Stop messing with the Nightblade class, that isn't the problem.

Gern_Verkheart

The real problem with NB's is not their class (although that has some kinks in it), their class abilities are great, and deliver amazing single target DPS, but that right there is the problem: those are their class abilities, which means they use magicka.

The problem with NB's is the same problem with every other class: medium armor and melee weapon attacks are down right terrible.

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content. Also, stamina based AOE damage abilities are all very weak, and high AOE damage is absolutely necessary in veteran group content.

If Zenimax fixes medium armor and melee weapon skills, they will have fixed the Nightblade class.

Medium armor needs to have some means of reducing the magicka cost of class abilities. This would help stamina based builds in that they can use their CC's and class based survival abilities, but will still prohibit these abilities from having the raw power of a full magicka based build, thus achieving more balance.

There needs to be stamina based AOE CC. This should have been in the fighters guild tree, similar to how the mage guild tree has one of the best AOE CC abilities in the game. It seems to me like it would have been a no brainer to give the fighter's guild a stamina based counterpart.

Lastly: stamina based AOE damage attacks ("cleave," "whirling blades," "bombard") need to be buffed. Plain and simple.

frwinters_ESO

I use Medium armor for crits and stealth. I do lots of damage and crit a lot and use the shadow mudus for crit damage. Boom stuff dies.

In PvP the stealth bonus saves my life more time then none. also a khajitt so its even better. Even those with magelights need to get pretty close to find me. With Siphoning strikes, doesnt matter if I use more stamina or magica, I get it returned rather well.

Gern_Verkheart

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I use Medium armor for crits and stealth. I do lots of damage and crit a lot and use the shadow mudus for crit damage. Boom stuff dies.

In PvP the stealth bonus saves my life more time then none. also a khajitt so its even better. Even those with magelights need to get pretty close to find me. With Siphoning strikes, doesnt matter if I use more stamina or magica, I get it returned rather well.

First off, what level are you? Everything I just mentioned applies to end game content, which is where it counts.

Second: Everything that you just described is single target DPS, which I never said NB, or any other class were bad at. It's groups of Mobs in high level veteran content where any class running a stamina build is going to have a very tough time.

Dayv

I agree mostly, stamina based abilities need to do more damage, but I don't have a problem with magicka based CC as long as long as its magicka cost for its duration isn't too expensive. Also the only thing close to an AoE CC is Aspect of Terror and its morphs which when used by a melee character against a ranged mob is of dubious utility.

Mablung

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I use Medium armor for crits and stealth. I do lots of damage and crit a lot and use the shadow mudus for crit damage. Boom stuff dies.

In PvP the stealth bonus saves my life more time then none. also a khajitt so its even better. Even those with magelights need to get pretty close to find me. With Siphoning strikes, doesnt matter if I use more stamina or magica, I get it returned rather well.

First off, what level are you? Everything I just mentioned applies to end game content, which is where it counts.

While I don't disagree with you in your initial post, why is this relevant only for end game Nightblades? It should matter no matter what level you are playing the class at. Balance and fixes are just that. They do not apply only to 'end game' builds.

Worstluck

The class also needs help. We have way too many worthless skills. It's funny, on my DK I take most of my class skills, because well, most are useful in some situation. Skills like Summon Shade, Blur, Haste, among others, are completely useless and overshadowed by other skill lines that are available to everyone. Not to mention that only one morph (veil of blades) of our ultimates is good, the rest are subpar. So while I agree that stamina builds need serious attention, many of the class skills of the Nightblade do too.

methjester

Does Op know about nightblade's multiple broken/bugged class skills? I would suggest looking that up, it's the 400 reply 20k view NB thread. Then maybe come back and edit your rant.

Bromburak

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content.

Well then use your class skills ... Why would you need CC with stamina?

If you want to survive long fights you go siphoning combined with Aspect terror or mass hysteria with buff and heal support on the other slot anyway.

You cannot drive insane DPS peaks while CC. Why do you think we have leeching strikes? To fight and survive a very long time with malus to damage.

You cant drive DPS peaks and be last man standing on a long run ...

ESO is not a god mode game for casuals, L2P.

Beretic

just throw NB a bone alreadh and let them do what their supposed to. DPS. Also revamp their passives. most of them suck.

