultaneously performing better and showing better user metrics than any other ultimate in any other class, allowing players to solo group content and some bosses with optimal builds dedicated to using ultimate A.

Developers have the option of either nerfing ultimate A (thus making ultimate B and C more appealing and usable as well as putting these in line with other classes), or buffing EVERY OTHER ULTIMATE in the game to be comparable.

No additional skills or countermeasures need to be invented, coded, tested and balanced in order to compensate. A rather simple, straightforward nerf resolves the issue entirely.

One change with rather predictable ripples, or countless changes, where each change adds even more work and possible error.

AinGeal

Kililin wrote: »

explain to me, in no more than 2 sentences, why a buff to templar ultimates is a nerf to anyone.

A buff to temps will mean that they don't suck as hard when compared to the other classes. Since a nerf to the other three classes would mean temps not sucking as hard when compared to the other three, there is effectively no difference between buffing the one or nerfing the other three in term of balancing.

ErykGrimm

Nerfs are bad when they don't address the actual issue they were intended to. Nerfs on class skills and passives are bad when there are armor and weapon abilities/passives that are not even close to being balanced. It is impossible to address class skills when there isn't even a baseline to compare to. A majority of the nerfs that have rolled out onto the live server have been shots into the dark. There-in, lies the issue.

Ser Lobo

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Nerfs are bad when they don't address the actual issue they were intended to. Nerfs on class skills and passives are bad when there are armor and weapon abilities/passives that are not even close to being balanced. It is impossible to address class skills when there isn't even a baseline to compare to. A majority of the nerfs that have rolled out onto the live server have been shots into the dark. There-in, lies the issue.

I actually agree with this. There is a discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds that needs addressed, and from the Road Ahead, this seems to be skipped over.

I don't think any major changes have been made to the power capabilities of either DragonKnights or Nightblades to make us too far gone, but I do wish it was on their minds.

biglead

A nerf is a nerf of curf of curf and nobody can talk to a nerf of curf, unless of curf that nerf of curf is the famous Mr.Beeeeeth....ezda.

NordJitsu

It doesn't make sense even after you try to explain it OP.

There are multiple ways to balance classes. The worst way is dramatic and ham-handed nerfs all at once. A slight better (but still pretty bad) way to do it would be to nerf class skills incrementally. This is really only necessary in extreme cases. The only class skill that needed even incremental nerfs at launch was Dark Talons (and the nerfs they applied were modest, incremental, and perfect.)

The best way to balance things is to increase the under performing skills for the under performing classes (since they tend to under perform in both PvE and PvP) or add new counter play options to the skills that are currently too powerful.

Samadhi

A nerf is just a buff to other play-styles.
Skill got nerfed? Now other forms of play are more viable and that skill is no longer considered a requisite to properly playing the class.

Everyone must rejoice for nerfs. Rejoice!

ErykGrimm

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Nerfs are bad when they don't address the actual issue they were intended to. Nerfs on class skills and passives are bad when there are armor and weapon abilities/passives that are not even close to being balanced. It is impossible to address class skills when there isn't even a baseline to compare to. A majority of the nerfs that have rolled out onto the live server have been shots into the dark. There-in, lies the issue.

I actually agree with this. There is a discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds that needs addressed, and from the Road Ahead, this seems to be skipped over.

I don't think any major changes have been made to the power capabilities of either DragonKnights or Nightblades to make us too far gone, but I do wish it was on their minds.

I am apprehensive, at best. That road ahead post seemed to indicate stripping a lot of the survivability for DK. In light of how limited dk crowd control has become, there very well may not be a whole lot left to the class' s identity. From a tank/group leader's perspective. The class would still make a good mage, I suppose. But its name should be changed to pyromancer. If dk was intended to be a mage, i would like to see templar in position in which it could tank better. As I would switch to my templar if that were the case.

Ser Lobo

ErykGrimm wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Nerfs are bad when they don't address the actual issue they were intended to. Nerfs on class skills and passives are bad when there are armor and weapon abilities/passives that are not even close to being balanced. It is impossible to address class skills when there isn't even a baseline to compare to. A majority of the nerfs that have rolled out onto the live server have been shots into the dark. There-in, lies the issue.

I actually agree with this. There is a discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds that needs addressed, and from the Road Ahead, this seems to be skipped over.

I don't think any major changes have been made to the power capabilities of either DragonKnights or Nightblades to make us too far gone, but I do wish it was on their minds.

I am apprehensive, at best. That road ahead post seemed to indicate stripping a lot of the survivability for DK. In light of how limited dk crowd control has become, there very well may not be a whole lot left to the class' s identity. From a tank/group leader's perspective. The class would still make a good mage, I suppose. But its name should be changed to pyromancer. If dk was intended to be a mage, i would like to see templar in position in which it could tank better. As I would switch to my templar if that were the case.

In similar straits is the Nightblade. While the coming magicka-boosts will affect class skills as well, it's still feels like they are crafting Nightmages instead of Nightblades.

I don't doubt that stamina will see it's day and get it's fixes. And it's possible that ZOS is trying to work on balancing the magicka resource first and getting it where they want it, setting the bar for when they buff the stamina resource.

But I think it's still a month or two before we get to find out what their goals are in that direction.

Bromburak

The Dragonknight is still a bit stronger than intended, and we’ll be making some small changes over time to the class. Our intent—no matter what you read on the internet—is not to nerf DKs into Oblivion (so to speak), but to continue tweaking them until they are in line with the survivability of the other classes.
We also know that Nightblades are reporting they are underpowered. I know all about this, as my main character is a Nightblade, and I’ve been running into some of these same issues myself. Again, just like the DK, we’re not going to make wholesale changes quickly; instead, we’re going to make small, incremental adjustments until NB class abilities fall in line with other class abilities.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/06/04/the-road-ahead--june-4th?ref=home

Enough said!

Ser Lobo

Bromburak wrote: »

The Dragonknight is still a bit stronger than intended, and we’ll be making some small changes over time to the class. Our intent—no matter what you read on the internet—is not to nerf DKs into Oblivion (so to speak), but to continue tweaking them until they are in line with the survivability of the other classes.
We also know that Nightblades are reporting they are underpowered. I know all about this, as my main character is a Nightblade, and I’ve been running into some of these same issues myself. Again, just like the DK, we’re not going to make wholesale changes quickly; instead, we’re going to make small, incremental adjustments until NB class abilities fall in line with other class abilities.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/06/04/the-road-ahead--june-4th?ref=home

Enough said!

I do agree with their approach. Slow and sure. Fixes along with nerfs, and I believe all the major fixes have already happened.

Stratti

Sticks and dresses seem to be what this game is about

zgrssd

ss.ioannidisnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Sticks and dresses seem to be what this game is about

Yes, currently the balance favrous mana abiltiies. Thanks Captain Obvious, I am sure the redudancy department is proud of your diligent work.[/witty but hopefully non-insulting remark].

They are nerfing mana abilities mostly. And they are nerfing those of classes taht are currently too strong. I am sure tehy either plan to nerf them down to stam abilities or they buff stam abilities after class ability balance has been mostly archeived (the same point they rebalance PvE content).