Magicka/Health/Stamina balance
ShedsHisTail
✭✭✭✭✭
✭
✭
I wanted to post an observation and get a discussion going about the topic of attribute points and how they affect game play. I mentioned this briefly in another thread but sort of got ignored amongst a torrent of other discussion but I think it's valid and worth looking into more closely.
This game, in Elder Scrolls tradition, is based on three simple stats; Magicka, Health, and Stamina. How your character performs relies heavily on how you balance those attributes in respect to you various abilities. It appears commonly accepted that builds that rely heavily on Magicka are more powerful than those which rely heavily on Stamina, and Health remains fairly neutral in the equation so I'm going to effectively remove it from this conversation. Now, there are a few reasons for this:
Stamina, as a stat, is not only useful in terms of executing weapon skills and Fighters Guild abilities (I think) but it also necessary for things like Sprinting, Sneaking, Blocking and Dodging. So that, in combat, in addition to the already heavy cost of Weapon Skills, Stamina is also drained by other actions. A burden not placed on the Magicka Stat. Ultimately this results in lower damage output for Stamina based characters because their resource of choice is often consumed by non-damaging actions.
Magicka, typically provide resources for Class and Guild skills. Unlike Stamina, there is no additional burden of dodging, blocking, etc constantly pulling on your Magicka supply; though the actual resources are allocated in a fairly even fashion in regards to enchantments, and stat bonuses and such.
This, of course, comes with a couple of exceptions; those being Resto and Destro staves. Staves are the only weapons which do not rely on Stamina for their use but rather shift their resource cost to Magicka which -seems- like it would put additional burden on Magicka users; but it doesn't and here's why.
It's not a coincidence that the most complained about "over powered" builds in the game all use light-armor and some form of staff. The reason is simple, it allows the player to completely ignore the intended Magicka/Stamina balance of the game and front load everything into one stat. There is no need to maintain a balance of stats because you can easily perform all your necessary Dodging and Spinting and such with a minimally enhanced Stamina bar; so you can dump everything into Magicka granting a a greatly inflated resource pool.
This allows for much longer periods of sustained output and skill use than any character who is trying to maintain a balance between Magicka and Stamina use. I don't want to say it breaks the game because it's how the game was designed, however, I do feel like this is a pretty glaring oversight from the design division. Just from observation, I can pretty comfortably say that this imbalance in stats is present in a vast majority of the "over powered" builds that many folks are upset about.
The simple solution, it seems, would be to make Staves into a Stamina-consuming weapon like every other weapon in the game. To compensate, perhaps certain classes (I'm looking at you Sorcs) could have a passive ability which lowered Stamina costs with staff abilities, or allowed Staves to split the cost of casting between Magicka and Stamina.
Again, this is all just from observation, but I think it's valid.
/dons fire-proof suit
Go for it.
This game, in Elder Scrolls tradition, is based on three simple stats; Magicka, Health, and Stamina. How your character performs relies heavily on how you balance those attributes in respect to you various abilities. It appears commonly accepted that builds that rely heavily on Magicka are more powerful than those which rely heavily on Stamina, and Health remains fairly neutral in the equation so I'm going to effectively remove it from this conversation. Now, there are a few reasons for this:
Stamina, as a stat, is not only useful in terms of executing weapon skills and Fighters Guild abilities (I think) but it also necessary for things like Sprinting, Sneaking, Blocking and Dodging. So that, in combat, in addition to the already heavy cost of Weapon Skills, Stamina is also drained by other actions. A burden not placed on the Magicka Stat. Ultimately this results in lower damage output for Stamina based characters because their resource of choice is often consumed by non-damaging actions.
Magicka, typically provide resources for Class and Guild skills. Unlike Stamina, there is no additional burden of dodging, blocking, etc constantly pulling on your Magicka supply; though the actual resources are allocated in a fairly even fashion in regards to enchantments, and stat bonuses and such.
This, of course, comes with a couple of exceptions; those being Resto and Destro staves. Staves are the only weapons which do not rely on Stamina for their use but rather shift their resource cost to Magicka which -seems- like it would put additional burden on Magicka users; but it doesn't and here's why.
It's not a coincidence that the most complained about "over powered" builds in the game all use light-armor and some form of staff. The reason is simple, it allows the player to completely ignore the intended Magicka/Stamina balance of the game and front load everything into one stat. There is no need to maintain a balance of stats because you can easily perform all your necessary Dodging and Spinting and such with a minimally enhanced Stamina bar; so you can dump everything into Magicka granting a a greatly inflated resource pool.
This allows for much longer periods of sustained output and skill use than any character who is trying to maintain a balance between Magicka and Stamina use. I don't want to say it breaks the game because it's how the game was designed, however, I do feel like this is a pretty glaring oversight from the design division. Just from observation, I can pretty comfortably say that this imbalance in stats is present in a vast majority of the "over powered" builds that many folks are upset about.