Gern_Verkheart

Mablung wrote: »

While I don't disagree with you in your initial post, why is this relevant only for end game Nightblades? It should matter no matter what level you are playing the class at. Balance and fixes are just that. They do not apply only to 'end game' builds.

Im not saying the changes would only affect the endgame, I'm saying the problems only are apparent in end game because up until the higher veteran zones nightblades, and stamina builds in general, feel OP. Right up until you hit the vet zones you can one shot most mobs from stealth, solo most world bosses, and just plain rofflestomp groups of mobs. But when you try to solo just a regular group of 3 mobs in a vet zone as any class with a stamina focused build, it becomes very much apparent that you are painfully under-powered.

Worstluck wrote: »

The class also needs help. We have way too many worthless skills. It's funny, on my DK I take most of my class skills, because well, most are useful in some situation. Skills like Summon Shade, Blur, Haste, among others, are completely useless and overshadowed by other skill lines that are available to everyone. Not to mention that only one morph (veil of blades) of our ultimates is good, the rest are subpar. So while I agree that stamina builds need serious attention, many of the class skills of the Nightblade do too.

You are absolutely right, there are a lot of useless class skills on a NB. There are also a lot of very good abilities. However, even if they fix all of them, and every one of the NB's class abilities become awesome, that will only exacerbate the problem I have been attempting to shed light on: a stamina focused build is not a viable option.

If all the NB's class skills are fixed, then we will still have to wear cloth and roll a "warlock" type build centering around stacking magicka if we want to be a viable asset to a dungeon or raid group.

methjester wrote: »

Does Op know about nightblade's multiple broken/bugged class skills? I would suggest looking that up, it's the 400 reply 20k view NB thread. Then maybe come back and edit your rant.

I'm not talking about glitches or bugs. That is an entirely different issue. I am talking about skills that are working exactly as they were designed to, and still not being a viable option.

Bromburak wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content.

Well then use your class skills ... Why would you need CC with stamina?

If you want to survive long fights you go siphoning combined with Aspect terror or mass hysteria with buff and heal support on the other slot anyway.

You cannot drive insane DPS peaks while CC. Why do you think we have leeching strikes? To fight and survive a very long time with malus to damage.

You cant drive DPS peaks and be last man standing on a long run ...

ESO is not a god mode game for casuals, L2P.

The entire point of my post went completely over your head. Every one of the abilities you just mentioned are great abilites, I'm not saying that they are not, but they all use magicka. There are no stamina based abilities in the game that come close to the effectiveness of any magicka based ability. This means that medium armor is useless, and if you want to be an effective Nightblade, you have to wear light armor and be this "warlock" type build, which is not why most of us started playing the Nightblade; we want to be able to wear medium armor, use dual wield abilities and a bow, and still be just as effective as a cloth wearing caster, plain and simple.

Also, yes you can reach "DPS peaks" while using CC. I do it all the time on my sorcerer by using the CC ability from the mages guild tree.

Tannakaobi

I agree that weapons are weak in comparison to class skills.

But I have good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build that is also a NB, although I use the term stamina based lightly as it's more of a health & stamina regen build.

My build is 7 medium and a 2H weapon. All my points into Health and much of my armor is stamina boosting.

My skills are:

Funnel Health - Stampede - Carve - Killer's Blade - Shadowy Disguise & Veil of Blades as my ultimate.

The idea is, I cast funnel health first, I then charge in with stampede. (At this point I will use Veil of Blades if I am fighting three or more) I then hit Carve and follow up with basic attacks until my target is near death. I finish as much as I can with killers blade. When targeting a new target, I recast my health funnel. then attack until near death and on to the next one. At this point the fight is almost always over, however I can go on for as long as I like with the help of my 2nd weapon. (I'll come to this)
After the fight I instantly sneak and out to maximize the refreshing shadows passive.

Using block & interrupt are key to any melee combat, but I find Shadowy Disguise works just as well if I am short on stamina. I always kill casters first and just block the heavy attacks.

Also, because I don't have much usage of mana I find I can use Shadowy Disguise followed by a heavy attack followed by Killer's Blade very quickly and repeat, as a damage boost and mana dump. The time it takes to strike a heavy attack I am invisible.

