A Modest Solution to Werewolf Issues

crashen17b14_ESO

I know there are a TON of suggestion threads for werewolf abilities, so I don't feel bad adding one more. The issue I see however, is that most suggestions call for drastic overhauls of the entire way it is set up, and while I am not opposed to that, I don't think it is very likely.

With that in mind, I have a few simple ideas that might help.
1. Reduce the base ultimate cost to 500, with higher ranks (and passives) reducing it further, probably to 400-350.
2. Cause the passives to either fully benefit human form as well as werewolf form, or give half bonus.
3. And here is where I start getting slightly original. A. Make both light and heavy attacks cleave, hitting multiple enemies, as per the heavy weapon's passive.
4. Give fully charged heavy attacks a 50% (numbers are suggestions, they can be tweaked as needed) chance to disorient and set the enemy off balance for a few seconds, just long enough for maybe a half-charged heavy attack.
5. Add a new ability, Frenzy. Frenzy strikes 3-4 enemies in a wide arc in front of the werewolf, and adds several seconds to the duration of werewolf form, per target hit, or it pauses the timer.

Morph 1 - Ravaging Hunger- now applies a (limited) stacking HoT on the werewolf, increased by the number of targets hit. Nothing insane, but enough to help sustain the werewolf during combat. This ability would be the 'safer' and more reliable alternative to:
Morph 2 - Frenzied Assault - A bit more creative, adds stacking max health to the werewolf, per target hit, for several seconds, with the duration being refreshed each time it hits. The idea behind this, is that the longer the werewolf fights, the stronger it gets, but if it stops attacking, that health is lost. This adds a certain degree of intensity to the combat, strengthening the werewolf but also giving it a reasonable disadvantage. Also note, the time does not increase. It remains at something short, like 10 seconds, though that is just a spitball number.

6. Add another new ability, possibly tying both new abilities to Berserker and Packleader morphs respectively: Howl at the Moon- Summons two wolves to your side, fighting as temporary (untargettable, like the summoned shades) pets for X amount of time. Each time they attack, they add several seconds to the duration of your werewolf form.

Morph 1 - Rabid Wolves - Summoned wolves apply a stacking armor debuff, as well as a bleed, on their targets.
Morph 2 -Chorus of the Hunt - Summoned wolves periodically howl, increasing movement speed and physical/magical power of the group by some amount.

Further, both morphs also add several seconds to the werewolf duration, when the abilities are used. This is to compensate for travel time of the wolves, as well as justify the 10-15 second duration of said wolves.

The idea behind these abilities is to flesh out the werewolf tree better, so we have more than just a lame pounce and a semi-useful fear. They also make it easier to remain in werewolf form longer, without totally undermining the idea behind a long build up to transformation. Additionally, they are meant to help with the identity of the two werewolf morphs. The berserker is all about frenzied, intense, immediate assault. Staying in combat and attacking relentlessly just to survive a little bit longer. While the packleader is about group utility and bringing something extra to the team. I also felt that given the amount of control in this game, werewolves having next to nothing seemed odd. Heavy attacks with the werewolf, as they currently stand, kinda suck, so I thought I would make them a bit more desirable. The most important idea though, was how modular these changes are. They don't so much revamp the werewolf, as add a couple core abilities that address the issues.

Also note, I didn't really think about the pack leader's wolves all that much, hence the ideas being a bit more bland.

Brittany_Joy

This still counts as a drastic overhaul lol. The only thing I do not like are the summon wolves ability because it wastes an opportunity to have more badass werewolf abilities that make you feel like a beast. The werewolf skill line should not have abilities wasted on summoning magic. Instead the werewolf skill line should be about being a rabid beast! I want abilities that reduces all damage taken so I can have a tough hide to survive multiple enemies while trying to hunt down my preferred prey. I also want a heal similar to Hunter's Wind from Morrowind.

Hircine blesses his loyal hounds. So I want to see some augmented abilities given as a gift for being loyal to Hircine. Such as our claws ignoring armor.

Cyandvai

I would be happy if while in human form, WW gets a buff to Health regen (in and out of combat) and a boost to Stamina. Pursuit passive needs to cross over to humanoid form and possibly Savage Strength as well.