The simple solution, it seems, would be to make Staves into a Stamina-consuming weapon like every other weapon in the game. To compensate, perhaps certain classes (I'm looking at you Sorcs) could have a passive ability which lowered Stamina costs with staff abilities, or allowed Staves to split the cost of casting between Magicka and Stamina.
Again, this is all just from observation, but I think it's valid.
/dons fire-proof suit
Go for it.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?
12
-
pecheckler✭✭✭✭✭I've redistributed stat and skill points about 10 times now and then religiously tested build efficiency with different stats. It is always a bad decision to use a build that has stamina used for damage or aggro abilities. Magicka is far superior in every category, and the restoration staff for the magicka restore alone is always a better idea then a bow as a secondary weapon.
End the tedious inventory management game.1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agreed, Stamina skills either need reduced costs enabling them to be used more often, or some buffing so they're more useful when you can use them.
But that's really only tangentially related to the imbalance at hand."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
Amsel_McKay✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand the reason the class abilities are all magic anyway? Why are some like NB and some DK abilities Stamina based? I wanted to play a tank in this game a traditional way but found that i can live and tank better with a light / mana build.
It would not be a problem in a single player game being a gimped class but in an MMO people expect min/max in groups... Hence why some of my builds I know I will only be able to solo with.Edited by Amsel_McKay on 30 May 2014 00:433 -
ErilAq✭✭✭I think the easiest (and best) option for the stamina/magicka imbalance is make the weapon lines useful and perhaps cost less (depending on how much the weapon lines get buffed.) another potential way is make certain class abilities cost stamina instead of magicka (say NB and DK stam based, Temp and sorc magicka based, of course this can be tweaked to make it suitable for all classes)Internet armchair warriors attack! Yayayayayayaaaaaah!!!!2 -
hk11✭✭✭✭Stamina is the biggest problem with classes. It's cool if you want to wear light armor and use staves. Being a male, I want to wear heavy armor and smash things in the face.
Either fix stamina or move weapon skills to magicka.7 -
0
-
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »
Why would you not continue to stack with light robes and magicka regen? You'll use it and swap it for stamina as you need it.
I'd like to see weapon damage, attack speed or weapon cost lowered.
I'd like to see more magicka-draining abilities added to NPC's (since a basic attack already takes stamina away via blocking, rolling or sprinting).
Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭21/21/7 on my Templar and 28/14/7 on my Sorcerer. I tried to do an alt with high stamina focus, but it was just miserable and caved into going back to the high magicka focus, Play any way you want my ass...4 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭The idea is to reduce the almost exponential benefits from stacking Magicka which are only available when you don't have to care about stamina. The common thread with all the"over powered" builds is their ability to completely disregard stamina, and that comes from their weapon skills relying on Magicka as much as their class skills."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?2 -
Syrrisdevlin✭✭I actually have a duel wielding dragon knight vampire hes low 30s now and hes stam based. hes great at dishing out aoe dmg with the duel wield and using the vamp drain to replenish his stam and it works great for tanking large trash spawn groups but then when the group comes to a boss I have to swap my skills a bit and my dmg drastically drops at that point because the vamp drain dont work on bosses and im conserving stam to dodge and block the bosses big hits I have started to boost his magica up via items to see if I can actually get a decent mangica pool to draw dmg from on boss fights so far its been decent but like I said hes only in his low 30s and vet content is a whole new world vs 50 and below content0 -
Forztr✭✭✭✭They could star by using magicka to block spells and stamina to block physical attacks. Then do what other games do and give you two dodges on a cooldown.
I started out with a hybrid Templar with S+B and Restor in a 5/2 Heavy/Light but finally gave up after recent changes to all light and double staff. Not what I want to play but more what I have to.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Syrrisdevlin wrote: »I actually have a duel wielding dragon knight vampire hes low 30s now and hes stam based. hes great at dishing out aoe dmg with the duel wield and using the vamp drain to replenish his stam and it works great for tanking large trash spawn groups but then when the group comes to a boss I have to swap my skills a bit and my dmg drastically drops at that point because the vamp drain dont work on bosses and im conserving stam to dodge and block the bosses big hits I have started to boost his magica up via items to see if I can actually get a decent mangica pool to draw dmg from on boss fights so far its been decent but like I said hes only in his low 30s and vet content is a whole new world vs 50 and below content
My Nightblade was a solid stamina build up into the early 40s where it started to become more of a burden than an asset. so I added a single piece of light armor, a hood, grabbed some of those passives made my action bars less reliant on weapon skills and snagged a Magicka enchant or two and everything improved dramatically."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Amsel_McKay wrote: »I don't understand the reason the class abilities are all magic anyway? Why are some like NB and some DK abilities Stamina based? I wanted to play a tank in this game a traditional way but found that i can live and tank better with a light / mana build.