My 2nd weapon is a bow with Shadowy Disguise, Venom Arrow, Killer's Blade, Siphoning Attacks and Soul Siphon as my ultimate. I won't go too much into this, but I use this as a single target stealth sequence. Basically hit, stealth, hit, stealth, ect.. It allows me to build up my ultimate very quickly.
With Siphoning Attacks I can use this to very quickly build up my stamina or to drop mobs targeting me. (in groups)

What I like about this build is the fact that I have little to no down time in between combat. I can get to any target quickly and vanish out of combat very easily. I use Funnel Health instead of Swallow Soul because I found Swallow Soul to be over-kill for health.

Don't get me wrong. This build is not going to run 12 man trials solo. I'm sure people can kill things much quicker than me although while questing I usually pass people rather than being passed. I've never had complaints in groups and I never come even close to being killed without it being completely my fault. (not the builds)

But, as I said. I agree that weapons are weak in comparison to class skills, it would be nice to boost them because, not only would I hit harder, but it would allow for more variation within each class.

I would like a duel wielding sorcerer. I have visions of combining bolt and whirling blades to devastating effect. But, meh!

Worstluck

Tannakaobi wrote: »

I would like a duel wielding sorcerer. I have visions of combining bolt and whirling blades to devastating effect. But, meh!

I tried to make an Orc Sorcerer into a dual wielding Shaman from WoW to try to relive the days of winfury, but alas, it didn't go well...

methjester

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I'm not talking about glitches or bugs. That is an entirely different issue. I am talking about skills that are working exactly as they were designed to, and still not being a viable option.

That actually is THE point. Nightblades may actually be a viable class. However, at least half of our class skills are broken so we just don't know. I'm sure we will still be behind DK's and Sorc's after the fix (which won't come), but until then there's just no way to tell exactly what fully functional class skills will do for us. I agree that stamina builds suck, but I would like to see what working class skills before they tweak weapon skills to empower other classes.

As for now, I'm sick of not being considered because I'm a NB.

Gern_Verkheart

methjester wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I'm not talking about glitches or bugs. That is an entirely different issue. I am talking about skills that are working exactly as they were designed to, and still not being a viable option.

That actually is THE point. Nightblades may actually be a viable class. However, at least half of our class skills are broken so we just don't know. I'm sure we will still be behind DK's and Sorc's after the fix (which won't come), but until then there's just no way to tell exactly what fully functional class skills will do for us. I agree that stamina builds suck, but I would like to see what working class skills before they tweak weapon skills to empower other classes.

As for now, I'm sick of not being considered because I'm a NB.

That will still not address the problem I have been talking about. NB, and any other class, will still be restricted to wearing cloth, and being a caster type DPS if they want to be viable in end game content.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

The real problem with NB's is not their class (although that has some kinks in it), their class abilities are great, and deliver amazing single target DPS, but that right there is the problem: those are their class abilities, which means they use magicka.

The problem with NB's is the same problem with every other class: medium armor and melee weapon attacks are down right terrible.

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content. Also, stamina based AOE damage abilities are all very weak, and high AOE damage is absolutely necessary in veteran group content.

If Zenimax fixes medium armor and melee weapon skills, they will have fixed the Nightblade class.

Medium armor needs to have some means of reducing the magicka cost of class abilities. This would help stamina based builds in that they can use their CC's and class based survival abilities, but will still prohibit these abilities from having the raw power of a full magicka based build, thus achieving more balance.

There needs to be stamina based AOE CC. This should have been in the fighters guild tree, similar to how the mage guild tree has one of the best AOE CC abilities in the game. It seems to me like it would have been a no brainer to give the fighter's guild a stamina based counterpart.

Lastly: stamina based AOE damage attacks ("cleave," "whirling blades," "bombard") need to be buffed. Plain and simple.

I agree with you that the NB is strong if played correct. I can pretty much take anyone 1v1 even higher rank DKs. If i open with a suprise attack sneak attack i never lose. As for medium armor, it actually works very well with melee NB. All those melee NB class skills are actually based off of weapon crit so the 21% from medium armor is actually effecting teleport strike, vielled strike, ect. Even tho they are magika abilities.

The only problem is the another 3 classes are so heavily effected by magika and use minimal weapon abilities. medium armor has no resist to magika. So after the sneak attack you need to finish them off fast or get really good and timing blocks and interupts. i think that is the main problem with NB players, they dont block critical attacks or interupt. Also learning to do a heavy knock down attack when your target is Off balance is another key.


