On stamina the one ressource wich is expended to fast and serve no purpose

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

While stamina and magicka are both used as resource for skills stamina not only have the disadvantage of scaling poorly damage wise but also to be expended and wasted into block/interrupt/running/stun breaker/stealth which leads to stamina build being most useless about 90% of the time thanks to you being out of it without even using your ability. lets have an analysis over stamina over the course of elder scrolls history



Many truth on stamina

1. In all elder scrolls Stamina ALWAYS has regenerated faster as a resource then Magicka has even on equal point level. While there is indeed many ability in the game that help recover stamina at a good rate most of them are limited to the nightblades. Now if I could constantly have the boost to stamina regen active that would be a + but it works only for 6 second and only after using a shadow spell or if you actualy are using the haste ability. In elder scroll online stamina also has the issue of regenerating insanely slower when in battle wich wasn't the case back in skyrim or oblivion

2. In previous elder scrolls game weapon attack especialy power attack consumed stamina and use and the less stamina you had the weaker the damage were. However in ESO stamina attack damage isn't related to remaining stamina on the bar.

3. While magicka always dealth better damage then stamina in the long run (see elder scroll oblivion and most of skyrim when its modded) due to its large consuming cost wich made you more often then enough run out of it quickly and then be forced to run around or wait for your bar to be back stamina had the large advantage of having a very good regeneration rate (3 to 6 time the one of magicka) and consume way less. As a result while you could cast a lightning bolt for 80 damage in oblivion swinging that daedric 30 damage sword 3 time resulted into the same thing but forced you to melee contact and or the use of a very long casting ability (aka bow wich shoot about once every 2 second), While indeed stamina has always been sub par damage wise to magicka it had the advantage of behing usable a lot more and as such compensated for that loss.



How to keep stamina on par with magicka

Ability damage scaling:

Make it so all stamina ability gains a damage bonus of up to 100% based on how much stamina is left on the bar. This alone will justify player not spending their stamina uselessly like in some spamming game. This will also give value to ability wich increase stamina recovery such as haste or nightblade bonuses

Recovery:

Make it so stamina recovery becomes accessible to some point to about all the class or make it a speciality of the nightblade therefore deeming them the actual master of stamina based build.

Change the cost:

Stamina ability should have smaller cost to compensate for the waste from dodging/running/blocking constantly. Having ability wich cost you 1/5 of your bar when used especialy at the current stamina recovery rate is ridiculus. You either need to dramatically reduce their cost to reflect the constant stamina burn reality or make all the other gimmick cost way less or next to nothing at all

Falmer

I agree that stamina needs some balancing issues. I am somewhat a theory-crafter and enjoy making new builds. I have yet to create any stamina build that doesn't start to fall to pieces before long.

My magicka build characters can end any 3 enemy encounter with about 50% of the magicka still left in the tank.

A stamina build character is usually empty before you drop the 2nd enemy and there is almost no chance of regenerating enough in combat to finish the fight. You also can't flee a bit to give your chance to build up some more stamina since you can't run.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

well basically stamina regenerate to slowly in this game versus in other game

temjiu

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

well basically stamina regenerate to slowly in this game versus in other game

And on top of that it ends up getting triple dipped.

Dip one: dodging/blocking. getting out of the fire. critical game necessity. you either dodge and block or you die in VR content. EVERY CLASS NEEDS/DOES THIS

Dip two: Running. I know...less of critical and more of Quality of Life kinda thing. but it is an stamina drain, and in a game where your travel speed is severely limited...and horses are exceedingly expensive, running is the average man's way of getting around. and it SUCKS to get to a fight as a stamina build with no stamina because you ran there so you wouldn't die of boredom. Magick builds do NOT have to worry about this mechanic. obvious bias.

Dip three: stamina skills. after all of the above, somehow we have to drum up enough stamina to hit things. after all of that, even with hitting things, stamina skills are still behind most magick skills in damage or utility.

Magick is dipped...once. and to top it off, there are approximately 6-7x more magick recovery skills and passives in game then there are stamina recovery skills. even if all things were equal, you would expect at the very LEAST that given the triple dipping above, that they would put in a variety of stamina recovery options.

Nope. you have passives that reduce cost, but it's ironic that I can almost cast all day long on my sorc, and not run out of magick...but even with my 2h build and its passive to reduce cost by 20%, 3 skills and im dry.

to add to that you have passives that return mana...not impacting regen stats mind you...no overcharge issues here!. I would give my lifeblood to have a passive in the 2h tree that returned stamina every time i hit with an auto attack, or killed a foe.

Solution:
The disparity is so huge Im amazed it got past QL testing. the quickest and easiest interim fix is simple. create a new resource and move dodging, blocking, and sprinting to this resource. call it whatever.