It would not be a problem in a single player game being a gimped class but in an MMO people expect min/max in groups... Hence why some of my builds I know I will only be able to solo with.
The reason being that class abilities are Magicka based is for balance. Looking at how many weapons we have versus class skill lines. A DragonKnight could forgo all Magicka for a Stamina based build if their class skills were Stamina based.
Also ALL weapons Light/Heavy Attacks benefit from Stamina including Staffs.
The real issue with the 2 most overpowered classes is they are forgoing Stamina and on top of that having an almost endless supply of Magicka.
I would watch closely what happens to NightBlades after they get "fixed". If the devs are smart there might be a way to set up the NightBlade so it doesn't benefit from an endless resource pool. After that DK/Sorcerers get WRECKED by HUGE Nerfs....people wont know how to play this game at all.
Technically we DONT know how to play the game. We see what DK/Sorcerers are currently capable of and a LOT of people are excepting Templars/NB to be buffed up to their capabilities. I expect them to get nerfed to Templar status.2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭I expect them to meet in the middle.
I think big changes are in order to bring Sorcs and DKs down a notch, and Nightblades and Templars I imagine will receive buffs to raise them up a bit."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?2 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I expect them to meet in the middle.
I think big changes are in order to bring Sorcs and DKs down a notch, and Nightblades and Templars I imagine will receive buffs to raise them up a bit.
I'm expecting the same but I'm willing to bet the other poster is right about what actually happens.
Zeni has demonstrated repeatedly that they are seriously challenged at blancing a freaking 4 class game. And they seem to have this knack for breaking more than they fix when they do fix things. I'm betting the previous poster is correct. They will fix nighblade somewhat. Then in trying to tune down the dk and sorc they wind up breaking the classes. That's pretty much what's already happened with Templars isn't it? I wasn't around for beta or the first couple weeks and have only played a NB, but that's the impression I've gotten. .NBs started off broken.. Temps started off OP and just straight up got bludgeoned with the nerf bat.
It just astounds me that these people can't balance a 4 class game that has 2 basic attribute builds.
No bueno.
Edited by Fleymark on 30 May 2014 07:351 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭1.The first step is , removing the 10% damage add passive from resto line and adding it to DW and 2H or at least give them a quite similar push. Otherwise there is no reason to use any weapon skill when it comes to damage.
2.As well the new lines from Dark Brotherhood and Thieves guild must be stamina based with high costs and great abilities.
Thats my personal hope because those 2 changes would make people rethinking their used slots including resource management.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Saw something that Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild are at least a year off, no? Or after first of the year? Something.
Honestly, I'm just one player but if they don't fix stamina / weapon based builds pronto I'm going to be finding a new game to play. Love the game but I really don't want to play a light armor staff wielding nightblade unless it's just for levelling those skills briefly and fat lady is warming up on the novelty wearing off with all the constant bugs and imbalances.
And, honestly, I don't think that's a really unreasonable expectation considering they only have 4 classes and 2 basic builds to balance and we are approaching the 3rd month of the game. If they can expand the game by now they can fix half the classes and builds in the game being broken imo.Edited by Fleymark on 30 May 2014 09:000 -
Phantorang✭✭✭✭To much is dependent on Stamina, at least to block magicka abilities should cost magicka, not stamina.
Or even make block, dodge, bash, sprint, sneak and roll not dependent on stamina, but rather an independent bar called Endurance or something.Fimbulwinter Recruiting true Vikings | Campaigns score | EU PC1 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Phantorang wrote: »To much is dependent on Stamina, at least to block magicka abilities should cost magicka, not stamina.
What? Its more efficient to keep annulment up or dependent on class using a spell reflect to avoid incoming damage and returning it ...Edited by Bromburak on 30 May 2014 12:400 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually, Stamina main problem isn't just dodge/block/sprint using Stamina..
The main problem with Stamina is the fact that Heavy/Medium Armor passives are complete *** compared to Light armor Passives.
Then factor in things like Magicka has far more ways to give back Magicka then Stamina has to give Back Stamina.
There is a reason Light Armor/Staves users can spam their abilities, Because they don't run out of their resource often because they have multiple ways to get it back.
a Stamina user not only has a higher cost, but doesn't have way to constantly get back his Resource like Magicka does..
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
dc1509✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I wanted to post an observation and get a discussion going about the topic of attribute points and how they affect game play. I mentioned this briefly in another thread but sort of got ignored amongst a torrent of other discussion but I think it's valid and worth looking into more closely.
...
/dons fire-proof suit
Go for it.
I have actually posted quite decent thread regarding the stats usage.