Razum_Khar

Probably just as drastic as everyone else's suggestions.. An idea that could remove the desire for toggled transformation, and give Werewolf players a strong incentive to play both the wolf, and the humanoid.

(NOTE: The Werewolf transform survivability, and damage may need looking at for this suggestion to be fun).

Transformation, Doesn't matter if its high, medium, low or free ultimate, click initiate at will.. Transform to wolf. (High cost ultimate may still be advantageous to properly balance the whole thing out)

Initial wolf timer increased from 30/40 seconds(approx.) to 2 minutes.
Hunt/kill as much as possible, enjoy the wolf bloodlust.

Devour everything you kill (remove or greatly reduce the internal cooldown of devour).

Allow the timer bar on wolf form to be overcharged to 15 minutes. If you eat enough you get to stay wolf for a very decent duration. (Perhaps up to 15 minutes of overcharged timer... that's a lot of devouring though).

Once you "max" out the timer to 15 minutes (just an example.. could be 10 minutes.. whatever really)... you become "Well fed", and are unable to devour anything more. So enjoy the remaining 15 minutes and then "chill out" and return to your racial/humanoid form.

However.. and this is the cool part (I think!).. Well fed gives you a massive feeling of euphoria, its basically a 1 hour duration (again.. time could be tuned) buff, that improves the core stats, making their humanoid form more powerful. During "well fed", the player is no longer able to shapeshift to werewolf, EXCEPT if they goto the Shrine of Hircine, and want/need to snack on another player to pass on the curse... Leaving the shine will deshift the player again, leaving them well fed still.

So, the player gets a nice potentially long duration wolf form.. Perhaps it takes 30 minutes of non stop devour (remember the clock is ticking all the time) to get that timer to the well fed stage... If you give up, and go back to humanoid, your free to try again after a short time (so perhaps 1k Ultimate to start the thing is still reasonable!, perhaps an internal cooldown as well)

A player might be able to stay in near permanent wolf form, by avoiding well fed, and just letting it timeout before well fed is triggered, But few players will want to stay permanently in their wolf form, because the Well Fed bonus on their humanoid form will give them bonuses to all their normal skill. IE players are rewarded for joining Hircine's hunt.

OK..

So Werewolf is supposed to be a curse, What if Werewolves are never fully satisfied by normal / provisioned foods. Normal food could have reduced durations, or even not work at all. A werewolf who never shifts, and never devours could be additionally punished with a starving debuff. Fairly easy to avoid, just shift at a convenient moment, devour a few bodies, without going all the way to well fed, and return to racial form... But just being a werewolf without using it at all.. Starving would be setup as some form of debuff, reduced stats/armour etc.

Some players may decide.. Debuffs, and having to transform occasionally just to be "normal" isn't worth the hassle.. Well they can get cured if they don't like it, and it may help the whole "not everyone should be forced to be werewolf or vampire, just being normal humanoid should be 100% viable!.


Yep.. Pretty sure this is a pretty major piece of coding.. but primarily its

2 "effects"
1 buff (well fed)
1 debuff (starving)

A tweak to the werewolf transformation timer (15 minutes max, and the transform only gives you the first 2 minutes.. so when you transform the bar is 80% empty!)

A tweak to the cooldown on devour

Additional tuning.. Well fed could occur sooner on nights of the full moon, Or even better devour simply gives 50% more time during night, and 100% more time during a full moons

Perhaps this is all just "Too much" and it doesn't even begin to touch on balancing the Werewolf form, which at mid to high veteran forms is simply underpowered, and badly performing at any ultimate cost.. So tuning would still be required for both wolf form, and the buffed and debuffed states of the racial form... But something like this would give meaning to Werewolf.. Is it a curse YES.. but its also a gift from Hircine and those who embrace the gift get the most out of it.

To be totally honest.... Players bitten by the wolf, who choose to avoid the beast at all cost, should starve to the point that a forced transformation IS required(eventually)!. Why play a cursed character if your not prepared to accept it. And by using the Werewolf fully, it would be very unlikely that any player would get forced into Werewolf form during group play. It would be a fairly minor piece of micromanagement to shift at a convenient time, gobble up enough bodies to not be starving, and then just drop the wolf form again. (Yes I know the argument, Bethesda removed forced shifting because its not "fun".. But as long as you can mitigate the risk of forced shifting, it becomes a fun feature rather than a problem.. And the player can always be cured anyway!.