Everyone has it. investing in stamina increases its amount and regen rates, but other then that they are mutually exclusive. stamina is for stamina base skills ONLY. that would even the playing field in huge ways. balancing damage can come after that. without this solution, it will be nigh impossible to balance stamina skills vs. magick skills, as stamina is already starting at a huge disparity, throwing off most numerical comparisons you can make.

Obscure

Interesting summary. I've seen the problem to often as an excessive power advantage in Magicka usage (higher cost reductions, higher damage, no downside to spamming until your empty, more build versatility since more skills are Magicka based, etc.). But I must admit I never thought recovery would be the best way to resolve the disparity. We all know health recovery has a much lower soft cap than Magicka and Stamina, but if the recovery soft cap for Stamina was greatly increased to say 150, and all existing Stamina recovery enchants and the Medium armor regen passive were doubled, we'd be right on the money to balance resource specialization inequality. Having players that can recover roughly 200 Stamina every 2 seconds would give the Magicka builds a run for their money. The total pool caps would need to remain the same, but rapidly recovering Stamina would resolve the problem with the least amount of effort.

Hmmm. Count me in on this band wagon.

Woolenthreads

I agree in principal but the OP makes me wonder about something which I'll have to get in game to check. I'll edit this later to explain what I was wondering about and how it turned out.

# edit OK, I was wondering if there food buffs stacked. Not only do they not stack they outright replace. I thought it was possible that they might have set up a stacking capacity with food which might make up for the OP's issue. Sadly not. It's a pity really, because with a timer of 35 minutes for boost of say 2 stamina recovery it's sort of meh. If it were stackable then there'd be a really good reason for people to do provisioning. I guess it was wishful thinking.

jeirlightninghoofb14_ESO

I don't seem to have a lot of stam issues, are you using nothing but stam abilities? Only time I run dry really is AOE'ing, but that's normally 4-6 or more mobs and me mashing whirling blades as fast as I can spam the button.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

The calmer I become while playing the better I do. I used to get excited and push buttons a lot. I'd drop things that were already on the ground, stupid stuff, but as I become more detached I find I do it much better.

For my Sorcs, stamina is the thing that powers Silver Bolts. I try not to move around any more than I have to, my Sorcs are weapon's platforms. The Fire Mage, my Dunmer does 'stand in the fire' as it don't do much and if you can always spam Silver Bolts a few times, you can pull situations out of the fire. As well Anchors, are ... run to, and I keep stuff down, it is my purpose.

Cool gets you a long way. Wait for it to come around and you will always be better off.

Shaun98ca2

So I have been posting about this exact thing all over the forums.

Here is the way I look at it and my personal belief.



Magicka is meant to be High Damage low sustainment.
Stamina is meant to be Normal Damage high sustainment.

Stamina relies heavily on Light/Heavy Attacts, which also includes Staffs. The Stamina abilities are more less utility and occasion slight burst that is still lower than Magicka burst.

Magicka is supposed to run out bring a Full Magicka users damage LOWER than that of a Pure Stamina Users.

Stamina ALSO gets the benefit of more survivability due to the Block, Dodge, Stun.

Based on the above premises the real balance issue between Magicka and Stamina is the fact that unless your a Templar.....you really don't run out of Magicka.

Stamina brings more benefits to a standard damage based character where Magicka is supposed to be High Damage High risk as running out of Magicka is truly bad and brings your DPS to grinding halt.

NoMoreChillies

tripple stamina regen
half the stamina cost

sounds good

altrego9920_ESO

I would have to disagree that stamina always did less damage, just make an assassin style in skyrim and 1 shot everything, or if you go older elder scrolls games 2 hand weapons were the way to go for max damage or assassin and nightblades, previous elder scrolls games monks were also a damage powerhouse, the spells could do fairly well but I've never seen anything like a good melee style character in those games. I will agree that stamina lines need to be addressed badly, when people either put only 1 or no stamina skills on both bars combined something is wrong. Certain skills for class abilities should be stamina (NB anyone) at the moment this feels less like ES and more like magic cloth wizard gods online.

dracobains_ESO

I too believe stamina is severely limiting in this game and the basic design has serious flaws. It is nigh impossible to make a pure stam build like many pure magika builds due to their design. You either make a pure magika build using staffs or some hybrid relying heavily on class abilities not melee weapon abilities.

The question I have is how would these suggested changes impact the magika builds or more balanced builds? Most people I know do a stam dump in their rotation. (Silver bolts or whatever) If they can maintain constant ability dumps of the hardest hitting abilities with both magika and Stam due to overall Stam regen being increased won't the disparity still exist?