EDIT the other thing i forgot to mention is that since the otehr classes are mostly magika based breaking out of CC and losing stamina hardly effects them. As for NBs losing half your stamina is a very big deal

methjester

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I'm not talking about glitches or bugs. That is an entirely different issue. I am talking about skills that are working exactly as they were designed to, and still not being a viable option.

That actually is THE point. Nightblades may actually be a viable class. However, at least half of our class skills are broken so we just don't know. I'm sure we will still be behind DK's and Sorc's after the fix (which won't come), but until then there's just no way to tell exactly what fully functional class skills will do for us. I agree that stamina builds suck, but I would like to see what working class skills before they tweak weapon skills to empower other classes.

As for now, I'm sick of not being considered because I'm a NB.

That will still not address the problem I have been talking about. NB, and any other class, will still be restricted to wearing cloth, and being a caster type DPS if they want to be viable in end game content.

So you want to buff weapon and armor skills? That will give every other class a buff as well leaving us further behind. Nothing they have done so far leads me to believe they are remotely capable of adding anything new so... Fix Nightblade skills first, buff them whatever... then tweak. They have to get stuff working the right way before they can even begin to balance the class.

Believe me, I want an instant fix but you need to start at square one. Square one is fix the broken NB class skills, not introduce new mechanics.

Psycotic_Skitz

My Bow welding Summing Soc Can take down a harvester Before heal orbs can take effect , Yet My NB (with same Stats,Items and Armour ) struggles!
So Much For The 1v1 Class.

Reykice

Bromburak wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content.

Well then use your class skills ... Why would you need CC with stamina?

If you want to survive long fights you go siphoning combined with Aspect terror or mass hysteria with buff and heal support on the other slot anyway.

You cannot drive insane DPS peaks while CC. Why do you think we have leeching strikes? To fight and survive a very long time with malus to damage.

You cant drive DPS peaks and be last man standing on a long run ...

ESO is not a god mode game for casuals, L2P.

100% this... everyone expects to just make a build and do well... ESO is an Old School MMO, where you must actually be a decent player to do well, bashing a few keys only does so much.

ZENIMAX will fix the NB but they can`t just come out and say "hey guys... learn to play" so we are saying it for them. No offense intended... it is what it is.

They should help every class with guides to decent builds.... even if the builds will not be "the way people expect the class to be" like a melee sorc with self healing or a caster NB...

Psycotic_Skitz

Learn To Play?
You Kinda Miss My point !!!!!!
Yes i can take down a Harvester!!!!!!!!!
Ive Learnt HOW !
But My Soc Can take it down Before the Heal ORBs, But My ASS NB ( the Class built for 1v1) can't !
Learnt to Understand POST Moron !!!!!

Reykice

And yet the NB will do more dps compared to a Sorc... go figure... with mostly class skills used.

Could it be that they can actually do single target dps but people never use those builds? Oh my...

Psycotic_Skitz

Yet most STATs Say different.!!!!!!
Yet i can Killl a Harvester Before He heals With My Soc,!!!I
STILL YOU MISS THE POINT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Baphomet

Heard a guildie of mine saying that his base weapon damage is 177 and his crit chance is 40%. 100% if he uses his potions. With those numbers he is out dps-ing many abilties just by using his light attacks - thanks to a high stamina and medium armor.

Psycotic_Skitz

I wish that was the facts, yet my Soc
summoner /bow)can take down a harvester before a heal orb , faster than my nb bow/dw

badmojo

The siphoning ultimate Soul Tether is an AoE CC. Not the best radius, but it's really effective for me.

Gern_Verkheart

You all talk like zenimax's entire dev team consists of just one guy. I am certain they are capable of working on more than one thing at a time, and do. They can work on bugs and balancing class mechanics at the same time, and I would be willing to bet that they have one team devoted to working on all game bugs, including class bugs, and a different team working on the class mechanics.

poochie

Problem with NB is crit damage just isn't there. I'm only like 32% weapon crit for both bows I use and I really don't see the crits happening. Being VR9 I'm struggling just to take on 2 mobs because the damage just isn't there. My gear needs to be upgraded but don't want to make stuff just to end up at VR10 making new stuff. Shadowy Disguise does not work because when fighting mobs if I use it 4x in a row it only works 25% so I die because the mobs still run up to me power attacks or throwing daggers or spells.

Bromburak

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Every one of the abilities you just mentioned are great abilites, I'm not saying that they are not, but they all use magicka.