A bit more fleshing out of the abilities usable in wolf form just to fill out the overall gameplay for a werewolf..

Wow.. That was an essay..

Of course if this was Skyrim... someone would just write an addon to alter the gameplay of Werewolf

@Brittany_Joy claws ignoring armor, or at least reducing armor, would probably help WW doing damage against heavy armor npc's and players without making them stupidly damaging to light armor wearers, so probably a fair idea

Well... non of this is going to happen, as unfortunately I'm not a Dev at Zenimax ! but its nice to dream.. And even if only tiny ideas from players form a seed in the mind of a developer... well that would be job done

Brittany_Joy

@Razu_Khar, in Elder Scrolls lore Lycanthropy is actually a gift instead of a curse. Hircine gave the gift of lycanthropy but some don't view it as a gift. If someone refuses Hircine's gift then Hircine will punish them and curse them. If people embrace the gift of lycanthropy then Hircine will bless them with an augmented werewolf form.

I believe the werewolf skill line should actually make the player a werewolf. The current state of the werewolf skill line 'causes too much frustration for the player and too restricting to have any fun. The high cost ultimately just makes the player another normal being who has weaknesses because of a rarely seen transformation. ZoS should encourage this shapeshifting playstyle by making the werewolf transformation a toggled ability. Shapeshifting-at-will will definitely make the skill line offer a unique playstyle and allow people to be actual werewolves instead of just another normal player with weaknesses.

Razum_Khar

I'm sure Hircine considers it a "gift", but then again he's a Daedric Prince. They are well known for their trickery, and once sided deals.

The majority of the world population of Nirn consider werewolves to be cursed criminals. I'm sure that when the Criminal Justice system is added to this game, Werewolves and Vampires better watch out. (If not its a pretty epic fail as far as Elderscrolls "lore" goes.

Sure, some Werewolf groups like the Companions Inner Circle in Skyrim have embraced the gift. But even then they are not 100% united, as they feel they cant go to Sovngarde if they are beasts.

Bloodmoon Werewolves in Solstheim(Morrowind), were moon phase locked werewolves, requiring a magic ring to have any form of manual control, and in wolf form lost health if they didn't feed!. Sounds like a fairly curse based gift to me.

From a purely gameplay point perspective, if Werewolf is a toggled form, with any duration the player wants, it wont be viable to buff it to the same level a shorter duration temporary/ultimate skill could be.

Yes in "another game" the cursed wolves managed to salvage their humanity, and be accepted by their alliance. But being a wolf was watered down to little more than a bit of eye candy. The player had access to all their regular skills, and really nothing to differentiate them from any other race. They also had no incentive to play their human forms.

Elderscrolls lore really doesn't have werewolves running around all the time in wolf form. They are shape shifters, with limited control of the form. (Skyrim was once a day, unless you had Hircines Ring).

As a player, I totally agree that the current implementation is frustrating, underpowered, and instead of feeling like blood rage, its more like a simply race against the clock, micromanaging feral pounce and devour to stay shifted as long as possible. It's not that fun.

My own Werewolf idea, while being fairly long winded to describe, offers the potential to give a bit of something to everyone, and in practice would be easy to "play". Embracing the gift (lots of devouring) rewards the player with a considerably extended duration in wolf form, while still retaining player control over when to shift, acting very much as a gift to those who embrace the hunt, and additionally granting useful bonus buffs in racial form.

But spurning the form, and just trying to use it as a passive buff, without ever shapeshifting, it would become more curse like, and for these players "cure" may be a better solution.

It's true that Werewolves are relatively common in Nirn, so there should be reasonably frequent sightings of both player and NPC Werewolves. But not an unlimited duration at will transformation imho. Then WW just becomes eye candy. I'd rather have a restricted form, with limitations, than a totally unrestricted form that was just eye candy.

IMHO players should want to be in their racial forms much of the time, even if they are Werewolves, especially if they are dealing with Quest NPC's, and trying to enter neutral towns. (A werewolf "aware" town could be fun though, where the guards turned a blind eye for example could be a fun thing, especially if it was a hub for Werewolf quests that could potentially increase our power.)