This is an inquiry not a criticism.

steinernein

The real question is how many of you have actually ran pure stamina builds and looked for a way to make them viable under every and any condition? A lot of the statements I see here run contrary to what I have experienced and what has been done on paper.

When you can reach near or exceed 1k with say something akin to 80/20 you are competitive. When it is possible to infinitely sustain that pace with mainly stamina then you are competitive. When you can survive while sustaining that you are competitive.

Most of you guys begin with a negative view point meaning that you ask 'Why am I gimped?' rather than ask under what conditions can we perform optimally and how far away are we from pure magicka users.

That is not to say that stamina doesn't need adjustments, but I am saying most of you are missing out on use cases that may make stamina builds just as competitive in this atmosphere despite being generally less performant ( performant being either in ease of use or whatever other metric).

Cogo

Either I have a build or playstyle that is very good, or you are doing something wrong.

I am a pure TANK, where stamina is my life blood. My taunt, charge, block, all depend on my stamina, and I manage fine. There also are stamina potions.

Even as a heavy plate tank, I use 2 medium armor just for the stamina regen alone. And there is food that increases or regen your stamina.

Of course I run out of stamina in certain fights, but there is where adaptation comes in. If not teamwork.

Cogo

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

well basically stamina regenerate to slowly in this game versus in other game

Oh, I am sorry, I though this was ESO and not another game.
In Everquest, it took 6 months to reach highest level in the start.....why doesnt it take that in ESO?

dracobains_ESO

All defensive abilities use Stam so you have to sacrifice dps or defensive capabilities. Being a tank has little to do with this conversation as your playstyle is completely different from a DPS point of view. Anyone who claims that a NB Bow build for instance is on par with a destro staff in terms of resource management best be posting some numbers. You can make it function with Siphoning but at a significant cost to dps.

With a full 7pc leather bonus dodge roll will still consume 25% of your stam bar. and every block another 15%. Sprinting is 5% consumption per second and Break Free 50%. Light Armor for Magika builds on the other hand not only gets the same percentage of regeneration per piece but also a percentage of cost reduction.

There is no way to make those two resources on par with the current game design no matter how many tricks you think you can throw at it. Parity does not exist between stam consumption and Magika consumption. Nerfing magika is not the answer either and nobody has been suggesting this. Nerfing only pisses people off and bridges the gap poorly.

Personally I would like to hear from the design person as to what rationale they had for designing stam the way they did and how they thought there would be any resemblance of parity. I am constantly scratching my head trying to figure this out and the answer eludes me.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Im satisfied with the way I deal damage with magicka, but when I first played nightblade in beta I honestly thought it was going to be viable to use stamina abilities as a main source of damage. I still get to be "melee" because veiled strike ands killers blade are melee range moves, but they use magicka and it just feels off. It forces me to max out spell damage leaving my bow abilities much weaker . They could make nightblade melee moves use weapon damage instead of spell power and that would probably help stamina become more viable. They already use weapon crit instead of spell crit so its not that crazy.

Baphomet

Tweaks to medium and heavy armor passives would go a long way in order to make stamina more reliable. Especially the heavy armor passives should receive a big boost so that melee attacks do a lot more damage when in a lot of heavy armor.

Obscure

@Baphomet
Agreed. Heavy Armor should be for the tougher aspects of mundane Stamina usage (reduced CC break cost, reduced block cost, reduced bash cost) in addition to allowing for substantially higher base damage from its Juggernaut passive.

Medium Armor should be for the evasive aspects of mundane Stamina usage (reduced sprint cost, reduced dodge cost, reduced sneak cost) in addition to allowing for substantially higher critical hit rates and Stamina recovery.

Both are almost good enough as they are, with medium armor being vastly better than heavy, and light being vastly better than both. Stamina based abilities should, across the board, have their damage increased by 15-20%, and they should consider making the following tweaks:

Suggested Medium Armor Tweaks:
Agility- in addition to the attack speed boost, this passive also reduces Stamina recovery time by 1 second.
Dexterity- increased to 4% bonus critical rate per piece of medium armor.
Evasion- in addition to the dodge chance, this active also increases critical rate by 15% for weapon skills.

Suggested Heavy Armor Tweaks:
Bracing- in addition to the block cost reduction, this passive also reduces CC break and bashing costs by 20%.
Constitution- in addition to the health recovery, this passive also increases the Armor soft cap by 4% per piece of heavy armor.
Juggernaut- increased to 3% bonus weapon damage per piece of heavy armor.