There are no stamina based abilities in the game that come close to the effectiveness of any magicka based ability.

Thats true, but in case of Nightblade class line thats fine.
This means that medium armor is useless, and if you want to be an effective Nightblade, you have to wear light armor and be this "warlock" type build, which is not why most of us started playing the Nightblade; we want to be able to wear medium armor, use dual wield abilities and a bow, and still be just as effective as a cloth wearing caster, plain and simple.

We all know about missing stamina lines in this game and bad weapon balancing. More lines will come , passives are re worked and as well armor types will be adjusted in a future patch. But this was not about those improvements and balancing it was about class skills.

You want it all, DPS, survival and CC shared with stamina so your magicka is not being hurt for being more overpowered. And i am sorry but its common sense that we are not getting a god mode patch for a reason!

Also, yes you can reach "DPS peaks" while using CC. I do it all the time on my sorcerer by using the CC ability from the mages guild tree.

You don't reach peaks on a long run if you have no combat reg abilities like sorc or NB. As well you cannot mix classes and their skills, because they all have advantages and disadvantages and most of you guys don't see the whole picture or trying to copy certain mechanics from class A to class B but this does not work.

Back to your example:
Volcanic rune has a cast time (ground target). You cannot compare this
to NB Aspect of Terror/Mass hysteria because those skills are instant right at your spot , this is a huge advantage for NB.

If you want to AOE in Vet content, you don't understand the strength of the NB class.

As NB you always pick single targets and they fall pretty quick and 90% of your fights you don't even take damage because of smart cloaking and stun locks.
If you don't like it, no problem don't play NB class skills!

Gern_Verkheart

Bromburak wrote: »

We all know about missing stamina lines in this game and bad weapon balancing. More lines will come , passives are re worked and as well armor types will be adjusted in a future patch. But this was not about those improvements and balancing it was about class skills.

Actually, that is exactly what this has been about; I started this thread to discuss the problems with medium armor and stamina builds

Bromburak wrote: »

If you want to AOE in Vet content, you didn't understand the NB.
No problem go play Sorc or DK.

As NB you always pick single targets and they fall real quick while other classes fight all mobs for a certain time. Shortly a lot of damage are incoming.
As well most of your fights avoid damage because of smart cloaking and stun locks.

It's not a matter of want. I started a nightblade in order to play exactly the way you have described: to focus on single target damage, I didnt care about AOE damage. But the way high end veteran content is structured makes AOE damage crucial for group content. And solo questing in vet zones forces you to go up against large groups of mobs, making the need to spam AOE CC crucial, which is something a stamina build cannot do, no matter the class.

Bromburak

And solo questing in vet zones forces you to go up against large groups of mobs, making the need to spam AOE CC crucial, which is something a stamina build cannot do, no matter the class.

Well thats not really true because you could play a DW whirl wind sorc with medium armor and crit surge (crits heal you) for example and easily combine it with some active class skills that gives you great support for this kind of melee play style.

Thats why you switch gears and skills from time to time because you want to be flexible.

That counts for NB as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XboMcj5Nzkg

Ruddertail

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

And solo questing in vet zones forces you to go up against large groups of mobs, making the need to spam AOE CC crucial, which is something a stamina build cannot do, no matter the class.

I don't think I spammed AoE CC a single time in veteran content, personally.

Gern_Verkheart

Bromburak wrote: »

And solo questing in vet zones forces you to go up against large groups of mobs, making the need to spam AOE CC crucial, which is something a stamina build cannot do, no matter the class.

Well thats not really true because you could play a DW whirl wind sorc with medium armor and crit surge (crits heal you) for example and easily combine it with some active class skills that gives you great support for this kind of melee play style.

Thats why you switch gears and skills from time to time because you want to be flexible.

That counts for NB as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XboMcj5Nzkg

That video only proves my point. That nightblade is wearing cloth and only has one stamina ability on his bar.

I don't understand how you keep missing the point of this post, I think I have made it very clear: I don't believe there is anything broken about the nightblade class (other than bugs and glytches). What is broken, is stamina based builds.

The only reason the NB in that video was able to do that was because he is using shadowy disguise a lot through out the fights, which is is only able to because he is wearing cloth and clearly is using a magicka based build, just look at his magicka regen!

Go try to do that in medium armor with a stamina based build, you will be OOM after spamming shadowy disguise twice, and then you will be SOL and those mobs will stomp your face in.