It was blown away from the first page so fast, I couldn't imagine ...
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/104741/balance-idea#latest
My intention is to discuss this point, but it appears that I'll need to bump my thread through all the "omg/nerf/cry" threads, that are coming in at the speed of light...
PS: yes, English is not my native...
PPS: I disagree with OP regarding the subject, I think that stamina should be used for utility only, and that is the reason I have posted a link to my thread. However, the provided point is fully valid and deserves polite discussion (IMO).
Edit: added PPSEdited by dc1509 on 30 May 2014 12:47truth is born in disputes0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ShedsHisTail thank you for making a post that actually contains more than "WAAAAAAAAAA FIX IT!!!" you made some interesting points and I hope the ZOS developers are giving it a look over.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The main problem with Stamina is the fact that Heavy/Medium Armor passives are complete *** compared to Light armor Passives.
Then factor in things like Magicka has far more ways to give back Magicka then Stamina has to give Back Stamina.
There is a reason Light Armor/Staves users can spam their abilities, Because they don't run out of their resource often because they have multiple ways to get it back.
a Stamina user not only has a higher cost, but doesn't have way to constantly get back his Resource like Magicka does..
No, it depends on your playstyle as usual.
Btw. you always switch your armor sets dependent on situation.
My Sorc has a AOE DW spec with medium armor to profit from attack speed and weapon crits triggered by whirlwind. Rest is done automatically by keeping up crit surge buff for very nice passive heals.
You can combine it very well with your sorc class skills and "buffs" and its one of the builds where it actually makes sense to balance stamina and magicka.
Edited by Bromburak on 30 May 2014 12:530 -
Cybrdroyd✭✭✭They need a separate pool other than stamina for dodge and sprint, or make those things cost nothing to do, one or the other. Also, when I play a Dragon Knight, I want to use my strength and brawn and my shield and sword and heavy armor, not staves, magicka and robes. I should be able to do that and still be viable. I don't think thats the case at all.
Why can't we go back to the days of Str, Int, Dex, Wis, Con, Cha and HP and Stamina and Magicka like the old days? What was wrong with that? Why do we have to over-simplify games today? If all of these stats were implemented, then I would say that we'd have a game you could truly play your way. As it is now, thats not really the case.The road leads ever onward...2 -
Asasinka✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »Actually, Stamina main problem isn't just dodge/block/sprint using Stamina..
The main problem with Stamina is the fact that Heavy/Medium Armor passives are complete *** compared to Light armor Passives.
Then factor in things like Magicka has far more ways to give back Magicka then Stamina has to give Back Stamina.
There is a reason Light Armor/Staves users can spam their abilities, Because they don't run out of their resource often because they have multiple ways to get it back.
a Stamina user not only has a higher cost, but doesn't have way to constantly get back his Resource like Magicka does..
Absolutely, Heavy armor is pretty useless for 2H or DW because it doesn't or restore anything but health and leaves you in the middle of the fight without resources.
To utilize Medium armor you have to blend your skills to Magicka, Stamina dependent to be competitive and even that way you're running off of resources at the speed of light
I'm fighting for a higher purpose0 -
You know, this could easily be fixed by adding a third resource: Finesse. For each successful attack you gain this resource. The first attack for each of the Weapon Trees continues to use stamina. The others use Finesse, meaning you have to build it up in order to use more powerful abilities. Finesse decays over time if not used.
Stamina continues to be used to roll, block and break CC. This way you don't have to do touch on attributes or greatly change game mechanics.Edited by Ralph_Damiani on 30 May 2014 13:042 -
Asasinka✭✭✭ralphdamianiub17_ESO wrote: »You know, this could easily be fixed by adding a third resource: Finesse. For each successful attack you gain this resource. The first attack for each of the Weapon Trees continues to use stamina. The others use Finesse, meaning you have to build it up in order to use more powerful abilities. Finesse decays over time if not used.
Stamina continues to be used to roll, block and break CC. This way you don't have to do touch on attributes or greatly change game mechanics.
That makes sense, it would be like revealing enemy's weak points.
But in this game special attack (that using stamina) mostly doesn't count as a hit as it doesn't take into account any weapon parameter.
It has to be redone aswell.I'm fighting for a higher purpose0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭I think they screwed up when they made all the class abilities based on Magika and scale with Magika. Basically if you want to have a good weapon/stamina build you have to rely almost 100% on that weapons attacks and quite honeslty none of them are that good if you are gimping your class skills to use them. Also as the OP said you are gimping yourself on being able to dodge/sprint/block if you use up all your stamina on weapon abilities.
I have all my attributes in to Health and Magika on every piece of equipment and I don't put anything in to Stamina. This gives me plenty of stamina for dodge rolling/blocking, leaves my class skill based damage high and gives me plenty of health to survive fights.1