In addition to tweaking armor we should also tweak the weapon skill lines to be more proficient with a singular mundane Stamina usage. One handed and Shield already does this with blocking and bashing, so how about we look at Bow, Dual Wielding, and Two Handed:

Suggested Bow tweaks:
Ranger- in addition to cost reduction of Bow skills, this passive also reduces the cost of dodging by 20%.
Hasty Retreat- increased movement speed bonus duration to 3 seconds, and in addition this passive also increases dodge distance by 2m.

Suggested Dual Wield tweaks:
Controlled Fury- in addition to cost reduction of Dual Wield skills, this passive also reduces the cost of sneaking by 20%.
Sparks- enemies effected by this skill and it's morphs are considered vulnerable for the Ruffian passive only.

Suggested Two Handed tweaks:
Balanced Blade- in addition to cost reduction of Two Handed skills, this passive also reduces the cost of sprinting by 20%.
Battle Rush- functionally changed from 30% Stamina recovery for 10 seconds, to 30% cost reduction of all Stamina based skills for 10 seconds after killing an enemy.

In my opinion the above tweaks, especially the Agility passive tweak, will bring the balance in line between the resources.

murklor007neb18_ESO

The most critical flaw is the triple dipping IMO. Well, quad dipping actually - running, dodging, sneaking, damage. Err... Well running, dodging, blocking, sneaking, damage. What's that, penta dipping?

The very idea that you have to choose between dodging or using your damage skills is absolutely ridiculous. As a game that's all about dps... Its obvious where that is going. And that's ignoring the buggy dodge itself, which doesnt really avoid the damage or provide any other bonus. All it does is drain your stamina.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

well it doesn't avoid damage but it allow to quickly get out of red circle when to far from the edge to just walk out

Aoifesan

Constitution- in addition to the health recovery, this passive also increases the Armor soft cap by 4% per piece of heavy armor.

this does next to nothing for you as the soft cap is only where diminishing returns begins.

c6603

All skills should use mana, that would solve alot in an easy way.

Supersun

Aoifesan wrote: »

Constitution- in addition to the health recovery, this passive also increases the Armor soft cap by 4% per piece of heavy armor.

this does next to nothing for you as the soft cap is only where diminishing returns begins.

Think he's saying that the original softcap number still gives the 30% reduction, but the actual point of diminishing returns is moved up making it easier to reach the hard cap with less armor necessary and would increase the your armor up until that hard cap since less of it is being affected by diminishing returns.

steinernein

None of you guys actually play stamina based builds or weapon builds do you?

seaef

I found my stamina issues cleared up by using only heavy attacks + skills.
I tested both in a 10-seond period. Using heavy attacks + skills brought me down to 20% on my stamina bar. Using light attacks + skills in a similar 10-second period used up all of my stamina before the fight was over every time.

Obscure

Aoifesan wrote: »

Constitution- in addition to the health recovery, this passive also increases the Armor soft cap by 4% per piece of heavy armor.

this does next to nothing for you as the soft cap is only where diminishing returns begins.

This does wonders for full heavy specs as their armor will be effected 28% less by the soft cap (-35%), thus getting to the hard cap (-50%) is 28% more efficient. This gives the player more breathing room in their Tank build to use spell/feat cost reduction gear options once they arrive at the hard cap at which further armor stacking is cut in half anyways. It's not meant to increase current armor values for heavy armor users, it's meant to make it easier on a heavy armor users to get those numbers so they can have more room to spec for other things.

pecheckler

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

tripple stamina regen
half the stamina cost

sounds good

If stamina costs were halved and regen doubled then a two-handed player could use immovable and then critical rush about 25 times in 30 seconds and not run out of stamina. Could bounce around PvP like a pinball.

Booba

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

The most critical flaw is the triple dipping IMO. Well, quad dipping actually - running, dodging, sneaking, damage. Err... Well running, dodging, blocking, sneaking, damage. What's that, penta dipping?

The very idea that you have to choose between dodging or using your damage skills is absolutely ridiculous. As a game that's all about dps... Its obvious where that is going. And that's ignoring the buggy dodge itself, which doesnt really avoid the damage or provide any other bonus. All it does is drain your stamina.

What if we had a new skill line under World group called say 'Athletics' that would reward you on using dodge/sprint and other stuff related to stamina. That skill line could have some passives that would decrease costs of those moves or give you some bonuses on their successful use.

Imagine we have a skill that would reduce stamina cost of sprinting for 4sec (or whatever small number) by X after you dodgeroll. That would allow you to close the gap after you dodged a nasty aoe.

Another one that is on my mind is something like a counter attack:
Let a succesful block give you reduced stamina cost on next attack. Let this buff even stack, so you could throw a free puncture after holding against a group of mobs. But this doesn't seem to fit under athletics.

The general idea is to make more use of dodges sprints and blocks in skills as long as they require resources.