Werewolf should also have more than 10 levels. With additional powers being granted at higher levels.

Oh.. And this is slightly off topic.. But its been pointed out that balancing out Werewolf and Vampires so they are more powerful than "plain" humans is wrong. I would rather like to counter that. There are other Daedric princes who have offered gifts, and it would be fairly reasonable for a new NPC/player guild for the Vigil of Stendarr for example who are the true Supernatrual/Daedra/Vampire/Werewolf killers. The fighters guild Vamp/WW bonuses should be removed and players who want to hunter supernaturals should in fact petition to Stendarr, and get additional powers that way.. A 3rd choice of world skills. Werewolves and Vampires would be unable to join the Vigil's. (Vigils would remain 100% humanoid, but gain bonuses especially against WW/Vamp.. But they would not be "ungodly strong", just balanced properly against us).

For all I care, Zenimax could add Sheogorath worshippers all armed with a wabbajack, all in the name of "balance, choices, and play your own way"

WhitePawPrints

@Razum_Khar I like the idea of the "Well Fed" aspect of the Werewolf Transformation. Though, it'd be hard for me to give up the complete removal of the timer cap because of my adventures in Skyrim where I'd be in Werewolf form for hours after I had rampaged the map. I always imagined that all of Skyrim was put on alert for a Legendary Werewolf that has killed dozens across the forts of Skyrim.

Actually, to add to your idea, about if Well Fed kind of gave you this status across Tamriel (or zone) for the duration of Well Fed. Well Fed would give you great benefits, but your reputation has reached Werewolf hunters' ears. Some new NPC's show up randomly and try to kill you for rampaging across Tamriel (or local zone). You mentioned some sort of Stendarr organization being possible, and maybe it can be a bounty quest for players of that organization. (I mentioned something similar before of having Van Helsing type skill lines (since Fighter's Guild is too weak) with Meridia, considering she's already in game, but a fresh deity is a better idea.) Once Well Fed benefits expired, then you'd no longer be hunted by these Van Helsing types.

"A werewolf-aware town" was also mentioned and I'd like this. Some sort of Werewolf sanctuary; Dragonborn DLC for Skyrim had a pack on the Solthiem. It was a bit disappointing that there was only limited interactions with them, and they never transformed. Similar to the Companions Circle, but they were in the closet werewolves, living in Whiterun. Maybe Hircine will open a piece of his Hunting Grounds for Werewolves to hang out at... Oh! That would solve the toggle problem for roleplayers too! It'd be like Hircine's Shrine, no timer countdown in that area. Random things to hunt, as is Hircine's Realm; a plain for great hunts.

I like the ideas suggested that don't involve a complete rehaul and a short-sighted across-the-board solution. You can never appease everyone but with some brainstorming, almost every request can be applied in one form or another.

Pyatra

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

This still counts as a drastic overhaul lol. The only thing I do not like are the summon wolves ability because it wastes an opportunity to have more badass werewolf abilities that make you feel like a beast. The werewolf skill line should not have abilities wasted on summoning magic. Instead the werewolf skill line should be about being a rabid beast! I want abilities that reduces all damage taken so I can have a tough hide to survive multiple enemies while trying to hunt down my preferred prey. I also want a heal similar to Hunter's Wind from Morrowind.

Hircine blesses his loyal hounds. So I want to see some augmented abilities given as a gift for being loyal to Hircine. Such as our claws ignoring armor.

Yeah, wolves are the worst mobs you could summon, at least a swarm of leveled red mudcrabs would take more than 2 AoEs to kill. Were-Mudcrab..... yeah, that's a scary mental image.

Drachdhar

Since the frustration is building... I would be happy with anything that actually made playing a werewolf feel like playing a werewolf. A monster thats very hard to stop, can rip you apart in a second and will gobble up your tender innards to satisfy its hunger.
Lycanthropy is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing for those that embrace the beast, a curse for those that reject it. Well, in game atm its just a curse. Take 9% more dmg from every player in pvp, chance of almost insta kill from Silver Bolts... 59% more dmg from spammable bow skill numero uno - venom arrow...

