penetration vs crit traits. what is better for dps?

Kronosphere

anyone done any tests to see what is better for dps out of precise or sharpened traits? both apply to spells as well as wep skills and basics but i havent a friend on another aliiance to test it with

TLDR:
is 7% spell/wep crit better or is 14% spell/armor penetration better for dps?

taylorwilenskiub17_ESO

I would also like to know this

Dimmur

I haven' tested, but lets start by thinking about it theoretically:

Crit normally adds 50% damage, so +7% crit means average of +3.5% damage.

If we assume barely overcharged spell resistance and armor, they normally reduce 40% damage. Reducing that by 14% means that damage is reduced 34.4% instead. Theoretically +5.6% damage. So, penetration is better assuming target has overcharged or nearly overcharged SR/Armor.

(Crit is better if target has low SR/Armor)

Kronosphere

Thanks Dimmur really helpful

what would the % be if they had 30% mitigation?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Problem is that mobs have almost no armor, we are talking 7 to 15% damage resistance.

In that light penetration becomes irrelevant, only thing that counts is to maximize the raw damage you do. Even with the 75% armor reduction mark NBs use the damage on veteran mobs only increase by about 5%.

It is only in pvp that penetration has any use and then again you use spells for 90% of the damage you do in pvp.

Dimmur

4.2%
Theoretically equally good at 25% and Crit is better at under 25%

Kronosphere

awesome this has helped alot. so pvp always go sharpened but pve crit is the way to go!

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Dimmur wrote: »

4.2%
Theoretically equally good at 25% and Crit is better at under 25%

Not really, I do 1485 damage with my starter on V4 mobs, if I put a 75% penetration mark on them the damage increase to 1615.....

That is 75% penetration, compare that to the damage increase from crits.

Penetration is one of those traits that is more or less utterly useless, there really is only two good traits for dps and that is precise on weapons and infused on armor.
Infused means that your magicka and stamina enchants give more bonuse, the higher your total in those the more damage you do, precise give crit chance with is pure dps boost.

Nuitar

I'd argue that mark / penetration has its uses in PVP - often times mobs have very low armor/spell resist to start.

Kronosphere

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Dimmur wrote: »

4.2%
Theoretically equally good at 25% and Crit is better at under 25%

Not really, I do 1485 damage with my starter on V4 mobs, if I put a 75% penetration mark on them the damage increase to 1615.....

That is 75% penetration, compare that to the damage increase from crits.

Penetration is one of those traits that is more or less utterly useless, there really is only two good traits for dps and that is precise on weapons and infused on armor.
Infused means that your magicka and stamina enchants give more bonuse, the higher your total in those the more damage you do, precise give crit chance with is pure dps boost.

u forget tho dont count anything more than the 7% crit. the penetration applies every signle hit 100% thats why they are competitive

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Kronosphere wrote: »

u forget tho dont count anything more than the 7% crit. the penetration applies every signle hit 100% thats why they are competitive

A 7% penetration bonus against a standard V4 mob give you 0.5% damage bonus.....

Compared to 7% chance to do +50%

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Nuitar wrote: »

I'd argue that mark / penetration has its uses in PVP - often times mobs have very low armor/spell resist to start.

Marks are very good overall since its a damage bonus but the buff you get from killing an enemy with the mark on them give you a better damage bonus than the mark itself.

In pvp it does give a substantial damage bonus but the psychological effect of having that red mark on you is even more important, it does make healers and casters seek cover making them less effective.

Kronosphere

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

u forget tho dont count anything more than the 7% crit. the penetration applies every signle hit 100% thats why they are competitive

A 7% penetration bonus against a standard V4 mob give you 0.5% damage bonus.....

Compared to 7% chance to do +50%

thats nice only legendary crit gives 7% legendary penetration gives 14% pen so its 1 extra damage per hit by your math

regardless. its already been stated that crit is likely better for pve and pen better pvp

Dimmur

Some calculation with the example mob numbers given by nikolaj:

1650 -10% = 1485
1650 -2.5% = 1615

It seems that this example mob above had only about 10% mitigation.
75% penetration mark reduced that to 2.5%.
Damage was increased about +8.5%

Because it had only 10% SR/Armor (under 25%), 7% crit is better than 14% penetration.

If mobs generally have under 25% SR/Armor, crit is indeed better in PVE.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Dimmur wrote: »

Some calculation with the example mob numbers given by nikolaj:

1650 -10% = 1485
1650 -2.5% = 1615

It seems that this example mob above had only about 10% mitigation.
75% penetration mark reduced that to 2.5%.
Damage was increased about +8.5%

Because it had only 10% SR/Armor (under 25%), 7% crit is better than 14% penetration.

If mobs generally have under 25% SR/Armor, crit is indeed better in PVE.

I have never ever seen any mobs including boss mobs with more than 15% damage reduction.

Kronosphere

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Dimmur wrote: »

Some calculation with the example mob numbers given by nikolaj:

1650 -10% = 1485
1650 -2.5% = 1615

It seems that this example mob above had only about 10% mitigation.
75% penetration mark reduced that to 2.5%.
Damage was increased about +8.5%

Because it had only 10% SR/Armor (under 25%), 7% crit is better than 14% penetration.

If mobs generally have under 25% SR/Armor, crit is indeed better in PVE.

I have never ever seen any mobs including boss mobs with more than 15% damage reduction.

dude do u not understand what we are saying??? PvP means PLAYER versus PLAYER/ PLAYERS (that is you or I) usually have well beyond 20-25% even light armor peeps. hence we are simply saying penetration is just better for pvp nothing else.

if u dont understand that i give up on u buddy

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Kronosphere wrote: »

if u dont understand that i give up on u buddy

You never said you were looking for a pvp answer.

Dimmur

No need to argue guys
It's great info that mobs have so low SR/Armor.

Darastix

Dimmur wrote: »

No need to argue guys
It's great info that mobs have so low SR/Armor.

Its the penetration, its get people worked up.

Kronosphere

^ this

and i never said i was asking for a pve answer either