Werewolves surely need a higher melee crit chance as well... Hell, melee characters overall need an easier time to buff that stat. Its real easy for ranged spellcasters after all...

Clutch

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

3. And here is where I start getting slightly original. A. Make both light and heavy attacks cleave, hitting multiple enemies, as per the heavy weapon's passive.

I'd rather see it a perk similar to Two-handed Weapons

5. Add a new ability, Frenzy. Frenzy strikes 3-4 enemies in a wide arc in front of the werewolf, and adds several seconds to the duration of werewolf form, per target hit, or it pauses the timer.

Morph 1 - Ravaging Hunger- now applies a (limited) stacking HoT on the werewolf, increased by the number of targets hit. Nothing insane, but enough to help sustain the werewolf during combat. This ability would be the 'safer' and more reliable alternative.

I like this to an extent because what I feel the ult lacks is sustain. Vampires have it, werewolves do not. Werewolves rely completely on their armor mitigation and attack ferocity - which means if some sensible player kites you, there isn't much you can do about it.

6. Add another new ability, possibly tying both new abilities to Berserker and Packleader morphs respectively: Howl at the Moon- Summons two wolves to your side, fighting as temporary (untargettable, like the summoned shades) pets for X amount of time. Each time they attack, they add several seconds to the duration of your werewolf form.

See I want the Pack Leader but I really don't want pets. I'm bias like that. I just want the ability to heal while in combat without opening myself for a heavy counter which completely undoes all my efforts. Howl At The Moon... see originally I was hoping Roar would act like a HoT in one of its morphs.

Also note, I didn't really think about the pack leader's wolves all that much, hence the ideas being a bit more bland.

Agreed and I do like one of the suggestions that make them support-oriented. The idea that the more wolves they have around them, the more they buff other wolves and the more they get a buff themselves.

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO

What would happen -IF- transforming into a Werewolf had its own HP pool. Meaning Werewolf would feel like being/fighting a Tank from L4D (left for dead) and the moment you HP drops you transform back into Human. You will still morph back to human once the duration ends aswell.

Does this help with the fact Werewolf is weaker then human form? -No
However this would atleast address an issue with the lack of self healing / sustain.

crashen17b14_ESO

The idea of Howl healing is one I like, it could be something like Dragon's Blood, where the healing scales based on how much you are hurt. As for summoned wolves, they would be like the Shades summoned by nightblades, as in enemies can neither damage nor target them and they attack first what they are summoned on, and then after that dies whatever else you are attacking.

Really the idea behind the wolves was mainly "What good is a packleader, without a pack?". They would ultimately serve the same utility, just in a different way.

The thing I have always loved about werewolves as a concept/gameplay mechanic, is that they can give you the ability to have two very different playstyles simultaneously. In Skyrim (and to an extent ESO), my werewolf was a ranged, stealth/magick based archer, relying primarily on ambush and sniping to fight. But as a werewolf, I had a sort of killswitch, that let me throw all that patience and subtlety aside for one glorious rampage of berserk, intense close combat. This way, whenever I got bored of one style, I could shift and have the other.

I called my ideas modest because they are. I am mainly talking about adding two abilities to the werewolf that fill in the gaps. It's not a *small* change, but it's a change that is more modular and (I think), easier to implement than an entire overhaul of the skill line. And that's the thing. I really don't think an entire ground-up reworking of lycanthropy is in the works. As easy as it seems to us, with our many ideas and strong opinions, that is a rather large undertaking from a developmental perspective. That's why I tried to keep my ideas as things that can be added onto the current system.

Brittany_Joy

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO wrote: »

What would happen -IF- transforming into a Werewolf had its own HP pool. Meaning Werewolf would feel like being/fighting a Tank from L4D (left for dead) and the moment you HP drops you transform back into Human. You will still morph back to human once the duration ends aswell.

Does this help with the fact Werewolf is weaker then human form? -No
However this would atleast address an issue with the lack of self healing / sustain.

Different and interesting. Never thought of sucha thing.Since it is an ultimate it would be fine to add a ton of HP for the enemies to chew through. It would also pay off the 16 skill points we have to invest. Since it increases our survivability and damage.